Mike: [00:00:05] Hello and welcome to episode 10 of the How to Become a Personal Trainer podcast. We’re your hosts, Mike Vacanti.

Jordan: [00:00:09] My name is Jordan Syatt.

Mike: [00:00:10] Today we had a guest.

Jordan: [00:00:12] JoeTherapy.

Mike: [00:00:13] Not Joseph.

Jordan: [00:00:14] Made that mistake at the very beginning. His full name is Joe Yoon — he’s @joetherapy on Instagram and YouTube, not Twitter. But, uh, it was a really good episode.

Joe is an expert, especially in the mobility world, the pain reduction world, the massage therapy world. And, uh, he actually– he hit over a million followers on Instagram in exactly 21 months. And he talks about how he did that and how you can do that with your fitness business.

Mike: [00:00:41] Enjoy.

Hello, Joseph.

Joe: [00:00:52] Hello.

Jordan: [00:00:52] Is that your full name, Joseph?

Joe: [00:00:53] No, it’s Joe.

Jordan: [00:00:54] It’s Joe?

Mike: [00:00:55] Really? I apologize.

Jordan: [00:00:57] Good start to the podcast.

Mike: [00:01:00] How are you doing man?

Joe: [00:01:01] Pretty good. It’s good, uh, it’s good being here.

Jordan: [00:01:03] I love how you just said hello, even though tonight your name, too.

Joe: [00:01:06] At this point it doesn’t matter. I don’t care.

Jordan: [00:01:09] Hello, Joseph. Hi.

Joe: [00:01:10] You can call me Joe, JoeTherapy, Joseph, Joey. It’s all good.

Jordan: [00:01:15] Oh, man. How’s it going?

Joe: [00:01:18] It’s good. It’s been a crazy  couple of days. Uh, I’ve got a couple more days in New York, and then LA next week, and then I’m going to be back in New York, uh, at the end of February.

Jordan: [00:01:29] There we go. What’s in the end of February? Same type of stuff?

Joe: [00:01:32] Yeah. Just same stuff. Gonna be here, try to promote the book a little bit more until pub-date, March 3rd.

Mike: [00:01:38] That’s awesome.

Jordan: [00:01:39] Joe’s got; Joe’s got a new book coming out.

Joe: [00:01:41] I’ve made it!

Jordan: [00:01:43] “Better Stretching.”

Joe: [00:01:44] “Better Stretching,” it’s a great name.

Jordan: [00:01:46] It’s a great name. Whoever came up with that was–

Joe: [00:01:48] You want to talk about that little story?

Jordan: [00:01:51] You can talk about it.

Joe: [00:01:51] So I had– what was it? I had dinner with Jordan and a couple other guys, uh, back in– it was a couple of years ago. And, uh, I was driving Jordan back to the hotel. You were doing something with Gary and I told you about the book and he’s like– instantly was like, you should call it “Better Stretching.” And I was like, all right, I like it.

Mike: [00:02:15] It’s a pretty good title.

Joe: [00:02:15] It was a good title. I get it. And now, it’s the title of the book.

Jordan: [00:02:19] And the book, man, it looks amazing.

Joe: [00:02:21] I appreciate it.

Mike: [00:02:21] Seriously, it’s beautiful.

Jordan: [00:02:22] I didn’t know what to expect. I mean, I’ve personally never read a stretching book. It looks incredible and especially from the way that you’ve been able to break down, essentially what I see as not only mobility, but also stability for the everyday person. Not for the– for necessarily for the coaches, “like, all right, I need to learn more about upper and lower cross and so, like, I’m reading Shirley Sahrmann,” which is all amazing, but this is so that the person who has back pain or the person who has tight hip flexors, or the person who has neck issues, whatever it is, they don’t need to understand high level science or high level terminology in order to just put this into practice. I think you did a truly phenomenal job for the people who need it most.

Joe: [00:03:05] Oh, I appreciate it. And that was the whole goal is to keep everything as simple as possible. All the feedback on my Instagram is, “hey, Joe, you make everything so simple for me to understand, and I can do these without even understanding English” and, um–

Jordan: [00:03:19] That’s huge. Wow, I never even thought about that.

Joe: [00:03:22] Yeah. And this book is in English, but, uh, but I want to keep that same– kind of same feel that I have on my Instagram. Keep it simple, easy to do, um, that way you get the most out of it.

Mike: [00:03:34] That’s awesome. And I think we’re going to title this something along, “Growing Your Instagram” or “Over a Million Instagram Followers,” but from my personal perspective, just out of curiosity, I’d love to go back and hear about, like, kind of your upbringing in your life before we even get into the business stuff.

Joe: [00:03:50] Yeah, I mean, I’ve– I’ll try to do it, uh, quickly. ‘Cause it can get complicated. It’s a lot of ups and downs. Let’s start with, yeah, so I grew up in Maine, Southern Maine, which a lot of people are surprised with. Yes, there are Koreans in Maine, not that many. So–

Jordan: [00:04:09] Is there Korean, like there are Korean restaurants in Maine?

Joe: [00:04:11] Uh, maybe now. There was a couple, but, you know, uh, early nineties, growing up, you know, not much going on there.

Mike: [00:04:21] How old are you?

Joe: [00:04:22] 32.

Mike: [00:04:22] Okay.

Joe: [00:04:23] So 32, grew up in Maine, uh, had great friends, um, had a great upbringing. It was awesome. And then went to college in Connecticut.

I have a older sister, so she’s actually two years older. Uh, the same birthday, same birthday, but she’s two years older, so a lot of angry joint birthdays growing up. But I guess I’m the one to blame for that. So, she is– she’s okay. You know, she’s, uh, she’s the one who has the right to complain.

Jordan: [00:04:53] That’s so funny.

Joe: [00:04:54] Uh, so siblings. And then–

Mike: [00:04:55] Did you play sports in high school?

Joe: [00:04:57] Yeah, uh, I think everyone started with the soccer and the pee wee soccer. Uh, then I got into basketball. Basketball was probably my first favorite sport. It’s like the Jordan, the Kobe, you know, like Jerry Stackhouse, Allen Iverson. I mean, I love– I mean, that was for me, the best time, uh, for basketball. Uh, and then. Oh, so–

Jordan: [00:05:17] Did you have the Tracy McGrady shoes?

Joe: [00:05:19] No. No. Was too poor for that.

Jordan: [00:05:22] I just remember everyone growing up– I didn’t play basketball, but everyone had like the McGrady’s, like all those shoes.

Joe: [00:05:27] I had the Starter jacket. I had the Bulls Starter jacket. That was the thing. Yeah, the classic puffy coat. Uh, so did that. And then I was really good at basketball when I was younger, but then I went through a growth spurt.

Uh, so a lot of people are surprised at how tall I am. I’m like 6’3″. Um, so my shot changed a ton when I went through puberty and then I just sucked because it changed the way I shot the ball. And then I kind of lost passion from basketball.

Jordan: [00:05:56] What age did you have your growth spurt?

Joe: [00:05:59] It was like middle school. So, I remember vividly, like, being amazing at sports, or at least, basketball. And then my shot was so awkward, I just couldn’t change it back. And then I kind of lost passion in basketball ’cause I, I was the best– I was the best player on the other team too.

Mike: [00:06:17] And to go from that to, like, not being good or not feeling like you’re good, that’s a huge shift. Especially as a kid.

Joe: [00:06:24] You know, back then I probably shouldn’t have given up, but I mean, it was like I just went to the next sport and exactly, it was like, I don’t know, uh, did some golf, did lacrosse. Those are my two big sports in high school  yeah, did really well on those and then when I went off to college. Uh, did horrible in college, people think–

Jordan: [00:06:42] Where’d you go to college?

