Mike: [00:00:05] Hello and welcome to episode eight of the How To Become A Personal Trainer podcast. We’re your host, Mike Vacanti.
Jordan: [00:00:09] My name is Jordan Syatt. We are super excited about this episode.
Mike: [00:00:12] This was a great episode: the “Workout Design for Fat Loss Pyramid.”
Jordan: [00:00:16] Basically, we give you the hierarchy of importance when it comes to how to design your workouts or your clients’ workouts for fat loss.
We hope you enjoy the episode and really quick, just a huge shout out and congratulations to everyone who joined the Fitness Business Mentorship. The sale is officially over, but we just want to give a huge shout out. Congratulations to everyone who in there and we cannot wait to get started.
Mike: [00:00:37] Congrats to everyone who got in. We’re very excited. We hope you enjoy the episode.
Jordan: [00:00:51] Hello Michael.
Mike: [00:00:52] How are you doing?
Jordan: [00:00:53] I’m good. I really think we should talk about Wild America.
Mike: [00:00:56] I don’t remember– so this afternoon I watched the movie Into The Wild, and Jordan got really excited when I told him that, but he was thinking of the movie Wild America,
Jordan: [00:01:06] Which, if you haven’t seen it– I don’t think I’ve seen it since the 90s but I think I had it on VHS.
And the only character– the person that I remember the most is the one who is on Home Improvement with Tim Allen. He’s one of his sons,
Mike: [00:01:19] Jonathan Taylor Thomas.
Jordan: [00:01:20] That was his name?
Mike: [00:01:21] Mmhm.
Jordan: [00:01:21] And, uh, I just remember it was a great movie about going into the wild and they went into a cave with bears.
Mike: [00:01:29] Wait, it might not have been Jonathan Taylor Thomas who was in that movie.
Jordan: [00:01:33] I don’t know. It was the son with the long hair– the long hair, or maybe they all had long hair. I don’t remember. I loved the Home Improvement show though, cause I remember Tim Allen, he would always be like, “HO HO HO HO HOOOO.” Do you remember that?
Mike: [00:01:46] Vaguely.
Jordan: [00:01:47] Did you ever watch that show?
Mike: [00:01:48] I mean, I’ve probably seen 11 and a half episodes of Home Improvement in my life.
Jordan: [00:01:52] Oh man, that was a great episode– that was a great show–
Mike: [00:01:54] Yeah, he had the neighbor who we looked over the fence and–
Jordan: [00:01:56] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, what was his name? And he would never see his face. You’d never see his face. It would be blocked by the fence. It’s just always like half of his face.
Mike: [00:02:04] I’m blanking on it.
Jordan: [00:02:06] I feel like it’s Peterson…no…
Mike: [00:02:10] I don’t think that’s right.
Should we just get into it?
Jordan: [00:02:14] Yeah. Or how are you, what’s going on in your life?
Mike: [00:02:17] Um, I’m very excited that Gary is considering training in the evenings instead of in the morning when he’s historically extremely tired, still half asleep, and doesn’t have high quality workouts.
And these last couple of days, he’s worked out around 6:00 or 7:00 PM and they’ve been really good training sessions.
Jordan: [00:02:39] Yeah.
Mike: [00:02:39] Uh, which has me beyond excited. Um…
Jordan: [00:02:44] I think it– it hurt him that he had the gym in his condo because it literally allowed him to wake up barely– he didn’t even put his shoes on when I would coach him, it was just like, you know the thing where you’re trying to shove your shoes on, your heels are sticking out the back?
Mike: [00:03:00] Yeah.
Jordan: [00:03:00] It’s just like, by the time he got downstairs in the gym, he had to then reput his shoes on cause they weren’t on right.
Mike: [00:03:05] Yeah.
Jordan: [00:03:05] So I think when you have to get up and go to the gym you actually have to prepare for it.
Mike: [00:03:11] Right.
Jordan: [00:03:12] Which is why at night when he’s training 6-7:00 PM he’s hyped up. He’s like loving what he’s doing, he’s in a good mood, he’s energetic, but at 6 in the morning, he’s dead.
Mike: [00:03:21] Yeah. And, and that’s a great point for anybody because it’s a common beginner question: “When should I work out? When is the best time of day to work out? When should I work out to burn the most calories?”
And the common answer that we both give is: train when you can consistently train and have quality workouts. But that’s the part that almost goes unnoticed is have quality workouts.
Jordan: [00:03:46] Yeah.
Mike: [00:03:47] Like it can be 9:00 AM it can be noon, it can be 9:00 PM, so long as it doesn’t affect your sleep, but not only do you have to be able to set the time aside and get the workout in, but you also have to be able to perform at at least a reasonable level. And I just think that goes unnoticed, um, in a lot of situations.
Jordan: [00:04:06] You know, I think this brings up a whole, like, really interesting point ’cause Gary wanted to train seven days a week. That’s what his whole– that’s what his whole goal has been. But something you said earlier that I think is really important is that if you have two amazing workouts a week, like high intensity, great effort, good volume, but really, really high-quality workouts. It’s infinitely better than five or six workouts that are all just, eh.
Mike: [00:04:35] Yup. That’s absolutely right.
Jordan: [00:04:37] And I don’t even know if I would have believed that several years ago. Recently, when I started working with Paul Carter, I told him I– and when I started doing jujitsu– ’cause I was training four or five times a week with Paul’s programs, and it’s all muscle-building focused.
But since I started doing jujitsu, I was like, I need to take it down to three times a week. I just can’t do, like, four days a week of training and three or four days a week of jujitsu. Is that going to impact my muscle growth? And he’s like, no, not at all. Which goes against a lot of the conventional wisdom in terms of much higher volume, much higher frequency, and it’s been amazing.
Like, three workouts a week, very high intensity. So, every workout is very– not intensity in terms of cardio, not like heartbeat going crazy, high intensity in terms of how much weight I’m lifting, how focused I am on actually getting stronger every week. And the results have been tremendous. It’s been great. And in addition to doing a fair amount of cardio and jujitsu, which is like, it just goes to show you, you don’t need that much, you just need a lot of high quality.
You don’t need that much– the volume is important, obviously, but you can get away with less volume if your intensity is really where it needs to be.
Mike: [00:05:45] Yes. And when Jordan says “intensity,” you mean: how close to failure you are with good enough form in a given set.
Jordan: [00:05:56] Absolutely.
