Jordan: [00:00:10] What’s up, Michael?
Mike: [00:00:12] Hello, Jordan.
Jordan: [00:00:14] How are you?
Mike: [00:00:15] I’m most excellent? How are you?
Jordan: [00:00:17] I’m good. Having some coffee, having some coffee with some cream in it for all the people who freak out about having cream in their coffee when they’re trying to lose fat.
Mike: [00:00:25] I like that. Enjoyment, for the win.
Jordan: [00:00:30] What about you? What are you sipping? Are you drinking anything right now?
Mike: [00:00:32] Yeah, I’ve got some H2O. Just trying to stay hydrated. Keep the glycogen stores topped off. Try to facilitate maximal muscle gain here in my parents’ basement in Minnesota. Getting sun, sleeping 10 hours a night, lifting weights. Did a little deadlifting today, little speed work.
Jordan: [00:00:50] That was good. It looked great.
Mike: [00:00:52] It felt good.
It felt good.
Jordan: [00:00:54] Working out in a very grungy little gym.
Mike: [00:00:57] Yeah. It’s, it’s decent.
Jordan: [00:01:00] That’s my favorite kind of gym to workout in. Like, not fancy, not bougie, just like a little underground-style gym.
Mike: [00:01:09] Yeah. I completely agree. I actually wish it was more grungy than it is, but yeah, it’s a solid setup I have here. But before we even get into anything, I was just reading our reviews — which I don’t know if you’ve checked them out recently, but people say the nicest things about us, which I was maybe not shocked by, but just very, very appreciative of. And so, I want to give them some quick love and some shout outs to:
Swolaire, ASG1030, Chantillysparkleprincess — I don’t know how you put your name in for an Apple review, but I love these names, by the way — Jessica Kelley, CoachB2015, Fitfambysam, Jenn June, TrainNYC, Daryl645, and DontStopWontStop.
Thank you for the reviews. I was actually going there for ideas on this podcast to kind of add on to what you and I had already spoke of and, yeah, people are loving the podcast, which just is more motivation to keep doing them.
Jordan: [00:02:10] Yeah. And I haven’t told you this, I checked the reviews obsessive compulsively.
Mike: [00:02:18] I did not know that.
Jordan: [00:02:19] I check them daily. I literally check the reviews daily. It motivates me for sure, it’s one of the things that I really value, the reviews people leave. And I’m actually really glad that you went out of your way to thank them.
We did not discuss this. I didn’t know he was going to do that, but we appreciate it immensely.
It’s so funny because podcasts are the one medium that I know of that have the least ability to communicate with your audience, from the perspective of the “engagement in the comment section,” stuff like that. You can’t even reply to a review on Apple Podcasts. So I feel like on one end from the actual content side of it, we get the best communication because it’s a long form piece of content with in-depth discussion, but on the back end of it, we get very little opportunity to actually connect with people and engage with them.
So, I love that you just shouted everybody out and to everyone who’s left a review, thank you so much.
Mike: [00:03:19] Yeah, we really appreciate it.
It’s amazing that people are taking what we’re saying and applying it and that it’s helping and hitting home and helping them become better coaches and grow their business. It feels good to have that impact. So, thank you.
What else is going on Jord?
Jordan: [00:03:41] I hate it when Mike calls me, Jord.
When did you start doing that? Was that because Gary started doing that?
Mike: [00:03:52] It was disconnected. I told you I have a good friend of mine that I played hockey with in high school named Jordan, who we called “Jord,” and, I don’t know, I think maybe quarantine just got to my head at one point in March and I started calling you Jord.
Jordan: [00:04:10] If anyone wants to play this game with Mike, you can go DM him on Instagram and tell him you want him to grow a goatee. He’ll love that.
Mike: [00:04:18] The joke is on anyone who DMs me on Instagram, because I haven’t seen those messages since December.
Jordan: [00:04:26] Oh, man.
Mike: [00:04:26] So feel free.