Joe: [00:06:43] Uh, Quinnipiac University in Connecticut.

And again, people think I’m, you know, very smart and very educated. I did a horrible in school. It was bad. I got kicked out of my major. It was that bad–

Jordan: [00:06:56] Really? They booted you out?

Joe: [00:06:57] In my major, yeah. I got– I graduated with a bachelor’s, but it wasn’t in what I intended to.

Jordan: [00:07:04] What did you intend to graduate with?

Joe: [00:07:06] It was called diagnostic imaging. It was doing like x-rays, MRIs, CT scans. And I did great in the lab portion and the clinical portions, but when it came to just sitting down and studying, it just, wasn’t what I was good at. Uh, so I kind of wish I was more self-aware back then because it’s like, “Oh, why am I doing so great in clinicals, but this test, like I’m failing?”

Uh, so I realize that now 10 years, 12 years later, uh, so I graduated, figured I’d try to get a job and couldn’t get a job. Uh, but that’s right when I started to work out seriously — going on like bodybuilding.com forums and watching every YouTube video, all the original YouTube of fitness guys and figured.

Jordan: [00:07:51] What’s– Scooby? Was this name? Do you remember him?

Mike: [00:07:54] Absolutely. Point and shoot, five-minute video, gets millions of views? 

Jordan: [00:08:02] He’s jacked, too.

Mike: [00:08:03] Yeah, he was jacked.

Joe: [00:08:05] Yeah, he was huge. Some of those guys, like a Steve Cook, uh, Scott Herman, uh, those were the guys I was watching. Um, there was a trainer  from Gold’s Gym.

Mike: [00:08:13] Uh. Mike O’Hearn?

Joe: [00:08:15] No, no, no, no. There’s another trainer there that trains all the top guys, too.

Mike: [00:08:18] Oh, I know who you’re talking about.

Joe: [00:08:20] But like, I would learn all these tips from him and I’m like, you know what, I could probably coach this. So got my NASM certification, moved to Boston, and worked at a BSC. We actually lived, uh, Jordan and I, we lived in the same town–

Jordan: [00:08:34] Davis Square.

Joe: [00:08:35] Davis Square, but one year apart. So, I moved to Florida. And that’s when you moved to Davis Square.

Jordan: [00:08:41] And where you at the BSE in Davis?

Joe: [00:08:43] No, I was in the BSC in Lexington.

Jordan: [00:08:45] Got it.

Joe: [00:08:47] And spent a couple of years there and while I was there, I did my massage therapy license in Medford–

Jordan: [00:08:52] Meh-fah.

Joe: [00:08:52] Med-fah. Med-fud. And uh, did that part time.

Mike: [00:08:56] What made you want to do that?

Joe: [00:08:58] So I, I met a guy who did both. He was a trainer, therapist, massage therapist, and he was in the golf industry. Uh, and he had a client– I was shadowing him one day and he had a client come in and he’s like, “Oh, you know, the coach is trying to get me in this certain position. I just can’t do it.”

So, he would do some soft tissue work, manipulations, and almost instantly he could get into these positions that his coach wanted him to be in. And I’m like, “wow, this is so cool. Like, this can help my training clients so much. Like imagine if they can’t get into a certain position and you just do a couple things to them, now they could overhead press better, they could probably squat better.” Uh, so that’s what got me interested in it. And massage was the quickest way to get a license to physically be able to touch people or legally be able to touch people. So, um, that’s what I did. And I did that part time.

I did that from 10:00 AM to 12:00 PM. So, I’d wake up at 5:00 AM every single day to train clients, go to school, and then go back to the gym at nighttime to train whatever clients I had at that time.

Mike: [00:10:01] Wow.

Jordan: [00:10:02] How old were you then?

Joe: [00:10:03] 25? Uh, 24-25.

Jordan: [00:10:06] Yeah, prime grind time.

Joe: [00:10:09] I remember those 5 AM’s every day for two years.

Mike: [00:10:11] Were you, single at the time.

Joe: [00:10:12] Um. On and off.

Mike: [00:10:16] I’m just curious because that balance– being able to work 10, 12, 14, 16-hour days and have a girlfriend is like, not an easy thing.

Joe: [00:10:26] I don’t know why, but I think it was a lot easier back then because, um– actually, I don’t know why. I feel like it’s harder now, especially being my own boss.

I think because I wasn’t my own boss, technically back then, it’s like I still went and worked certain hours, but now it’s the grind is always on the mind.

Mike: [00:10:47] And there’s no external, uh, accountability– or at least from, uh, like there is from your audience, but there’s not from an authority figure.

Joe: [00:10:55] Exactly. So, it’s a lot tougher to, I feel like structuring your days and, um, you know, it’s tough to just take your mind off of, “Hey, what am I going to do to grow my business?” And, you know, “where’s my income going to come from?” Because now it’s not as guaranteed as before.

Jordan: [00:11:09] Which is super scary.

Joe: [00:11:11] Yeah, I mean, that’s the toughest part. So, I think it’s a lot tougher to balance relationships, which, you know, I’ve mentally struggled with because it’s like — we go into this, we started from nothing, and then it just becomes our passions. Like we don’t want it to fail, so all of the tension might be on the business side instead of the relationship side.

Jordan: [00:11:30] Makes total sense.

Joe: [00:11:31] Yeah. Crazy.

Jordan: [00:11:33] So you’re 24, 25, grinding,

Joe: [00:11:35] Grinding. And then I got into the golf industry and moved to Florida, which I’m still at. Uh, and doing that same type of work.

And this is where I got really interested in more the mobility side of things, um–

Jordan: [00:11:47] For golf?

Joe: [00:11:48] Uh, for golf, but just in general. Like I started doing– learning a little bit more about the movement assessments and the mobility versus stability type of work where, you know, what, maybe it’s not a mobility issue, maybe it’s a stability issue and that like really blew my mind. It was crazy when I first learned that.

Jordan: [00:12:06] I remember that too.

Joe: [00:12:07] Yeah. And uh, I’m a big Mike Boyle guy as well, so it was like the joint first, uh, the joint-by-joint theory. Uh, so adding all those things in was just like a simplistic approach on fitness too– uh, you know, horizontal push, vertical pull, whatever.

Um, you know, that’s when I started to kind of carve out my niche, uh, back then and, uh–

Jordan: [00:12:30] Man, the joint-by-joint approach. That just seems like a lifetime ago when he was talking about that.

Joe: [00:12:36] I remember buying his DVDs. The strength coach DVDs. It was like eight DVDs would come to my place. I’m like, what the hell are these?

Jordan: [00:12:44] I remember I made– he would have interns at his gym and I remember in order to be an intern, you had to submit a video interview, essentially. Like a video of yourself asking to be an intern. I think on a different YouTube channel, not the one that I have now, on a different YouTube channel I submitted one from Israel when I was like 18 years old, being like, “Mr. Boyle.” I had an earring in and I had a Mohawk and I–

Mike: [00:13:11] That’s amazing.

Joe: [00:13:12] I need to see a picture of this.

Jordan: [00:13:13] The video is online somewhere and man, it just seems like– so much has changed in the industry since then. It’s really remarkable.

Joe: [00:13:21] It is wild. Uh, yeah, and it’s going to change even more, which is the crazier thing.

Jordan: [00:13:28] So, all right, so then you go to Florida, joint-by-joint, you learn all these approaches for golf.