Mike: [00:05:57] Because someone might think “intensity” and or hear the word “intensity” and think, “oh, in my hip-hop fitness class, I’m going for 60 minutes straight with no breaks and I’m sweating and I’m breathing hard and it’s so hard and it’s so intense, I should be building muscle as a result of that.”
“Intensity” the way we’re defining it is, uh, if you’re familiar with the, the rate of perceived exertion scale and RPE of, call it eight plus on most of your sets.
Jordan: [00:06:30] Yep. It’s gotta be at least an eight on that. Yeah. I think it’s not to say high intensity interval training or these classes aren’t intense. They’re very intense and they make you sweat a lot. But that’s why we have to define it and let it be very clear because when you’re talking about stimulating muscle growth and stimulating enough of a– not only muscle growth, but also getting a strength response and being able to improve your strength, improve your muscle, there has to be a certain level of intensity.
Now, what’s interesting is” with a beginner the intensity can be much lower and still see strength improvements and muscle improvements, but as you get more advanced as a lifter and you start actually making progress and getting better, the intensity requirements increase in order to continue to see progress.
Mike: [00:07:16] Yes, that’s an important point. Especially, uh, as coaches might go from coaching beginners to more intermediate clients to be able to pay attention to that, especially with online clients
Jordan: [00:07:30] Especially, yeah. If they’re not making progress you have to– that’s why the RPE scale is so great, because you can ask like, “where are you on this scale?”
And if they’re consistently telling you they’re six or seven or whatever, or maybe you just know through communication they’re really stressed out, they’re not sleeping enough. You might be able to understand yourself like, “Hey, they’re probably not training at high enough intensity in order to make progress.”
So, either educate them so that they know that they need to increase their intensity or understand that this moment in their life, they might not need to be going that crazy and just scale their expectations.
Mike: [00:08:02] Yeah, that’s a great point. Should we talk about– we’re kind of talking about a facet of workout design.
In this podcast, we’re going to discuss workout designed specifically for fat loss.
Jordan: [00:08:15] Yeah. I think this is one of the most common questions we get asked, and I think a lot of people, they stand to benefit from understanding sort of the hierarchy of importance when it comes to fat loss. And what Mike did was he basically drew a pyramid on the white board that we’re looking at right now.
And it’s, it’s great. We spent a little bit of time before the podcast coming up with basically our hierarchy of what you need to know, especially when you’re working out for fat loss. So, you want to start off with it?
Mike: [00:08:43] Yeah. So, at the base of the pyramid, the most important thing, and I expect– actually guess the answer if you’re listening. We’ll give you a few seconds to guess what is most important for fat loss.
Jordan: [00:08:56] Yeah. Hit pause.
Mike: [00:08:59] Nutrition. Nutrition is the most important facet of fat loss.
Um, contrary to popular belief, Jordan didn’t invent the calorie deficit.
Jordan: [00:09:11] Mike says that because I literally have had people ask me that, if I invented it. No.
Mike: [00:09:18] But regardless of what you’re doing in your training– we’re not even going to hit on this in this podcast, but the most important component of losing body fat is eating fewer calories than you burn on average, on a daily basis, and ideally getting adequate protein and eating mostly healthy foods.
Although that last part actually isn’t a requirement for fat loss, but a strong recommendation.
You know, there’s the Twinkie diet, and there’ve been countless examples of when calories are controlled for regardless of food quality, an individual loses body fat. Um…
Jordan: [00:09:57] The Big Mac Challenge
Mike: [00:09:59] Exactly. Exactly. 30 days, down seven pounds, probably recomped a little bit, too.
Jordan: [00:10:06] Yeah, I mean, definitely increased strength throughout that. But yeah, I mean, I think, uh, one of the biggest misconceptions is when people say like, “so you’re recommending that you eat like an asshole?” It’s like, no. That’s like, not it, it’s just, it’s to prove a point so that people can understand it better, but we’ll talk about that in another podcast. I think the nutrition side is– obviously it’s like the base of the pyramid, it’s super important. When you’re looking at fat loss, whether it’s with clients or yourself, whatever it is, when people ask you “what is like the best workout for fat?”–
One thing I always say on Instagram, people lose their shit. They get really, like, they lose their mind when I say this, they’re like, “what’s the best workout or best exercise for fat loss?” I would say “plate pushes,” like finish eating and push your plate away from you so you can eat fewer calories. Um. That’s number one. But now if we’re going to get to the next level of the pyramid, and we’re really talking about workout design, now we have a pretty big umbrella topic, which just goes into strength training.
And it should we, should we say what the entire pyramid is first?
Mike: [00:11:05] Sure.
Jordan: [00:11:05] And then we’ll come back to it?
Mike: [00:11:06] I like that.
Jordan: [00:11:07] Got it. So, so we have nutrition as the base of the pyramid just because that is the most important. Then we go into strength training. Then we go into low intensity, steady state cardio. If you disagree, listen to the whole podcast. And by the way, if you disagree, it’s totally fine, but, at the very least, we encourage you to listen and then maybe have a discussion with us. We’re more than welcome to talk about it.
After it, low intensity, steady state. Then we go into high intensity interval training, and then on top of that, at the very peak, the very like the last possible thing that might be worthwhile for fat loss we have finishers, we have circuits, we have, uh, classes that you might go to, and metabolic conditioning type stuff. So, so we’ll go into strength training. You want to start?
Mike: [00:11:50] Yeah, absolutely.
Jordan: [00:11:51] It’s a big topic, like…
Mike: [00:11:52] It’s a huge topic. And, and the first place that my mind goes to is: when the average person, the average, like maybe gym goer, or non-gym goer, the average person who wants to lose body fat thinks about “what’s the best workout for me to lose body fat?”
Most of them are thinking, “what is the workout where I’m going to burn the most calories so I can lose the most weight and lose the most fat as a result of that workout?” And Jordan and I both very much encourage you not to think about training in that way. Um, which we’re going to talk about right here.
So. Strength training. Its purpose actually isn’t a massive caloric expenditure to build a large calorie deficit to lead to fat loss, right? We’re setting a calorie deficit based on fairly consistent nutrition, which is at the base. The purpose of strength training is: 1) to get stronger. 2) to potentially build some muscle depending on, uh, whether you’re beginner, intermediate, or advanced, and depending on many other factors like the size of the calorie deficit, um, but getting stronger, possibly building some muscle, and retaining the muscle mass that you have while losing body fat — those are going to be the main goals of why we program the way that we program.