Jordan: [00:04:29] But, uh, reading a great book right now. Reading “Antifragile,” which is the first book I’ve read in a while that has really completely and utterly captured my attention. For example, the book that you and I read with Pat, “10 Philosophical Mistakes,” very cool. I enjoy reading it. I mainly enjoy reading it because of the discussions we have on Saturday about it.
And so, I can sort of clarify what was said, but during reading it, I’m gonna be honest with you, I don’t like it. Some of the chapters, I’d say two out of the eight chapters or so that we’ve read, I’ve enjoyed reading. But the other six chapters have been like a wrestling match. They’ve been super difficult to read and I get through them and I’m like, “I don’t think I comprehended 70% of what I just read.”
So, I really enjoy “Antifragile” because I know the author is not only outrageously smart and if he wanted to make it more complicated, he could. But also, because it’s just rapidly warping my views in a positive way about how to become a better, more antifragile person.
Mike: [00:05:39] Yeah. I read it a number of years ago and am re-listening to it on audio book now and yeah, I mean, for one, reading philosophy is just a completely unique beast. It’s incredibly difficult. So “10 Philosophical Mistakes” is very challenging.
I mean, I guess it was written for a mainstream audience, but it sure doesn’t read like it to dopes like you and me.
Jordan: [00:06:03] That’s so demoralizing.
Mike: [00:06:07] But “Antifragile” by Nassim Taleb, who wrote “The Black Swan,” Fooled by Randomness,” he’s got a few other books. The concept in itself is cool because he talks about the antonym to fragility and he says in there, if you go to your family dinner and you ask what is the antonym to fragility, they will say, “robustness,” or he gives a couple of examples, “resilience,” which, like robustness would withstand that chaos, but “withstanding” isn’t the antonym of “falling apart.” The antonym of “falling apart” is actually “growing stronger,” “growing bigger,” “improving,” and that’s what the concept of “antifragility” is.
Jordan: [00:07:01] Yeah. The example he used that I think was very sticky and hit home with me was when we think of fragile, you might think of the vase that’s on your living room table or something.
And it’s fragile. You wouldn’t want your seven-year-old nephew tearing into the room, bumping the table and having it fall over because it’s fragile, it’ll break. And a lot of people, like you said, think the antonym to “fragility” is “resilience” or “robustness,” and he just makes fun of those, he’s like, “they’re silly. You don’t want resilience. What is resilience? It’s silliness,” which makes me sort of rethink a lot of what I’ve done because I promote resilience all the time. But either way he says, when people think of the antonym to fragility, they think the vase might not break. Like, you get a thicker vase, a sturdier vase, a well-built vase that doesn’t break.
The issue with that is, though: it doesn’t get stronger as a result of falling. So the antonym to “fragility” is actually “antifragile,” which, let’s say you had a vase that when your seven year old nephew tears into the room hits the table and the vase falls down, think of the vase actually getting reinforced, getting stronger, more resilient against actually being able to break so that someone could kick it and nothing would happen to it.
It’s like, it not only doesn’t break, but it actually improves its ability to resist breaking as a result of it.
Mike: [00:08:22] Yeah. Nothing else is jumping out at me from the book at this exact moment, but so many of the concepts — because he pulls from so many places too. He’s talking about everything from macroeconomic policy down to deadlifting.
Jordan: [00:08:41] Yeah.
Mike: [00:08:43] And applying the concept.
Jordan: [00:08:45] That’s such a good point. The part I was listening to today, I’m not quite where you are. I’m close to where you are. But one of the things he was talking about today is how different systems can be more or less antifragile.
So, he was saying, for example, the Titanic. I was like, wow, that really hit home with me pretty big. So he used the example of the Titanic, where he’s like the Titanic sinking, losing however many lives is a terrible, terrible tragedy, but the boating industry, the cruise line industry tremendously benefited from that, because if that didn’t happen, then they would’ve kept building bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger ships that eventually would have held more people and then more people would have died because they hadn’t made that mistake first.