Joe: [00:13:32] Yeah. And then, uh– there’s a lot of back and forth-ing, I’m a little bit all over the place. I think it was the struggle of trying to figure out what I really wanted to do, um, and trying to figure that out. So, I just went to where I thought I had the best opportunity and I would kind of follow these people I admired and try to reach– it’s like, “if these people are successful, I got to do what these guys did.” So, I got the opportunity to go to Jersey and I worked at a golf club in Springfield, New Jersey.

Jordan: [00:13:59] Oh, you moved from Florida to Jersey?

Joe: [00:14:00] Yeah. So, I moved there for one year, and you guys should know this: what’s in Springfield, New Jersey?

Oh, come on.

Mike: [00:14:08] Is that where Gary’s from?

Joe: [00:14:09] Yeah, Wine Library!

Mike: [00:14:10] Oh, that’s where Wine Library is. Got it. Got it.

Joe: [00:14:13] Geez.

Jordan: [00:14:13] Good thing there’s zero chance he’ll be listening.

Joe: [00:14:18] So, I did that for a year. Um, but there was–

Mike: [00:14:22] What golf course?

Joe: [00:14:23] It’s called Baltusrol Golf Club. Very– it’s one of the top golf clubs in America, has hosted the most, uh, majors.

Mike: [00:14:31] What’s, what’s the best score you posted there?

Joe: [00:14:35] Um. I don’t know. You can’t really–, I personally couldn’t play like all 18 at once because it’s–

Mike: [00:14:41] Because you can only play at night. If you can sneak on at 7:00 PM and get like maybe 13 holes.

Joe: [00:14:46] Exactly. Exactly. ‘Cause it’s such an elite course and very private. Just being a part of it, if you’re a golf nut and they’re like, “Oh, you work there?” These people like– it’s like, “Holy shit, Joe.”

Mike: [00:14:58] You get some clout in the Gulf world.

Joe: [00:14:59] Yeah, it’s crazy.

Jordan: [00:15:01] The employers are like, “don’t be on the course.”

Joe: [00:15:03] Exactly. There’s huge divots in the ground,

Jordan: [00:15:07] “You are scum!”

Joe: [00:15:10] So yeah, I did that for one year, but I was working for a top a PGA tour trainer at the time. Uh, he’s still a top a trainer, but I felt capped at my salary– and I got salary too, which was amazing as a trainer. I feel like that’s– that could be the goal for some people ’cause you’ve got the stability, you’ve got the benefits, like health insurance, you know, it was pretty good doing work you enjoy, but it just, I felt like I can make more and I couldn’t be as creative. You know, you’re always under someone’s watch, so you always have to be careful of what you’re saying.

You almost can’t be yourself sometimes because, you know, you have to make sure that you’re doing right to your boss.

Jordan: [00:15:49] Yeah.

Mike: [00:15:50] Yup. That’s a great point.

Joe: [00:15:51] So I was working for the golf course and this guy, so I had to make sure I was super proper, super-super proper.

Jordan: [00:16:00] I wish that I could see proper Joe.

Joe: [00:16:03] You guys see a different side. You know, I keep a pretty tame on online. You know, I try to say not as many swear words as Jordan.

Jordan: [00:16:12] I’ve been working on it!

Joe: [00:16:14] But I haven’t seen it!

Jordan: [00:16:17] “Oh, have you? I haven’t noticed.”

Joe: [00:16:22] And so I was doing that and I was like, “ah, you know what? I just, I feel like I could do more,” and I was doing Instagram, but more like personal page and like working out the, the typical stuff back then. I mean as 2015, maybe. Um, and this is– the cool part is I stumbled upon Gary’s video or one of his videos, and it might’ve been your video, Mike, you are on there with Mike Rashid and Jill.

Jordan: [00:16:47] Oh, I remember that one.

Mike: [00:16:50] Yes. It was an AskGaryVee fitness entrepreneur episode.

Joe: [00:16:55] So, I don’t know what I was typing in. It must’ve been–

Jordan: [00:16:57] You had your super-jelled hair at that point, I remember. Were you wearing the “ideas are shit shirt?”

Mike: [00:17:02] I was wearing that shirt and I spilled coffee on my way to the–

Joe: [00:17:08] So that– I don’t know what I was searching for, but I think it was, you know, like “fitness,” “entrepreneurship,” or I was typing in “Gary V. Fitness.” I think that’s what I put up, ’cause I think I found some of his videos and I’m like, “oh, does he have  any fitness-oriented content to help me out?” Your video popped up and it probably made me quit. That’s probably the reason why it made me quit my job.

Mike: [00:17:31] That’s amazing.

Joe: [00:17:31] ‘Cause I always say Gary V was the reason why I became an entrepreneur, but it was your video that pushed it over the top. I’m like, “wow, I want to be like this Mike guy.” 

Jordan: [00:17:41] That’s amazing.

Joe: [00:17:42] Yeah, “he’s got like a membership site.” Then I like, looked up your website, you got the Ben and Jerry’s picture up there and I’m like–

Jordan: [00:17:48] and the dog and the small dog too.

Mike: [00:17:50] Down at the bottom?

Joe: [00:17:51] So I’m like okay, this is really cool. Like, I think I’m going to quit. So, I quit my job.

Jordan: [00:17:57] That’s so bad ass.

Joe: [00:17:58] Yeah, and moved back to Florida. And on the way down I drove down listening to “Crush It” by Gary V.

Mike: [00:18:04] And in your mind at that point, like, did you have anything waiting for you in Florida?

Joe: [00:18:10] No. Uh–

Mike: [00:18:12] And did you have savings? Like, were you worried about how you’re going to make money?

Joe: [00:18:17] I was in debt over $20,000. Uh, I thought I was gonna kind of go back into the groove of this whole golf fitness therapy, because I was there before. So, I’m like, “you know what, I’ll probably just pick up right where I left off, make plenty of money, find clients.”

Uh, no savings. I had like enough for, uh, renting an apartment, security deposit, I probably didn’t have more than a month extra, uh, in my bank account. On top of that, I was in debt with no real plan. Uh, so. Yeah, I ended up moving down– the golf stuff failed bad.

Jordan: [00:18:55] Really?

Joe: [00:18:56] Yeah. And a lot of people don’t– you’ll probably hear this on some future podcasts, but I was selling, uh, I sold my golf clubs. I sold my golf clothes. I was selling like textbooks that I own to Amazon for $20 credit to Amazon, uh, just to skim by. Just to pay my rent.

Jordan: [00:19:14] For how long?

Joe: [00:19:15] Uh, for a few months. I mean, it was just like pretty high pressure. Like first, you know, I would always have just enough money to skate by. Uh, and you know, I had one client back then who paid a package deal, so I got a little bit of money upfront, but that was a toxic relationship too, just from a client, uh, trainer perspective, uh, which was adding to the stress.

So back then, uh, it was bad. And this was all pre-Instagram.  Pre-Instagram or what you see now.

Jordan: [00:19:46] How long ago was this?

Joe: [00:19:47] It was at the end of 2016.

Jordan: [00:19:51] Got it. Okay.

Joe: [00:19:51] Uh, so I moved to Florida probably August or September. Uh, thought I was going to pick up right where I left off. It didn’t. So probably until February of 2017, uh, it was bad for those few months.

Mike: [00:20:07] Just scraping by, month-to-month on rent, like, not sure what you were going to do. What was your primary goal? Do you remember at that time were you trying to get more clients?

Joe: [00:20:17] I was trying to get more clients. I was working with other golf instructors to try to get them to push some clients to me, but I forgot that a lot of these kids, they go to golf academies or they stuck with those people– because I used to be one of those, uh, professionals where all these kids would go to, uh, for work. But because I left for that year, it’s almost, I got forgotten and they just went into other places for their work to get done.