Jordan: [00:13:26] Yup. Yeah. The way that I like to explain the difference between– or why strength training is so important, but also why cardio is so important is I look at strength training as a long-term investment, right? Strength training is something where you’re not going to see the benefits of it necessarily immediately. You’re not going to get stronger that workout. You’re not going to build muscle that workout. It’s more of something that you do– you’re not going to build bone density that worked out. But, over a long period of time, over a month, three months, six months, a year, you will reap the benefits of strength training.
Cardio on the other hand, I think of more of as a short-term investment. And it doesn’t mean that you don’t get benefits from cardio, like it doesn’t help you live longer. Of course it does. What I mean is the benefits of cardio you can see immediately, and if you look at the cellular level, if you look at the benefits of cardio, you can see increase in oxygen consumption, you can see increases in, in cellular turnover. You can see increases in so many positive aspects of cardio immediately in a 24-hour, 72-hour window. So, not to mention you burn more calories doing cardio short-term than you do from a strength training session short-term. Um, so they’re both very, very important. They both play a huge role in fat loss. But strength training, because it’s a much longer-term investment, there are so many more potential benefits that you’ll see from doing it and making it the base of your training. Whereas cardio, you could pick it up any time and start seeing those benefits.
Strength training– the muscular benefits, the strength benefits, the mental benefits. It takes a much longer time to see, so you want to make that the base– like the thing that you focus on most,
Mike: [00:15:11] It’s also much more difficult than cardio. Especially low intensity, steady state cardio.
So, if we were to, for example, kind of shift this pyramid around and say nutrition is the most important, and then getting three days of cardio in is the next most important it’s going to be extremely difficult for someone to then get their strength training in. Meaning if it’s prioritized lower, it’s a difficult thing to add on top. If you’re already doing three days a week of cardio and you have your nutrition pretty dialed, then to add on strength training takes more mental work. Um, do you want to talk about the specific way that you would design and– to a certain level of detail, but…
Jordan: [00:16:02] Yeah, I think…
Mike: [00:16:03] The way that you would program relative to other programming styles?
Jordan: [00:16:07] Well, so what I think is this: I think the first thing is we have to sort of define what we mean by strength training, right? Because it’s like, is it powerlifting? Is it Olympic lifting? Is it bodybuilding? Is it full body training? What is it? Is it CrossFit? Right? There’s so many ways– and they’re, these are all valid ways of strength training.
Me coming from a powerlifting background, I’ll tell you straight out, I don’t think a traditional powerlifting program that is solely focused on the big three, squat, bench press, dead lift, is the optimal way to strength train when the goal is fat loss — just for the general population, someone who’s not competing in powerlifting competition.
I don’t think that a standard Olympic lifting program is the best way to train when the goal is fat loss. I don’t think that what you might find as the– actually, I think realistically, I think probably a traditional bodybuilding program is the closest to what might be the best, but obviously there’s huge variance in that.
The way that I would generally structure it is starting off the workout with more of a “powerlifting” move, big compound movement, whether it’s a squat, whether it’s a deadlift, whether it’s a bench press, whether it’s an overhead press, whether it’s– it could be a pushup, depending on the level, it could be a goblet squat, depending on their level. It could be a kettlebell deadlift, it could be a Bulgarian split squat, could be a lunge, a big compound movement starting off. And generally, those are the first one to two exercises of the day. As you progress throughout the day, could be, I don’t know, anywhere between four to six, four to seven exercises during the day.
Um. From there you go a little bit more muscle specific, a little more isolation style exercises if you want to. Going from a lot of rests at the very beginning, three minutes rest between sets for the big compound movements down to about maybe 90 second rest, down to then 75 to maybe 60 seconds at the very end of the workout from a little bit more of a, a little bit more metabolic work, a little bit more high repetition stuff.
But generally speaking, the strength training program that I’m a huge fan of, and I want to hear what you think, Mike, begins with a big compound movement, and usually that’s the first two exercises. Then the next one to two exercises are also compound, but a little bit leading more towards isolation, and then you finish with the more complete isolation exercises.
Mike: [00:18:24] Yeah. I mean, we program almost identically in that regard. Um, I guess just to elaborate, I’m almost always increasing the rep range throughout the course of the workout. So not only does rest time come down over the course of the workout, generally speaking, but rep range increases over the course of the workout.
Um, and it, it is. It’s what seems to work best for the majority of the many clients I’ve coached, over the last eight years, is a combination of powerlifting and bodybuilding with some– and depending on what the client enjoys, and this is important, I’ll work in varying amounts of metabolic conditioning, depending on what the person I’m coaching wants. And I’m never going to completely sacrifice my principles for that, right? I’m never going to program four days a week of nothing but metabolic conditioning, but I will program a finisher within every workout, I will program one or maybe even two metabolic workouts per week, uh, if someone really enjoys that style of training, but usually it’s one to two compound movements in the, you know, as low as two or three reps and as high as eight to ten reps. Um, and then a couple more– usually one or maybe two more, uh, compound movements– and this can be, if we’re thinking about an upper body day, it might start with, uh, a pull up or a chin up and that might be assisted or it might be weighted. Um, and then we might move to a dumbbell bench press, and then we might move to a, uh, bent over barbell row, and then we might move to a, you know, a single arm, shoulder press. Um, but as that workout progresses, we’re increasing reps, we’re decreasing rest time in a way that is more powerlifting early on and bodybuilding style as the workout goes on.
And then depending on a client’s goal, we might be doing, uh, we might be doing drop sets, we might hit, like, a shoulder circuit at the end to really get a pump and really get some volume in. Or we might do, you know, a mix of, like, a minute on the rower followed by some ab work, followed by whatever to get their heart rate up.
Jordan: [00:21:12] Yeah. There’s a bunch that you said that I want to talk about. I’d say very briefly, a way that I structure it, um, just my rep schemes– usually the first exercise of the day between 4 to 6 reps, second exercise of the day, between 6 to 8 reps, third exercise the day between 8 to 10, fourth between 10 to 12, and that there’s another, it might be 15 to 20. Very simple way, and it doesn’t happen every time, but in the same way that reps increase as you go, uh, rest decrease as you go. Same thing Mike just said. Um, I do like that 4 to 6 range for maximal strength. Um, especially in a non-competitive powerlifting crowd.
Going to 3s or 2s or 1s with a non-competitive crowd is, in my opinion, not worth the risk, generally speaking. Um, sometimes I do have some clients who love lifting really heavy, even if they don’t compete and I’ll give them 3s. I think one of my favorite sayings of all time is like triples are the nectar of strength. Like, if you really want to get strong, I think heavy triples– squats, deadlifts, bench, overhead press, weighted chin ups are, like, one of the best things you can do.