So, along the same lines, you have a plane crash, a plane will crash because of a defect in a plane or an issue with a pilot, whatever it is and it’s terrible. But because the plane industry is not just boiled down to one plane or one company, even, it has many different companies, many, many different planes. Every time a tragedy happens, the plane industry, as a result, gets better. It becomes more antifragile because they learn from the mistake and then they can reinforce the planes and they can re-train the pilots and whatever it is to make it a better, more safe experience.
On the contrary, though, he was talking about the economic system. We have one economic system. And so, if you have a huge crash, it’s not like there are many economic systems in the same country. There’s one. And that’s why it’s way more difficult to have an antifragile economic system as compared to a system with way more variations and subsets of it.
Mike: [00:10:32] It’s a good read. I’m excited too, because I forgot most of this from the first time I had read it. So, I’m excited to be hitting it all again.
Jordan: [00:10:39] I think another part that might be worth discussing is how, at least to this point, how much he’s stressing the importance of exposing yourself to randomness and to stressors.
The importance of deliberately exposing yourself to things that stress you out, deliberately exposing yourself to things that put yourself in a situation in which you’re more exposed to something random happening, because the more you’re exposed to that, the better you get at handling it, the more antifragile you become.
Whereas the more you avoid randomness, the more you avoid these types of situations, then the more difficult it becomes to deal with it, the more difficult it is when it actually happens, the more likely you are to sink versus the more you expose yourself to it willingly, the easier it becomes over time.
Mike: [00:11:30] Absolutely. And I think in that thought process, you know, he’s mentioned it multiple times, but he talks about why it’s so important not to seek comfort because seeking the opposite of stressors feels good in the short-term, but actually makes you much more vulnerable in the long-term.
Jordan: [00:11:54] Yeah. Makes total sense. It’s actually one of the reasons why I’m starting to actually legitimately get up earlier. I’ve said for a long time that I want to get up earlier and I’m actually finally — that, and in combination with jujitsu are both seriously drive me to get out of bed earlier, which has been great during this lockdown time in which it’s been very difficult for me to get up at the time I used to.
Mike: [00:12:14] Yeah. I think I had a text from you at 6:00 AM today.
Jordan: [00:12:18] I got up to 7.
Mike: [00:12:20] 7am, New York time.
Jordan: [00:12:22] Yeah, because for much of lockdown, I was getting up closer to 9-9:30, sometimes 10 and it did not make me feel good at all.
Mike: [00:12:33] Yeah. And that’s an important thing to emphasize: your desire to wake up early isn’t out of some machoism or egoism or some kind of like, “I need to be up early grinding,” it’s because you will actually be better on the whole — I’m putting words in your mouth, but I assume you feel you would actually be better in however, many number of ways by forcing yourself to do that thing that doesn’t come as natural and that is more difficult on the day to day.
Jordan: [00:13:08] Yeah. I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever met a person who said that they regret waking up early and having more time early in the morning. I think most people regret sleeping in and most people don’t like “wasting” the morning away, sleeping in bed.
I think most people, it’s very hard to get out of bed in the morning, it’s way more comfortable to stay in under your sheets, nice and warm and comfy. But to get out of your bed, to expose yourself to that uncomfortableness, to that stressor, get out, get a nice walk in, clear your head, make a list for what you’re going to do for the day.
I think in and of itself will improve the quality of your day as opposed to sleeping in, which if you’re staying up till two in the morning, then yeah, maybe you need to sleep in, but then you need to ask why the hell are you staying up till two in the morning? And I’m very much speaking directly to me here, because that’s what I did for a long-time during lockdown.
Mike: [00:13:58] Well, and if someone is having their best, most productive, most creative work of the day, or they’re really doing important things — it doesn’t have to be work — maybe you’re doing manual labor, maybe you’re building a crib for your newborn daughter, whatever the case may be from 10-2, then rock on. Like, get after it and, you know, sleep from 2-9 or 2-10 or whatever.