Uh, so I was trying to get more clients. It was tough. I got a part time job, $40 a day. $40 a day, five days a week, uh, doing “Return to Sport.” So, it was a lot of these kids coming out of PT, but they’re not ready to go into their sport. So, I was kind of that bridge from rehab to performance, really concentrating on a lot of these soccer players who came off of ACL tears, uh, doing a lot of unilateral work, trying to get their leg strength–

Mike: [00:21:12] Is this a nonprofit organization?

Joe: [00:21:13] No, no, this was one of the– it’s a very top gym in Orlando.

Mike: [00:21:18] And you were making $5 an hour?

Joe: [00:21:21] Oh, it’s, it was, um, it was $40– it was $20 per hour session, so I would run this little group class.

Mike: [00:21:27] I see, I see.

Jordan: [00:21:28] Got it.

Joe: [00:21:28] So it’d be two sessions a day, 20 bucks each. Uh, and this is where we were doing some plyo stuff, just basically making sure that they’re cutting correctly, loading into each leg properly and could change direction without, uh, excess stress on their legs or their knees.

So, I did that for a few months and that kind of held me over.  I mean it was it a couple hundred dollars a week. Um, that was good enough with a little bit of the golf stuff I was doing on the side. Uh, but it wasn’t sustainable. Uh, so I ended up just shifting– once my client’s package finished, uh, I fired him, or I didn’t see him again.

Mike: [00:22:08] Which did you do? Did you ghost him or did you fire him? Was there a conversation?

Joe: [00:22:14] He knew it was coming.

Mike: [00:22:15] I see, ok.

Joe: [00:22:16] It was pretty bad going into the last couple of sessions. Um, so it was kind of like we knew it wasn’t going to happen.

Mike: [00:22:23] Yeah. Got it.

Joe: [00:22:24] And that was the time I kind of, uh, kind of put all these like negative people aside and then I changed my mindset and business and I pivoted and, and that’s when you see the Instagram stuff coming up and I was like, you know what? Orlando is a big fitness community — a lot of bodybuilders, a lot of fitness competitors. They don’t have a lot of people to do their body work. Um, like the Graston-type of stuff and, you know, their massages. And I’m like, “you know what? This is probably a better market in Orlando. And there’s not too many people who do the stuff I do. So, let me pivot. And try to promote that now.” And then that’s where the Instagram started to pop up.

Mike: [00:23:06] And that’s when you started posting, uh, like posting videos like you post now? Or what inspired you to start making content that was actually helpful for people on Instagram and how did you go about doing it?

Joe: [00:23:22] So it started off by– uh, it was very different approach. So, if you scroll all the way down, which a lot of people don’t, it looks way– I don’t even scroll that far. Uh, it looks totally different. It’s very typical business, oh, taking pictures with your clients, “hey, can you share this picture on your Instagram?” Me showing some of the techniques I would do in my massage therapy sessions. Hopefully, you know, people would see, “Oh, he works with this person. Uh, he must be good,” or “he works on my buddy, I’ll give Joe a shot.” And I started to grow a little bit.

Jordan: [00:23:56] Grow in person or online?

Joe: [00:23:58] Both. Yeah. So, it grew a little bit on Instagram, it also grew my business in-person. So, I was getting sessions and after a couple of months, it was pretty good. I was very surprised. A lot of it was from word of mouth too, uh, so I can’t totally–

Jordan: [00:24:13] But there’s a lot to be said for a word of mouth referral, then saying, “go look at, go look at an Instagram,” and then they’ll see this stuff, they’ll see you working on their friends.

So, word of mouth, but word of mouth plus the visual aspect of: this is exactly what I’m doing,

Joe: [00:24:27] Which is amazing because– I call Instagram, it’s like the modern-day resume, you know? They’re like, “Oh, check out Jordan, check out Mike.” It’s like, “who are these people?” And you go on their Instagram, it’s like, “okay, they work with this guy. Oh, they work with this guy.”

Jordan: [00:24:43] “I feel like I know them more. I feel like I know what their values are, like where their morals are.” Yeah, absolutely.

Joe: [00:24:46] Exactly. So, it’s almost like building a rapport before you even meet them, so they’re more comfortable with going into see you.

Jordan: [00:24:53] Actually that’s a really good point. I sorta want to talk about that for a second.

If you look at the resume, you have like the, like, what you studied, or what your job is. So, you know, like what they’re an expert in. You know what their expertise lies in. But they also have extracurricular activities like, so you can see, okay, maybe they were at the church, or maybe they were doing volunteering.

So, you can see where like, where their values and morals and ethics are, what they care about. And so, Instagram is sort of the same thing where it’s like, okay, so if you’re posting business-style content, then they can see where your expertise are, what you’re trying to help people with. But then maybe in your stories or in your captions or whatever it is they can see that you’re talking about or going to volunteer. You’re hanging out with your family a lot, you’re a family person. It sort of shows that rather than being in a bullet point, but in real life circumstances.

Joe: [00:25:37] So I’ve actually talked about this. Uh, my first ever panel talk, uh, was about Instagram and it was in front of a lot of these, uh, you know, the top of the top health fitness professionals.

And I brought up the point of using your Instagram to build rapport. Because for me personally, and not everyone has to do it this way, I did a lot of my educational stuff on my main page, but my Instagram story was a place where people could get an inside look of what I was doing on a day to day basis.

So, people can be like, “Oh, Joe is getting coffee again.” “Joe’s eating something crappy again.” “Oh, Joe, this is how he speaks and this is how he acts.” So, when I would get a client who was from Instagram, come in for a session, it’s almost like they already knew me. And in a business where, uh, for me personally, you know, I have to get them, you know, for guys like, “take your shirt off,” girls come in in, you know, gym clothes.

It could be uncomfortable, but they already automatically felt comfortable. It’s almost like they knew me already, so I didn’t have to break down any barriers. And it makes the sessions go by amazingly way more smooth.

Mike: [00:26:43] Yeah. And another good point is: you weren’t making the same type of content then that you are now and I would imagine you would say that the content you’re making now is better content.

Joe: [00:26:56] I think so because it helps reach more people. So, one of the biggest issues– so I decided to transition a little bit because I got a lot of comments saying, “Joe, your stuff is great, but I’m not in Orlando. If I was in Orlando, I would come see you.”

And I’m like, “damn, I need, I need you to come in.” Uh, but then I realized there’s so many more–

Jordan: [00:27:17] “Do you have any business trips?”

Joe: [00:27:18] Like, “going to Disney world anytime soon?”

And it was tough. So, I’m like, “you know what? I think I can help more people than just the people in Orlando.” And that’s when I started to put up the content you see now, where these self-massage techniques where they can do it themselves.

And then that’s when everything started to blow up. I was growing, uh, you know, a couple people here and there, maybe a hundred people a week, and then I started to post this type of work and I remember doing one post– and this was at the time when I was trying to figure out what the best

Jordan: [00:27:58] Was this the thoracic post?

Joe: [00:27:59] No. Oh, no, no, no. That one’s– that’s an all-time great for me. Uh, but you know, I was trying to figure out, should I do these infographics? Should I do videos? How should I lay out my Instagram page? So, it was a mishmash of everything.

The first video that ever blew up. And it’s, it’s ironic ’cause it’s a lacrosse ball that I show and not a tennis ball, and it was a hamstring release.

Jordan: [00:28:23] Interesting. I wouldn’t have expected that to do that well.