But with that also comes an increased risk and you have to be very careful with who you give that to. Never give someone heavy triples if they’ve never– if their technique isn’t right yet.
Mike: [00:22:30] Yes. That’s a great point.
Jordan: [00:22:32] One thing that you said nonchalantly, and you just glossed over it, that I think would be really interesting to discuss is you said the first exercise was a chin up or a pull up, and then you went to the bench press after that.
Why start with a pull up or chin up as the first exercise?
Mike: [00:22:50] Well…
Jordan: [00:22:51] I know this is going down a whole separate route, but it’s interesting because I think, “why is that the first one?”
Mike: [00:22:57] So there could be many reasons. So, the reason that the first exercise is a pull up or a chin up and not a bicep curl, for example, is because a pull up or a chin up is working various muscles in your back as well as your biceps.
Jordan: [00:23:13] It’s a big compound movement,
Mike: [00:23:14] Big compound movement. Um, it’s also a very challenging movement, right? Like, I had the pull up A1 and then I had a row as C1. Both are pulling movements, both hit similar muscle groups, but generally speaking, a chin-up is more challenging than a row. And so, um, I’m going to program the more challenging movement earlier in the workout when the client is going to have more energy and greater chance at success on the move
Jordan: [00:23:45] I think it’s super important– and this is like, when we say every program has to be individualized, everyone loves to say that, but this is individually– like this is the essence of it. And I think another really important point about having a chin up or a pull up first, especially for my female clients: most of them want to get really good at chin-ups and also deadlifts.
I know a lot of coaches would be like, well, the first move is supposed to be a squat, or the first move is supposed to be a bench press, and why would you put a chin up first? The first move is the most important move of the day. If they don’t care about bench press as much, or if they don’t care about a dumbbell row as much, don’t put it first. Don’t tire them out before they do that move. If they are like, I want to do it, chin up, then you better put the chin up first so they can have room to improve and really be the most fresh.
Mike: [00:24:28] It’s just being dogmatic. By thinking, “Oh, I have to put the barbell bench press first because I have to put the big three first in every single workout.”
It’s putting theory first rather than what– and guess what? If we’re talking about programming for a power lifting, like, yes.
Jordan: [00:24:47] Of course.
Mike: [00:24:48] But, if your client wants to succeed in some other way and doesn’t care so much about their bench strength, then it doesn’t have to be the first move of the day.
Jordan: [00:24:59] And by the way, this goes in many different directions.
Let’s say for example, you have a client who really wants to grow their glutes, but they, for the life of them, cannot feel their glutes. They can’t do it. We just spent the first– the last however many minutes telling you to start off with low repetitions, heavy weight. But maybe if they can’t feel their glutes, you want to start off with a higher repetition, glute bridge, single-leg hip thrust, cable pull-through to get them to feel their glutes, to get them really firing, and mind-muscle connection going, and then you go into the heavy lift. And this is where there’s so much nuance to it.
Mike: [00:25:30] Yeah. Which is so great because we literally both just said in basically all of our programs, we start with a heavy in the, you know, 3 to 6, 4 to 6 rep range. But I just thought of a situation where, “oh, I had that person do a hundred body weight glute bridges before their workout.
So, like that was basically their A1 so that they would have blood pumping, feel their glutes, and then when they move into a deadlift, they’re going to be able to feel their glutes more.
Jordan: [00:25:56] And so this– it goes to show like there’s always changes, there’s always individualization, there’s always things, but you always have to pay attention to what their goal is and put that above all else for sure.
And also, be okay trial and error and experimenting different things. One thing that you were talking about when we were going back to the having finishers at the end or, and you know, you’ll never sacrifice the quality of it, but it is important to take their desires and what makes them feel good into consideration.
I remember when I was in college, I’ll never forget this, when I was– I minored in strength and conditioning. Um, and I worked with a lot of the student athletes and I worked with a lot of like– and it was at Delaware, like there was a great football team, like they’re really good student athletes. And I remember being in this strength conditioning room. And, uh, one of the things that the head coach did that I loved, which at, at the time that I learned it, I thought it was really stupid. I ended up loving it and I respect it immensely. At the end of every– at the end of every upper body workout, the football players would do essentially where they got 10 minutes to do as many curls as they possibly could.
And I remember I was there– at that point in time I was deep into West Side, I was deep into powerlifting, I was deep into Cressey, and I was just like, “this is so stupid. Why in the hell would you have these high-level football players doing 10 minutes of as many curls as you could?” Meanwhile, this is already after they’ve already had– at one practice that day, they had a huge training session, they did really heavy work, like they’re super strong and now you’re having them do an optional 10 minutes as many curls possible. I was like, this is really dumb. But looking back, they loved it. They would get super hyped up, they went crazy, their arms were dead and their height– their college dudes, they just want big arms and they’re already great football players, and looking forward to those last 10 minutes of the workout kept them in there and really intense and focused on the entire workout. Whereas if that wasn’t part of it, maybe the entire workout wouldn’t have been nearly as good. Maybe they wouldn’t have attended the workout. Who knows?
Mike: [00:28:00] I was just going to say, because you’re using college athletes as an example here, it’s incredibly impactful, but it’s almost less impactful than your average client because, and I know this from you doing my program back in 2016, I’ll never forget. This was during the transition from me to Jordan. We had a month of overlap with Gary where, you know, I was kind of showing you the ropes and here’s how you book your travel and do this, and we were hanging out and we were living together out in his house in Long Island at the time.
And you were, I don’t remember how it came up, but we were talking about you doing my programming for me, and I remember asking you like– you just brought this up, but apparently, I said, “how many leg days a week?” And Jordan said there’d be two leg days a week. And I said, “no, no, I’m good, I’m good.”
But what you did, which was very intelligent, was put, you know, 6 sets of biceps at the end of one of the leg days. And I can tell you from personal experience that it drastically increased the likelihood that I would do that workout. Like, I know for a fact I would have skipped workouts, skipped lower body workouts, had that not been there because it’s something that I enjoyed.
Jordan: [00:29:21] That was a really fun workout to write. I remember that too. ‘Cause also your goal was to just crush the bench press. That was your main goal of that. I think it was good to get 225 20 times or something. Was that it?
Mike: [00:29:31] Yeah.
Jordan: [00:29:31] And uh, and there were two reasons I put– I had never to that point in my life ever put arms on a leg day. It was the first time I’d ever done it…
Mike: [00:29:39] By the way, I do it all the time now.