Joe: [00:28:26] So it was what you see now, the split screen, it’s the title, the picture of the body part, then the video on the side. No talking, just me demoing it. And I remember putting that up, going to bed, waking up to 400 new followers, and I said, “I’m going to stick with this format until it doesn’t work.” It’s worked ever since.

Jordan: [00:28:46] That’s awesome. That’s amazing.

Joe: [00:28:49] Yeah. It’s pretty cool. Very cool.

Jordan: [00:28:51] Were you doing hashtags? Like, were you just posting the video?

Joe: [00:28:55] So, I was doing the hashtags, uh, but I realized it really comes down to content. It doesn’t matter what hashtag you use– it’s important, I still do it anyways. But if your content is garbage then you’re not going to get the followers.

Jordan: [00:29:10] That’s exactly right.

Joe: [00:29:12] I even, you know, I dabbled– I think all of us have dabbled shout outs on a big meme page or something. Or “can you, you know, can you refer me and or a repost something on your page?” Um, and I did that early on and I got some followers.

I did– I think some page had like 100,000 followers. I was like, “Hey, how much for a little shout-out?” And this was early on, I think I still actually had my massage business back then, or it was mostly massage stuff. Um, and like I got some followers and then my buddy did it in Orlando and he got like no followers.

So, it was really interesting to learn, like, it doesn’t matter, um, you know, how much money you pay or what page you’re on. You can totally pay some big page to put your post up, but if your content is garbage when they go to it, you’re not going to get a follow.

Jordan: [00:30:00] That’s exactly right. That’s what everyone– I sort of talk about this principle of powerful content versus tactical content to the effect of, listen, they’re both important. And making it powerful, making it helpful, making it high quality and tactical in terms of, yeah, like if you’re not using hashtags, you’re being stupid, but you can use the best hashtags in the world, you can use the best advertisements in the world, but if your content sucks, then you’re wasting your time. If your content isn’t actually valuable or helping people, if it isn’t done in a very, uh, enjoyable and very easy to understand way, then it doesn’t matter how tactical you are.

Like, if you’re posting yourself in your pickup truck or your dog or whatever it is, like no one cares. And I think that’s what you’ve done– you’re a genius with. I think especially in the, in the fitness world specifically, even the subset of strength and conditioning, mobility, flexibility, stability, like the pain reduction, pain elimination world, but not just that, because I do say strength and conditioning as well, because improving mobility for the squat or the deadlift or whatever it is– performance world, we’ll call it. Um, I think you’ve changed the game. I think that you are– I think one of the genius, most genius aspects of your content is that you don’t even need words. Literally, you don’t even need to say a thing. It doesn’t matter if they have sound on or sound off. You don’t need subtitles. They watch you for about 7 to 12 seconds and they know what they can do to get better immediately. It’s incredible. It really is, and I think you change the game and you change the industry with that stuff.

Joe: [00:31:43] It was, it was interesting. I talked to a buddy of mine when I went to London and we followed each other  mutually on Instagram. And I went to have some gin with him and he was like, “Joe, you’re out there like crushing it.”

And I’m like, “yeah, I don’t know how I’m doing it.” He’s like, “I know why. It’s people watch your videos and it’s so simple that a six-year-old could watch your video and understand what’s going on.” And I never thought of it that way. Then he like said, it’s some sort of, you know, principle, you know, there’s a theory on it.

Um, I was like, Oh yeah, cool, cool. And, but it means–

Jordan: [00:32:17] Was that the one that said that?

Joe: [00:32:19] No, no, it wasn’t you.

Jordan: [00:32:20] “No! It’s definitely NOT you.”

Joe: [00:32:22] Can’t take all the credit for everything. And it was, uh, it made sense. I was like, “Oh, I didn’t really think of it that way.” Where literally, probably a six-seven-year-old could look at the video and be like, “Oh, it’s for this body part and this is how you do it.”

And then that’s it. That’s simple.

Mike: [00:32:41] How did you begin to make the shift? So, you were making content before that wasn’t as helpful for people everywhere in the world. You started making content that was more helpful for anyone consuming it, which is amazing because then you can literally help someone in any country in the world. How did you think about shifting your business from exclusively in-person to both in person and online?

Joe: [00:33:10] So, that was, that was tough because I was doing– so I was doing massage therapy sessions where I was getting a full book. My days would be pretty booked up and it was–

Mike: [00:33:23] Is that like six sessions a day? Four to six?

Joe: [00:33:27] The longest day I ever had was, I think it was like 8:00 AM to 9:00 PM and these were consecutive sessions.

Mike: [00:33:37] Straight? Just like 13 straight sessions?

Joe: [00:33:39] Pretty much. Some were, some were hour and a half. And I remember I was at an event with one of my athletes and our flight got canceled, so we had to take a red eye back to Orlando from California. So, I got in at 4:00 AM, took like a two-hour nap, got ready, and went straight to where I was working at the time, where I was renting a room, and busted out this long-ass day and I was delusional and drinking as many Monsters as I could.

Jordan: [00:34:08] Which one? Which Monster?

Joe: [00:34:09] I was drinking purple that day. The purple one.

It’s crazy how you remember these things. It was probably ’cause I was Instagram-storying it or something like, “aw, crazy day. I needed the caffeine.” And um, but usually it would be four days, but four to five would be a pretty, pretty big day. Just because I’m working– I’m manually doing stuff, which is a little bit more effort.

I think even training, doing five sessions a day is technically full time. And I wanted to help more people and I was struggling to do that because I had all this work that I had to do from the uh, massage therapy sessions. I was like, “shit, how do I make Instagram money?” And so, I was still doing–

Jordan: [00:34:55] It’s so funny you say that. It’s like people really think that just having more followers means you’re just, “Oh, I want that Instagram money.”

Mike: [00:35:01] Does Instagram pay you? or how does that–

Joe: [00:35:03] That’s what I thought and it wasn’t true. And, uh, I started– and like I was still putting the posts up– which also I think helped me too because I wasn’t worried about the money. I think a lot of the trainers and therapists nowadays, they go into Instagram worried about getting money, making money, how do I get these sponsorships? Where I was making my income from a different source so I could concentrate on just putting good content out without the stress of, like, “ah, I need to make money to pay for rent.”

Jordan: [00:35:33] This is something– mike and I literally, actually, I didn’t even forward this to you.

Um, I got an, we’ve got an email, but it came to me, basically someone being like, “why would I give away all my best content for free? That doesn’t make any sense.” And, uh, what you just said is exactly why, in terms of when you give content away with the intent– when the sole intent is to make money, you end up not giving your best content. But when you give content away with the intent to make it as good as possible and as helpful as possible, you also end up not just helping people, but creating a sustainable income from that.

A lot of people misconstrue what we say as, when we say, “the intention shouldn’t be to make money.” People think we’re saying that making money is bad, or you shouldn’t make money for your expertise, your time. That’s not what we’re saying, we’re saying from a mental perspective, it will help you make better content that will then lead to more sustainable income and helping more people if that isn’t your primary goal.

Joe: [00:36:36] Exactly. And there’s another thing I actually talked about on that same panel was there’s so much damn information out now. Nothing’s a secret. So, I rather you get the information from me than finding it from someone else.

Jordan: [00:36:51] Super powerful.