Jordan: [00:29:41] I love that. It’s amazing. The first reason was because I wanted you to hit your leg day, but also because if I had kept that amount of– there was already a lot of volume on your upper body days. It was like if I added that on top of it, that would have been probably almost a two-hour workout realistically. And it probably would have impeded your bench press and increased risk of injury. So, I was like, screw it I’ll add the arms onto the leg day for that. And also, for the, the motivational aspect was just a, it was a lucky bonus that has then carried over into a lot of my programming since.
Mike: [00:30:12] Yeah.
Jordan: [00:30:13] So, I mean strength training as the second level– and there’s so much we could talk about here…
Mike: [00:30:20] As evidenced by the fact that we just went in seven different directions.
Jordan: [00:30:24] Yeah. And we could do more podcasts on this. If you want us to do more podcasts on this specific topic, let us– leave a review on iTunes, let us know what you think. Obviously a five-star would be great if you like it. But either give us more podcast topic ideas, let us know if this is a topic you’d like us to discuss more.
Um, should we leave strength training there for now, possibly leave it open for discussion, another topic and go to low intensity steady state?
Mike: [00:30:47] Yeah.
Jordan: [00:30:48] All right. Cool. You want to start off?
Mike: [00:30:50] Sure. And I’m going to start by explaining why I like low intensity steady state more than high intensity interval training because proponents of high intensity interval training will say that it is more efficient– is one of the things that they will say it’s more efficient, you lose more body fat, you burn more calories per amount of time you spend doing cardio. And that’s absolutely true. If you do 20 minutes of high intensity interval training, you will burn more calories than doing 20 minutes of low intensity steady state cardio. Like, that’s absolutely a fact.
The reason, or one of the reasons I should say, that I really like low intensity steady state is there is less training interference. And I’m sure I could point to studies if I dug, but to be honest, I’m speaking anecdotally from working with hundreds of clients, and many come to mind right now, as well as myself, that when doing sprints, when doing a circuit– like a lower body-based circuit, when doing bike sprints, when doing elliptical sprints, any kind of high intensity interval training that involves the lower body, which is the majority of high intensity interval training, it is much more difficult to maintain strength on lower body strength training. It’s much more difficult to get stronger, it’s much more difficult to build muscle if that is a goal, if recomposition is a goal.
Um, and so for that reason alone, I like to, in most situations, program low intensity, steady state over high intensity interval training if I’m going to be programming cardio.
Jordan: [00:32:44] I completely agree. I would also say we’re looking at this from a hierarchy, right? Where nutrition’s the base, strength training is the next, and then we have either low intensity or higher intensity, and Mike and I both agreed, without any discussion, we were just, like we both said, we think LISS is next, low intensity, steady state.
One of the reasons I think that this is so important is because low intensity steady state, in my opinion, should be something that you do every day. It should be something that is a part of your life in the same way that you hopefully brush your teeth, that you shower, that you have a schedule.
Making the time to get your low intensity steady state in should be a daily occurrence. And I think that’s why we need to emphasize it as the next most important thing above strength training because you should not be doing HIIT every day. If you’re doing HIIT properly, you are definitely not doing it every day.
If you’re doing HIIT every day, you’re doing it wrong, number one. You’re way more likely to injure yourself and it’s 100% going to impact your actual strength training. And so, if we look at the hierarchy of importance, strength training being the next one above nutrition, if your cardio is impacting your strength training, you’re doing it wrong.
If strength training is the most important of the actual workout, and your cardio is impacting it, you’re screwing up. Low intensity will not impact it. Unless you’re doing an outrage– you’re walking 10 miles, 15 miles a day, which is, then you have a problem– and some people do that. Some people take it to an extreme.
But the other thing you have to realize is how many people have gotten injured from low intensity versus how many people have gotten injured from high intensity?
Mike: [00:34:21] That’s a great one.
Jordan: [00:34:22] It’s not uncommon to see people tear a hamstring doing high intensity. It’s not uncommon to see people get really injured doing high intensity training. Low intensity training, you don’t see people getting injured. I mean, maybe someone rolls their ankle when they’re walking or like trips off a step. But generally speaking, low intensity is something that should be in your daily activity, is relatively easy to include and far less likely to both impact your training and also to injure yourself. Not to mention the– and this is a whole separate discussion that we could have a separate topic on. Um. Understanding the value of increasing your aerobic engine, of increasing your aerobic capacity.
A lot of people think that high intensity interval training is better because it increases your anaerobic capacity, but what a lot of people don’t realize is that increasing your aerobic capacity will delay the time by which you even need to transfer into your anaerobic capacity. So, by increasing your aerobic capacity, you will help your anaerobic by not having to tap into it too early on. This is something that people really overlook. It’s one of the– if you really look into– I think, one of the best people, two great people, you can look into: Joel Jamieson and, um, Mike Perry, Mike Perry from Skill of Strength, he’s out of Boston. I don’t know where Joel Jameson is out of, but his website, I believe it’s eightweeksout. These are two of, in my opinion, the all-time greatest strength coaches and conditioning coaches for MMA, for mixed martial arts. They are two of the most highly sought after. They have a lot of UFC fighters, a lot of high-level MMA fighters, and they talk extensively about the value of increasing your aerobic capacity in order to improve your anaerobic capacity.
And I think if you really want to understand it, you’d definitely look into more and more about them. If you want, Mike and I talk about it, we can. But the other– and the last thing I’ll say on this rant is: the people who say high intensity training is better because it burns more calories, well there, that’s already a huge flaw.
You’re not supposed to be doing training– or like, you already know fat loss is a function of nutrition first and foremost. Your cardio is not necessarily to burn more calories. Your cardio is how can you help impact your overall health? How can you impact your mindset? How can you improve your overall habits?
And the calorie burn of it, of course it matters, but if you’re relying on your cardio to burn more calories, you’re doing it wrong.
Mike: [00:36:39] Yeah. Very well said. Building off of one thing that you just said there, building your low intensity steady state into your lifestyle increases adherence of cardio compared to high intensity interval training.
For me personally and for many that I know. People dread high intensity interval training because it’s very difficult. It’s less time and it’s incredibly difficult. Whereas building a walk to Jordan’s apartment from my apartment into my daily schedule, rather than taking the subway adds in time, that is getting me that cardio, and so I’m much more likely to do it, I’m also much more likely to enjoy it.
Um, I had one other thought comparing the two that slipped my mind.
Jordan: [00:37:33] I’ll talk while you think about it– ’cause I could just talk for hours. Um, I think what’s important to keep in mind is we’re not saying that high intensity interval training is bad and we’re not saying not to do it. I literally did it today, uh, and it was brutal. It was not good. Um, but the reason we’re saying this isn’t because we say it’s bad. We’re saying it’s because we’re looking at the hierarchy of importance and you really need to order– put in order of what is the most important so you can really have the best programs for yourself and for your clients.
Mike: [00:38:04] Yeah, just someone who says, “I have to do high intensity interval training because I need the extra calorie burn…” Eat 67 fewer calories per day. Like, you really don’t need that to see the extra calorie burn.
Jordan: [00:38:21] That brings up a good point too, which– we’ll talk about epoch in a second. I’ll talk about that in one second.
I also want to say, I know a lot of people love high intensity training because it mentally and emotionally makes you feel better. Amazing. That’s incredible. That’s…
Mike: [00:38:36] That’s a reason why I’m considering doing, you know, a significant amount of it in the near future. For the mental gains.
Jordan: [00:38:43] And you saying that is why I started doing it and I’ve liked it a lot.
I’ve done it twice in the last week. And, by the way, if you haven’t done– like, I haven’t really sprinted like this in years. My peroneals are so sore it is insane. But, uh, there’s a lot of value to the mental side of it. And if it makes you feel really good to sweat, get it in really quick. That’s amazing. That’s okay. And I think it’s important to differentiate. There’s a difference between doing HIIT to burn calories and HIIT because it makes you feel better. They’re two very different things. If you’re doing HIIT because you feel like you need to because you get anxiety if you don’t, because you think it’s ruining your fat loss, because you think you need to get that extra calorie burn, it is wrong, and that’s a relationship that you need to fix. If you’re doing it because it makes you feel better, it makes you more productive, it makes you more consistent, by all means, go for it.
Mike: [00:39:32] Keep it up.
Jordan: [00:39:33] That’s the distinction you have to make. Now, as for EPOC, excessive post oxygen consumption, a lot of people will tell you that– and this is fitness marketing 101 — you go to any fitness marketer who has some type of a HIIT program, they’re going to tell you that you’re going to be burning more calories for 48 hours after the workout, and this– you will see this marketing sales copy on every sales page you can imagine. Listen, you’ll find it. If you go search it, search for EPOC, excessive post oxygen consumption, burning more calories for 48 hours after your workout, because yes, studies have shown that. But the question you have to ask is not just, oh, wow, like that must be amazing for fat loss. The question is: well, how much?
How many calories do you burn extra for those 48 hours? Not a lot. It is minuscule. In the same way people– like listen, building muscle and increasing lean mass is very important for your metabolism of course, but a lot of people don’t know how many calories a pound of muscle actually burns.
There’s a lot of myths saying, “oh, for every pound of muscle, you burn an extra 50 to a hundred calories.” That is a lie.
Mike: [00:40:37] I wish.
Jordan: [00:40:38] Oh my God. It’s not true. For every pound of muscle, you might get between 6 to 10 extra calories burned. So, if you had 10 pounds of muscle, congrats, you burned at most 60 calories.
It’s like, it’s not insignificant, but it’s not as significant as you think. So, if you’re doing an extra 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes of high intensity interval training for that extra calorie burn that you’re getting, that EPOC, that afterburner, as they call it, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.
Mike: [00:41:05] Yeah, that’s absolutely right. And you also need to compare the extra calorie burn, even if it’s not massive, but it is there — you need to compare the extra calorie burn to the extra stimulation of hunger.
Jordan: [00:41:21] Yes, good point.
Mike: [00:41:22] Both physiological and psychological stimulation of hunger. Because let’s put physiological aside, when someone does a very difficult workout, there is very often this, “I earned X food. I get to have this because I did Y.”
If you do a very intense, half-hour HIIT class, most people are going to be able to rationalize their nutrition or rationalize a single decision in their nutrition later compared to, “Oh, I walked instead of did X today, or I rode a bike instead of drove to work today.”
Therefore, with low intensity steady state, there’s just less, uh, maybe it’s less of a feeling of accomplishment because there’s less acute difficulty to the behavior that leads to less feeling like you deserve a donut or an extra drink or whatever it is.
Jordan: [00:42:25] Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and I think probably one of the main things we’re trying to get across is– and the main reason we put nutrition as the base of this pyramid is because when you really internalize nutrition as the primary driver of fat loss and not cardio, not high intensity training, not whatever, then you can stop justifying rewarding yourself with food when in reality, it’s probably going to set you back way further because you’re not burning as many calories as you think you’re burning?
Mike: [00:42:54] Correct. Contrary to Fitbit or the elliptical, or…
Jordan: [00:43:00] So, do we want to give recommendations for LISS and HIIT like how many steps daily, maybe? Like, do you have any thoughts on that?
Mike: [00:43:10] I don’t think that I do have thoughts on– I definitely don’t have daily step count thoughts. Um, because it varies. There’s, there’s too many factors that go into it.
Jordan: [00:43:24] Yeah.
Mike: [00:43:25] Um, do you?
Jordan: [00:43:28] You know, I struggle with this, I struggle with this because on one hand, I don’t think the whole, like, “you need 10,000 steps a day” is like, is definitive. And I don’t think it’s necessarily right.
On the other hand, I love giving people a number to shoot for if for no other reason, it creates a goal. It creates something solid and concrete. I do think– I’ll say for the sake of, if nothing else, just putting a number out there that is not excessive, but also, uh, it’s still a challenge, is I’d say 8,000 to 10,000 a day is a good number to shoot for it.
You’re getting– it’s probably an at least 45 minutes to an hour of dedicated low intensity cardio each day. And if you wanted to do, I dunno, 10 to 15 minutes of HIIT in there, that will reduce how much low intensity you would have to do that day. But I think that’s a good number to shoot for, uh, it’s a number that I try and shoot for on a daily basis for– really not for calorie burn, but for health. I think it’s a distinction to make
Mike: [00:44:23] Health and feeling good in the short term. And I’ll give another example that isn’t step-count specific, but, uh, something that I’ve actually really liked about 75 Hard and pulled from it — and I’m on day 35 here — is the outdoor walk that I’m doing every day.
It doesn’t have to be 45 minutes, maybe it’s 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 25 minutes. Maybe in your mind you say, “I’m going to walk outside for 10 minutes,” and then if you want to go longer, great, but going for one outdoor walk daily in place of something else, right? So, if after I get done with a big dinner, it’s 7:45 at night, and I might otherwise lay on the couch.