Joe: [00:36:52] And I told everyone this there, I’m like, you guys have probably spent so much money on continuing education, you invested in yourself and your career, “why would I give all this information that I learned, that I paid for out for free?” And that was the hardest thing for me was, “do I want to put all these exercises out that I learned or how I program them?” Uh, it took me a long time because I spent a lot of money. We’ve all spent a shit ton of money on continuing education, but now you just go to Google, now you just go to YouTube, everyone’s putting out content on Instagram. You know what? I want you to find it from me so you trust me, and I’d rather you just find it from me and I become where you get your information from. So that was a huge transition from, man, I want money. Like I don’t want these people– do these people need to pay for this? To: you know what? I’ll just give it away for free, you’ll trust me, and now you will see me, like, anytime you need something, stretching going to see Joe’s page.

Mike: [00:37:54] Yeah. And then you’re not resentful as a result. Because people who go into making content specifically to make money become resentful very quickly, I have found, when they’re not, within one month or two month or three months of making that money, they don’t want to be making the content because they feel like the people consuming it don’t deserve it. They feel like they’re entitled to be getting paid when you’re not, and we called what you had an advantage? Or you might’ve said you had an advantage that you had that side income and so Instagram, you didn’t have to go into it with a mentality of trying to make more money, but just helping as many people as possible. You also created that advantage for yourself. Like, you were working full time, manual labor on the side to give yourself that advantage. Which is important for people listening to internalize.

Like, you created that opportunity for yourself.

Yeah, and I think

Joe: [00:38:45] a lot of people forget that, you know, when they see someone with a big following, it’s like, “Oh, they’re so lucky. They just did social media and now they’re huge.” But anyone who’s gotten to that point knows we’ve probably been in really bad situations or just really long days where we did this after we worked all day, before we worked all day, in between our sessions. It wasn’t, “oh, they have all data build content.” I almost kinda got lucky because I was starting my business, um, and you know, I had some extra downtime because I was poor, didn’t have any money trying to build clientele, so I could do both. I could do the Instagram while I was doing, you know, one to two sessions and then spent all my other time trying to promote.

Jordan: [00:39:33] It’s so funny. I’ve always said when people are like, “Oh, I’m just so lucky. Like they just, they have social media.” I’m like, “well, listen, if you think it’s that easy, why don’t you do it?”

Joe: [00:39:43] Well, see, it’s like–

Jordan: [00:39:45] It’s one of –they’re like, “ah, they just did social media,” so I say, “why don’t you just do social media? Then if it’s that easy?” It’s like it’s, it’s a tremendous blessing and it’s incredible that we have this opportunity, but I very much believe, like, it is so unbelievably hard to be– there’s so many aspects of it.

The consistency aspect is, I think, the first and foremost part that most people struggle with, right? Where it’s like they’re just not doing it as consistently as they think they’re doing it in the same way that a lot of clients, they’re not in a calorie deficit as consistently as they think they are which is why they’re not losing weight, but all of a sudden they get in a calorie deficit consistently and like, “Oh my God, it’s working.”

After you get the consistency part down, which is what 99% of the people struggle with, then you start going through the phases of content creation, which is sort of what you were talking about, how you scroll down and down and down. It was different, but the more you did it, the more you learned– the more you learned how to improve it. The more you learned about different types of content. And only through the times and trials of error– the trial and error and the practice did you eventually stumble upon the type of post that has continued to work very well for you. But that only happened because of all the times you posted that it didn’t work as well for you, that you eventually, “you know what, I’ll try this,” and that only comes through trial and error.

It’s sorta like when people are struggling with fat loss, they’re like, “Oh, I’m always hungry. I’m always hungry. I’m always hungry.” Then, like, they’re trying new food, they’re trying this, they’re trying that, and all of a sudden, “Oh, you know what, cottage cheese really fills me up.” “Oh, you know what? Like, grilled chicken really fills me up,” and then all of a sudden fat loss becomes easier. Not because now they know calorie deficit, but because they’ve actually tried enough different foods. They’ve spent time going through the grocery store looking at the nutrition labels. They find what works best for them. I think that’s what you’ve done tremendously well, and I think that that’s what a lot of people need to understand is for the first– I mean, it could literally be the first year that you post every single day. You might grow minimally, if at all, like, but it’s that practice that will eventually lead to something

Joe: [00:41:43] 100%.

Jordan: [00:41:44] Did you just see like water pour out of my nose a couple months ago? Did you see that?

Joe: [00:41:48] No.

Jordan: [00:41:49] That’s why I got this. I literally– I have a, I have a serious sinus infection and I just started doing this squirty thing up my nose today.

I took my sweatshirt off and I looked down– and I did that earlier today, and literally just– water came out of my nose.

Mike: [00:42:05] I missed that.

Joe: [00:42:06] Yeah, I missed that, too. I was so, so deep into what you were saying that I missed it.

Mike: [00:42:13] You all right?

Jordan: [00:42:13] Yeah, no, I’m great.

Joe: [00:42:18] Yeah. That consistency part is so important. Um, I’ve only missed two days in three years from posting, and the reason why was: those posts were trending, so I was getting a lot of followers and I didn’t know what the etiquette was back then. Like, “Hey, if I post, why will it slow this down?” So, I kept the wave going.

Um, so I posted one time, two times, even three times a day, uh, for three years straight. And I try to tell people, if this is going to be your main business, like your Instagram is going to drive whatever you do, you have to be as consistent as possible, and you almost have to take the emotions out of it because we get depressed, we get sad, we have other shit to do, but this is your business. You cannot take a day off because– imagine if you just went to a job and took, “man, I’m feeling depressed today. I’m going to take a month off of social media” or whatever your job, you would get fired.

So, I took that same approach with social. I’m like, “I don’t want to do anything.” “I’m sad.” “I’m hung over.” Yeah, something like that, I’m like, “I just don’t want to post,” but I made sure I got it done because each time you post is another opportunity someone might see you.

If I didn’t post one day, maybe this athlete never would have saw me and he never would have come in for a session and now he’s one of my best clients. Or now, you know, he helps me market because he lets me use his name for marketing. Um, you never know. You know, you never know.

Mike: [00:43:51] That’s a great way to think about it.

Joe: [00:43:52] It’s, it’s amazing. And I think I’ve, I’ve watched something of Gary’s too, I think he was talking about– he was talking to a musician. He’s like, “Oh, should I do, uh, concentrate on just one really good song? Or should I put out 30 songs, one a day?” He’s like “30 songs. You don’t know what’s good and you know you don’t never know what’s going to hit.” It could just be, you know, if you spent all this time on one post– which I see on Instagram, a lot of people are perfectionists and they have no followers. They’re like, “I’m going to spend a whole day on this one sick ass video,” and then no one sees it.

So early on I was putting out iPhone– these are all iPhone videos. And it was– I kept it the same format because they were easy to replicate. So, I could bust them out fairly easily and do it at a frequent rate where I never concentrated on the production value yet, because no one was following me at the time. And once people started following me, yeah, maybe I, you know, then I upgraded to an iPhone 10 then I started using Adobe Premiere.

Uh, yeah. So, it’s all about the consistency and just making sure you’re putting stuff out there for people to see or potentially see.

Jordan: [00:45:01] You know, it’s interesting, I think, like all things, there has to be some balance with that, right? ‘Cause you have the on one end of the extreme perfectionists, who are not only trying to make every single post literally perfect, so they only post one time a month and they’re also make trying to make the aesthetic of their page symmetrical and perfect because no one cares. Like stop doing that. But like, on the other end, you have the people who are, like, posting constantly, nonstop, and they’re not keeping any form of quality. They’re more just like, “I’m posting because Gary told me to post a hundred times a day. So, here’s like my like–”

Mike: [00:45:35] A repost of a Lion meme that says, “get it today.”