You know, I’ve been up since 5:00 AM and I want to just lay down and scroll and let my food digest and consume some whatever. But instead I put an audio book on and I go for a 32-minute walk around the block at whatever pace I’m comfortable with. Um, or maybe I go for a walk around the block and I call someone who I haven’t spoken to in a while.
I’m getting more and, you know, this might happen as a result of looking at my step counter being like, “Oh, crap, I’m at 6,700. Like, all right, I’m going to go out and go for a walk.” But, getting a daily outdoor walk in, uh, daily or on non-strength training days, depending on your schedule and how busy you are, but that can be really beneficial.
Jordan: [00:45:55] Yeah, and keep in mind I threw out the 8,00-10,000, if you have a client who’s sedentary, who is maybe very overweight, who struggles to get 2000 a day, do not say 8,000 to 10,000, that is a terrible choice. You might not even want to put a number on it, but one thing you could do is say like, “go outside and walk around your house twice today in total.” I love that. I was actually recently doing a podcast with a guy who works with truck drivers and truck drivers are massively sedentary, it’s a huge issue. And, uh, what they realized was 32 times around a big truck is a mile. So, they have these, like, challenges where they get them to walk around the truck X number of times in a day. Whether at pit stops, whatever it is, just walk around your truck and try and hit that 32 whatever– hit maybe 64 or whatever it is.
And I’ve adopted that for walking around your house or walking around your driveway, walking around– like whatever it is, find something and a number of times to walk around it. Two times walking around your house sounds way more doable than say, 2000 or 3000 steps, right? It’s like, it’s just the difference in number, and so it might be a really good motivational tool that you can, “hey, just walk around your house two times.” Who knows how many times it’s going to be– who knows how many steps that’s going to be, but at least it’s going to get them moving. And then going back to the benefits of cardio, people will improve their cardio literally day to day. It is insane how quickly you notice improvements, how much more efficient your cells become, how much more oxygen you can consume.
It is outrageous. And that’s where it’s–, this is again why, this is another reason we didn’t discuss yet, why it LISS is more– is ranked more important than HIIT: everybody can do LISS. Not everybody can do HIIT.
And I think one of the things that people who, the people who say HIIT is better, they’ve never worked with real like gen-pop people or sedentary people. It’s like, that’d be like saying like, you need a train– like HIIT is an advanced form of training. It is highly– if you’re doing it properly, it is high level. It is advanced. You don’t take someone who’s sedentary, never trained before, or in years, and do HIIT.
That is insanity. Like, everyone can pay attention. If you– wow, if you look at this pyramid that we have: nutrition strength training, LISS, HIIT, finishers at the top. If you look– another way of looking at this is: what everybody has the ability to focus on. Nutrition is number one. Everybody, no matter who you are, where you’re from, even if you can’t work out, you can–, you have to eat.
You have to, you have to focus on nutrition. If someone has to choose between strength training and cardio — strength training. I will for sure. Then everybody can from there can do LISS and then on top of that HIIT and then at the end finisher or blah, blah, whatever. That’s another way of looking at this. It’s really just a ranking of order of importance, but also of order of what everybody can focus on from bottom to top.
Mike: [00:48:40] Yup. That’s absolutely right. Real quick, something we haven’t hit on yet. With both forms of cardio exercise selection is something that in the short term, might not be the most important thing, but in the long-term, uh, can be quite important. And the only point I’ll make here is if it’s of no cost to you or if you can do any, uh, you know, whether it’s walking, running, elliptical, cardio, machine, bike, like if they’re all somewhat equally available to you, um, enjoyment level is in the same range — pick that which is of less wear and tear on your joints. So, if you can go for a walk or you can run, I’d suggest walking if you can, uh, you know, do some intense plyometrics, or you can do HIIT on a recumbent bike, I’d suggest the latter. Um, the purpose here isn’t to beat up your ankles, knees, and hips more than we have to, and so, uh, that’s another recommendation that I’d make.
Jordan: [00:49:54] And this’ll be, uh, we could talk about that for hours and exercise selection everything– just when you said the word plyometrics…
If you’ve never read– and I don’t just mean an article, I mean a book on plyometrics, like there are entire books written about it — and you’re using them and you’ve never read a book on it. Stop immediately using them and go read a book on it. And this is– a lot of people ask, what are my thoughts on CrossFit. Overall, net positive. I enjoy it. I’m going to say that again: overall, net positive. I enjoy CrossFit.
One of the things that I utterly hate that I’ve seen on a large scale with CrossFit is their outrageously stupid use of plyometrics. Plyometrics, when you really look into the research.
Mike: [00:50:42] I was just going to ask, how are they using plyometrics mostly?
Jordan: [00:50:47] When have someone doing box jumps in the 20 rep, 30 rep, 50 rep, hundred-rep range. You are– it is abhorrent. It is, it is awful. It’s truly so stupid.
I think arguably the greatest risk of injury comes from plyometrics out of anything else. Like, I don’t know any other exercise that has a greater risk than plyometrics. And not only just greater risk, but I mean high-level risk of injury. You tear– your Achilles tendon goes, you’re screwed. That’s like a long injury. It is an outrageously painful injury. Torn hamstring off the bone? Are you kidding me? Like these are injuries that’ll put you out for a long time and these are injuries that you consistently see with plyometrics and ill-advised, misused plyometrics.
If you’re doing a plyometric properly, there’s no reason to do more than at most– I mean, I don’t use it for more than five reps per set. I could see possible benefits with high level athletes, 6 to 8 reps depending, but that’s like very high level, very sparing, not much. I see a lot of, a lot of CrossFit coaches doing depth jumps and doing like– depth jumps are the highest level plyometric that you might do with Olympic caliber athletes very sparingly. And I see CrossFit coaches doing it with people who have a serious amount of weight to lose for very high repetitions. And it’s– I get angry.
Mike: [00:52:17] And, and Jordan, if you were to program those, you probably wouldn’t, uh, squeeze them into a finisher between a few other moves when…
Jordan: [00:52:28] Oh my God…
Mike: [00:52:28] When someone is absolutely gassed.
Jordan: [00:52:30] Snatches, box jumps, like jump rope…are you kidding me? It, it– that’s, and again, CrossFit? Net positive. Over all, I like it. I know not all CrossFit coaches do that, and it isn’t just specific to CrossFit. Other coaches do this stuff too.
Mike: [00:52:47] P90X plyometric day.