Jordan: [00:45:39] Yeah, they have like two words in their caption and 47 hashtags, which they just copy and pasted from the last 47 posts and it’s like, there obviously has to be some middle ground in terms of, listen, I’d rather you post one time a day and have it be really high quality than post one time a week and have it be tremendous quality.

But what most people– most people are not posting one time of day. They’re not. And I think, sort of to what you were saying, how if you just take all those days off work just because like you’re upset or whatever it is, or you get fired. This is– and this is one of the things I struggle with, because sometimes I struggle with the saying, um, it’s like “90% of life is just showing up,” and part of me loves that. But part of me also hates it ’cause it’s like, well, no, it’s not just showing up. Like, you actually have to– it’s not just going on your phone, going on Instagram, like, you have to post, you have to interact with people, you have to go out of your way to help people. You have to try and find ways to make your content better, so it’s going to help more people.

It’s not just showing up. It’s not just posting to say, I posted. A lot of people will use the, “oh, well I posted today,” and they’ll check it off their to-do list. It’s like, yeah, but you did that, and literally 32 seconds. Like how about you spend two hours on a post every day for seven days a week for two years? Then we can talk about whether or not you deserve to be frustrated.

Mike: [00:46:55] Absolutely. And another reason why I think Joe can get away with, call it just showing up and posting, are the years prior to being on Instagram where you were doing the real work in person. Where you’re training clients, when you’re working with clients, massage therapy clients, when you were getting your license, when you were doing the things to build your knowledge and experience so that you can condense that into a helpful, bite-sized post at a time.

Joe: [00:47:25] Yeah, exactly. It’s everything from the massage therapy and the training, and then putting it into simplistic form. Again, I totally agree with the quality, it has to have some sort of quality. It can’t just be the repost of a random meme or something, or motivational quote. Um, you know, luckily I found what worked for me, so, it was the right format and it was stretching or self-massage, so I knew it was probably going to work.

So, I had a very consistent model and, uh, that’s why for me, yeah, it was like showing up was good enough because I knew what was working at the time. I had a good– kind of good grasp of what the end goal was, where, yeah, a lot of people just, “I’ll just take a quick picture of me at the gym doing an exercise and put a motivational quote underneath it and like I’m done,” were probably not the greatest way to promote whatever you’re doing. Um, I think a lot of people, they do that– let’s just take a fitness model: shirtless picture, post it, done. 32 seconds. But they don’t see if it’s actually engaging with the people or they’re not going into the comments talking to people.

I mean, I remember the first year I answered every single DM that came in. I answered every single comment. I still answer a lot of comments now. Um, and people tend to just– they don’t have followers and they don’t even do any of that. It’s like, we have followers and we’re doing that. You know, you can’t forget what got you there.

Mike: [00:49:00] That’s a great point.

Joe: [00:49:01] And that’s what people are used to. They’re like, “Oh, Joe actually is answering stuff that I’m asking.”

Jordan: [00:49:05] Gary has the best analogy for this, I love this analogy. Gary says, “if you are posting something and people are commenting and you’re not replying, it’s basically like inviting someone over for dinner and not talking to them.”

Joe: [00:49:17] Yeah.

Jordan: [00:49:18] It’s like, if they’re taking the time out of their day to comment on your posts, you better reply. It’s so interesting, and I think the most cliché post that I see from people in the fitness industry who are like, uh, they don’t know what to post, and they’re almost like resentful that they don’t have a large following and they think they know a lot is the cliché one that I see is: they go to the gym, they post, and they’ll write, “we all have the same 24 hours in a day…” and they’ll talk about how great they are that they got to the gym, and then there’ll be complaining that they, like, aren’t getting followers. I’m like, “listen, we all got the same 24 hours in a day, and I posted three times.”

Mike: [00:49:55] Just dish it right back.

Joe: [00:49:57] That’s so good.

Mike: [00:50:00] You went from not having an Instagram, basically, in early 2017, to over a million, 1.3?

Joe: [00:50:08] I wasn’t, I wasn’t counting, but it was 21 months, uh, from zero to a million.

Jordan: [00:50:13] No one’s counting, but…

Joe: [00:50:14] But it was, it was really easy to find, ’cause I hit 1 million followers last new year day, New Year’s Day.

Jordan: [00:50:20] Oh wow.

Joe: [00:50:21] Yeah. So, it was a really– it ended up being perfect timing. So, it was really easy to figure out when I, uh… And I was counting.

Mike: [00:50:29] Tell us, if you could redo it, what are one to two things you might’ve done differently or what are one or two of the biggest mistakes you feel like you made in that journey?

Joe: [00:50:42] I would say I really like how I set up everything, you know? You know, we were talking about this a little bit before, um, well, so I set everything up so it was all educational on my main page, and then it was more personal stuff on my stories. And then I almost made my, uh, my stories just personal– they used to have some educational stuff in it, but then I went to put some, uh, some of the, uh, some of the–

Jordan: [00:51:11] I’m putting this on my story right now.

Joe: [00:51:14] Yeah, get it. Tag me.

So, I started putting my– more of my personal stuff online, but I was putting educational stuff on there as well. When I stopped putting the educational stuff up, people were like, “Hey Joe, I don’t want to see you drinking coffee. Like, where’s the good stuff? I didn’t come to your page for that.”

So, I started to just transition my IG stories and just put personal stuff. I wish I started putting a little bit more personal stuff in my main page just because that’s where most people, uh, see you, not your IG story. It’s like, everyone comes to see your main page, and then a little bit of that goes and watches your stories if they’re actually into seeing what you’re doing on a day-to-day basis.

And I think adding in a little bit more personality into my main page would have been great. Uh, almost, maybe speaking a little bit earlier too, because I didn’t do a talking post– I did maybe a couple in the first year and a half, two years. Uh, but I didn’t think I was good at speaking in front of a camera, so I decided not to do it.

Uh, but I wish I did a little bit earlier so people could see how, you know, I spoke to people, how my personality was in an educational setting. And they probably would have, um, probably been more into staying there or staying on the page, ’cause I have a pretty big turnover. Uh, it’s interesting looking at the insights on Instagram ’cause you can see turnover, how many people are following you and unfollowing you.

And it’s a lot. Uh, so I’m sitting pretty even now–

Mike: [00:52:41] Like, I’m mobile, my soft tissues good, like, it was a great year, gonna put it all into practice.

Joe: [00:52:47] Exactly. And some of the people that I see in fitness and health– mostly fitness, where they have really great personalities: people stay there forever, pretty much. Uh, and they build just a loyal following and they might have a smaller following, but they’re loyal as hell.

Jordan: [00:53:03] I think that’s a really good point. I remember– I remember when I started posting infographics and it sort of had that same explosion where I was like, “I’m going to do this until it doesn’t work.” If you go back down my feed, there’s, like, just basically a year plus of only infographics and not my face, not my voice, no nothing.

And I remember before– actually Gary said, he was like, “you need to stop posting infographics.” And I was like, “why?” He’s like, “’cause they don’t know who you are.” And I was like, “well, I definitely don’t want to be like, uh,”– the actually the– so Gary said that and I was like, “nah, screw you, whatever.” I was like, “Nope.”

And uh– ’cause it was working so well. I was like, “why am I going to stop doing this?” The comment that made me change my mindset was when someone tagged their friend and said, “I love this account.” It was like– I was like, “I’m not an account. Like, I’m a real person.” And that’s when I was like, I gotta start mixing in individual, personal content as well, both myself and the infographics until eventually I just got tired of making them and everyone was doing it and I wanted to stop– I didn’t want to be like, everybody.