Jordan: [00:52:48] Oh. God. Yeah. That was– I am not a fan of tearing things down. I believe in 2012 I wrote an article tearing P90X apart. Just, and I actually regret a lot of it ’cause I think overall P90X is a net positive. At that point in time I was very much focused on like, this is stupid, this is stupid, this is stupid, I do think there’s positives to it. The plyometric day is so dumb and so dangerous– especially thinking about who’s using P90X?
A lot of people using P90X are people who are too embarrassed to go to the gym, people who maybe for whatever, like they don’t want to go to the gym, they don’t want to be in public, they have a lot of weight to lose. And you’re having these people doing plyometrics for an hour-hour and a half. Like, are you out of your mind? It’s insane.
Mike: [00:53:35] Absolutely insane.
Jordan: [00:53:36] But yeah, you should not be using plyometrics for cardio, for sure. Plyometrics are not a cardio movement. At all. Plyometrics are specifically to improve power and speed and rate of force development, and anything above five reps, you’re immediately seeing diminishing returns and seriously increasing your risk of injury.
Mike: [00:53:57] You heard it here, people.
Jordan: [00:53:59] That just got me– it got me angry.
Mike: [00:54:01] I love it. I love it.
Jordan: [00:54:02] Um, so, all right, and what about HIIT? What about, like, recommendations for HIIT in terms of like how many times a week do you think? At most, or like minimums and maximums.
Mike: [00:54:11] Um, zero as a minimum, and, I mean for fat loss, I guess I’ll say three as a maximum, but realistically, I’m probably not programming more than two high intensity interval training sessions in a week, especially because if I’m programming, high intensity interval training, if I’m programming, if I wanted to program three high intensity interval training sessions, what I would probably do is program one or two and program more metabolic conditioning within the strength training sessions.
Jordan: [00:54:42] Yeah. I’m with you 100%. Last section?
Mike: [00:54:47] Finishers, circuits, classes, and metabolic conditioning.
So, these are the sprinkles. These are, like Jordan mentioned, not necessary, and also kind of least available, I guess you could say, um, more fancy tactics for a small amount of additional fat loss. The first point I want to make might be slightly off topic, but I just see so many people who don’t have their nutrition where– who want to lose body fat, who want to have abs, who want leaner thighs, who want to lose 20 pounds, 30 pounds of fat, but they don’t have their nutrition in check, they don’t follow any kind of traditional strength training program or any strength training program. And the core of their workout is just going to do a random class and it’s, it’s inverting the pyramid.
And I also know that, uh, it comes from a place of naivety and from a good, pure place, like there’s– the benefits of classes for a complete beginner like that is they don’t know what to be doing strength training programming-wise, and they like having an instructor telling them exactly what to do in the class and maybe they can do it with their friends and maybe they like the music and the energy of the class. So, I understand a lot of the upside, but classes just belong in this top, tiny little section of the pyramid.
Jordan: [00:56:21] Yeah. I would say– for me, the way that I look at this top section of the pyramid is more for psychological benefits as opposed to physiological fat loss benefits.
Mike: [00:56:33] I like that.
Jordan: [00:56:34] When I think of finishers and circuits and classes, usually clients would ask me, “is it okay if I do a class, if I like this class? Can I do a finisher?” Something like that, and I’ll make it optional. I’ll say, if you’d like to, you can, this is how many a week you can do, and here are some options you can choose from. It is by no means, in no way, shape, or form necessary, and if you say you’re going to do two a week and then you miss them, don’t you dare feel bad about it because it’s completely and utterly optional. You do not have to do it.
Generally speaking, this isn’t across the board, but generally speaking, most, in my experience, women do better with having some type of a finisher or having some type of metabolic conditioning, doing these classes and, and maybe it’s because the classes they do with their friends, maybe it’s because they have the community aspect, maybe because they just like to sweat. Men, on the other hand, I’ve noticed– I’ll, I’ll say this, I work mostly with women, and I’ve noticed by and large, women tend to work way harder than men, especially in terms of women like to sweat more. They like to feel more tired, they get a much better, uh– it’s, it’s a way to release stress oftentimes, whereas men, they usually end up like– they like to lift heavier weight usually. They get– they feel a lot better from lifting heavier and they hate the cardio aspect. They hate like the sweating aspect. They just don’t really like it as much.
I mean, you look around a gym, generally speaking, you’re going to see a lot of dudes lifting heavy and then texting and you’re going to see a lot of women doing a ton of cardio. It’s just like you see that across the board. Again, not all the time, but I’ve seen that and just my experience. And so, what I’ll– I always give people the option if you’d like to do this, you can, here’s how many you can do a week. It is completely optional, but that’s it. And I like that because if it’s going to help someone, it’s sort of like the 10 minutes arms, if it’s going to help keep you consistent, give you something to look forward to. If you’re going to finish the workout and feel better and happier because of it, great.
It’s definitely not going to be the difference in whether or not you lose fat, but it might be the difference in helping you stay consistent and living happier and healthier.
Mike: [00:58:47] Very well said. That’s a good way to look at it.
Jordan: [00:58:50] So.
Mike: [00:58:52] The workout design for fat loss pyramid.
Jordan: [00:58:55] I like that.
Mike: [00:58:56] Yeah, that was, that was great.
Please, like Jordan said, please let us know. Leave a review if you want to hear about anything specific or, uh, if you have any ideas for future podcasts, you know, a five-star review would be amazing. And, uh, and we would love to go deeper on anything we discussed here. Um, this was a lot of fun talking about this.
Jordan: [00:59:18] This was great.
Just want to give a huge shout out and congratulations to everyone in the Mentorship. The, uh, the sale is officially over. So, uh, to everyone who got in at the half off sale, we’re super excited to have you in the mentorship. It is still open if you want to join it, it’s going to be open. It is now $1,000 to join where the half off sale was $500 to join.
But we’re more than happy to have you and we just want to give a huge shout out to everyone in there. Uh, the first challenge has already begun and uh, and yeah, we’re stoked.
Mike: [00:59:48] Our first livestream is tomorrow at one o’clock.
Jordan: [00:59:50] Yeah. Yeah.
Mike: [00:59:50] Got a ton of good questions, we’re both very excited.
Jordan: [00:59:52] We’ve got a lot. It’s going to be long livestream.
Mike: [00:59:54] Yeah.
Jordan: [00:59:54] It’s gonna be good.
Mike: [00:59:55] It’s going to be awesome.
Jordan: [00:59:56] So, thank you so much. Have a wonderful day and we’ll talk to you soon.
Mike: [00:59:59] Goodnight everybody.