But I think that’s a really good point. The thing that I think is really important to remember and to note: a lot of, like, the “business masterminds” and gurus and whatnot, they’ll be like, “tell your story, tell your story, tell everyone who you are.” And I think that’s important, but not in every post.

And most people they’ll go on though, there’ll be like, “oh yeah, I’m just like, I’m bloated, I’m gluten intolerant.” And that’s every post. It’s every– and it’s like, “listen, that’s great, but you’re saying the word ‘I’ more than you’re saying the word ‘you'”

Like, every post is about you– is about, like, well, “this is me, this is me, this is me, this is me.” And none of it is actually, how can the person reading actually benefit? Rather than be like, well, “I’m gluten intolerant. I’m bloated on this,” and be like, “if you struggle with being gluten intolerant, if you are bloated on a consistent basis, here’s what you can do. Here are three practical strategies to improve that.” Basically, like, if you struggle with mobility, if you struggle with, like, back pain, whatever it is, and you’ve done it really well in terms of all the education piece, adding in the personal bit, I think most people, they have sort of 80% about them and 20% education.

They really need to flip it where it’s like 80% education and 20% about them, and then the bigger you get, and the more people know you and find you and they care about you, then this ratio can sort of split almost like 60-40, 50-50 maybe. But if you’re spending more time talking about yourself than you are about actually education, you’re missing the boat.

Joe: [00:55:40] Yeah. It’s– I actually had a buddy, he was doing so much motivational stuff. And I’m like, “you’re a fitness guy. That’s what you’re into.” But he’s like, “no, I want to be a motivational guy.” I’m like, “well, do the fitness stuff first and then get your following. Mix– sprinkle it in, and then shift.” I mean, that’s what I did with my therapy, my massage therapy business, my Instagram, it’s, I started to slowly shift into the other direction where it was almost a hundred percent massage where my income came from.

And then I was like, “you know what? I need to figure out the other side of things.” And then I would cut down a little bit on the massage therapy sessions, and then now I had my online business, and then as my online business grew, I’d shut down some of the hours that I had in my therapy business until now it’s the opposite of what I did before. I still do sessions, but it’s definitely not as much. Um, and another thing about the whole personal stuff in like– I see a lot of sob stories and it’s, “Oh, you know, you know, I broke up with blah, blah, blah. They were cheating on me. Um, I feel so bad… join my mastermind group,” at the bottom, right?

You see that all the time. All these fitness people, they, they’re just like, “Aww, feel bad for me. Blah, blah, blah.” And then at the bottom, it’s the sell. And I’m like, well, how truthful is this? Like, are you just trying to sell me on something or do you actually feel this way? So that’s all that– I mean, when you talk about it, I’m like, oh my God, this is straight up– I’ve seen this so many times where they’re just trying to sell their ebook or something.

Jordan: [00:57:12] That was good, man. I mean, so let’s–

Mike: [00:57:15] Tell us about the book some more.

Joe: [00:57:16] Yeah, so the book, uh, you know, I got my Instagram and I kind of live in this Instagram bubble.

Jordan: [00:57:21] What’s your Instagram?

Joe: [00:57:22] Uh, @joetherapy.

@joetherapy on Instagram. JoeTherapy on YouTube. And you can find me at joetherapy.com. Uh, but the book is–

Jordan: [00:57:32] Not on Twitter though, cause someone else took–

Joe: [00:57:33] Someone has JoeTherapy  on Twitter, that is not me. Some guy named Joe Bradbury.

So, not on Twitter. Don’t follow @joetherapy on Twitter.

Uh, but I wanted to create the book because I wanted to help more people because again, I live kind of in this Instagram bubble. It’s my first passion, you know? So, I wanted to be able to reach other people that might not be on Instagram.

And it was just another way to simplify things too, because I keep everything simplified on Instagram and in the book it’s simplified, it’s categorized in body parts, it also helps you structure some, uh, some programs on your own. You know, you know your body best, so you should be able to structure your own program.

Uh, but it was really important for me to also include some stuff on, like, the soft tissue work, uh, foam rolling and including things like strength because I don’t talk about it too much on my Instagram because I think there’s people like you, uh, Mike and Jordan, that can do way better job on the strength side than I can.

You guys put your whole lives into that where I put more of my concentration on more of the mobility side. So, I rather leave that to the people who are better at it than I am, but I wanted to incorporate it in my book to show that it’s not just about stretching, it’s about incorporating different parts of health and fitness and making one pie.

Uh, and then hopefully that will help, uh, the people who are afraid of strength training to maybe get motivated to do more of it. It’s almost like, it’s like a gateway drug. You know, start with, start with–

Mike: [00:59:09] In the best possible way.

Joe: [00:59:10] Yeah, in the best way.

Jordan: [00:59:11] Start with glute bridges, end with deadlifts.

Joe: [00:59:16] And then, so I wanted to make sure that that was part of it. ‘Cause a lot of the people that comment on my stuff, they don’t work out. But maybe if they start stretching, doing mobility exercises, feeling better in general, and then mixing in that strength stuff, you know, it might inspire them to run that 5K race, maybe get a trainer, go to the gym a little bit more.

Uh, so that was really important for me.

Jordan: [00:59:39] Even just doing that in front of their kids. Taking nine minutes out of their day to do a mobility routine from you, from the book and have their kids watch them do that. I think– this is one of the things that I think, uh, I mean the amount of research showing what your parents do radically affects what your children do is just staggering.

And to have your parents take time out of their day to focus on stretching in as little as nine minutes, ten minutes, whatever it is — it’s super important. And like, if nothing else, now there’s like a clear-cut routine for what they can do to improve and their kids can join in, like, and everyone likes those Instagram videos. If you have kids, you want to get your kids in the video, stretching with you or doing whatever, like, those do really well. And it actually is great for the kids too.

Mike: [01:00:22] Yeah. That’s absolutely right.

We know you’ve got to get to Brooklyn, so–

Joe: [01:00:27] Gotta go to BK.

Mike: [01:00:28] We’ll let you go.

Jordan: [01:00:29] Thank you, Joseph.

Mike: [01:00:29] This was really fun. We appreciate talking to you.

One last question– not Joseph! Joe, Jordan.

Was the gateway drug thing, something that you talked about with the marketers of the book or did that just, was that spur of the moment?

Joe: [01:00:41] That’s me. That’s all me.

Mike: [01:00:43] I love it.

Joe: [01:00:43] You know, that’s what I thought about because it’s kind of true. It’s like you start with– I guess you have to flip it, so it’s good. It’s not a bad thing–

Mike: [01:00:49] Right, but it leads you to something better.

Joe: [01:00:52] Yeah, and I think people who struggle with pain, you know, they go directly to– and I talk about this in the book a little bit about, “Oh, what stretch can I do? What massage thing can I do?” And it doesn’t really get to the underlying issue where strength definitely has a part in fixing, you know, “fixing” you. And a lot of people don’t know that.

So, if they understand what’s, you know, what’s the truth and reads the book and they can, you know, get rid of all the BS out there, all the products they’re trying to sell you to “fix” you, and kind of go take a natural approach. You can do it on your own, use your, you know, use your stretching and your body and your strength to accomplish that, then, you know, that’s the, the point of the book.

Mike: [01:01:39] Amazing.

Jordan: [01:01:40] Love it, man. Thank you for coming on.

Mike: [01:01:41] JoeTherapy, ladies and gents.

Joe: [01:01:42] Thank you for having me.

Jordan: [01:01:43] Ever since you said the word “pie” I’ve been wanting pie. So, uh, my, I have to get some of that. Thank you, man. This is great.

Joe: [01:01:49] Oh, thanks for having me.

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