I actually just saw a funny meme, I think it was @MindPumpSal, that was along the lines of, “if you’re not careful, 10:30 PM is only one minute away from 2:30 AM.”
Jordan: [00:14:47] I saw that! That was yesterday. That was so good.
Mike: [00:14:52] It’s very easy to scroll and consume and just be on your phone, play a game, watch Netflix, you know, to each their own, but for me personally, if I want to go to bed at 10:30 and that’s the plan, and I don’t actually go to bed until 2:30, I’m not pumped about that situation.
That was a mistake by me.
Jordan: [00:15:19] Yeah. I agree.
How’s chess going? You still playing a lot of chess?
Mike: [00:15:23] No. Playing like no chess.
Dude, there’s something very interesting about this change in scenery for me and what it has done to how I spend my time, just being around more people more often. My girlfriend and I are at my parents and my sisters are around a lot, and I’m just on my phone way less.
Jordan: [00:15:50] Yeah.
Mike: [00:15:50] I’m interacting with people. Part of it is just having nature outside. So, when I’ve been listening to audio books, like two minutes away from where I am there’s woods and I went for a 45 minute walk the other morning down this trail where I didn’t see another person for the entire time.
And it’s weird how the atmosphere, how the environment changes my habits, I guess.
Jordan: [00:16:17] Yeah. I mean, it makes total sense. I think, especially during lockdown and everything and being in New York City, especially, where going outside it was heavy, it didn’t feel good. And you’re stuck inside in a smaller apartment and it’s like, “alright, what am I going to do? I could go on TikTok or play some chess.” So I’m going to really try hard to choose the chess option because I know if I go and TikTok I’m gonna not be happy with the end of the next four hours where I’ve just watched a whole bunch of randomness. Funny and very creative randomness, but still that doesn’t feel the most productive.
But yeah, I mean, I think it’s the same thing when I go to Israel. I am never on my phone. Ever. I very rarely go on my phone, I’m much more with family, I’m going out, I’m hiking, whatever it is. I feel like that’s the same with you being home. It’s like when you have more land and space and better air to breathe and family around, it’s so much easier to put the phone down and not be just glued to it.
Mike: [00:17:17] Absolutely. That seems like an exact parallel between us. And I wouldn’t even chalk it up that much to New York City lockdown as just cities in general.
Here’s an interesting one: Taleb talks about, the low-level stressors. He talks about constant expectation from your boss if you’re in some kind of corporate job — and I can relate to this from the accounting work that I did, but just having this constant low-level, procrastination and kind of anxiety around something that you should be doing that you’re not, and there’s this time constraint coming from someone above you, and it’s not work your passionate about, that’s an example of a low-level stressor.
And he talks about how important it is to not have low-level stressors, but instead have real stressors, right? Like, deadlifting for example, but then the opposite of that is real relaxation. So, balancing that yin and yang of real stress and real relaxation. And I don’t know if this is for me personally, because I know so many people love living in big cities, just absolutely love it, and so there has to be some kind of personality difference, but for me, the constant horn honking, the constant low-level noise of the city — people everywhere. When I walk outside here, I just see trees and sun and I hear birds chirping and there’s wind.
You know, if a neighbor’s outside, maybe, but it’s suburban life versus the other day you and I were talking on the phone and I was like, “what’s the vibe like in the city?” You’re like, “it’s pretty good. Like it’s solid.” And then 11 seconds later you’re like, “Oh, oh.” And I was like, “what’s going on?” And you’re like, “some guy just punched another guy in the head.”
I was like, “WHAT?! Are you okay?” You’re like, “yeah. Yeah. It looks like he’s going to be fine.” And it wasn’t that shocking. And there’s obvious benefits, too, to city life, but…
Jordan: [00:19:24] That was so crazy, yeah. And the way you explain that is so funny because I wasn’t like, “Oh my God!” I was like, “Oh yeah, dude, literally just punch that guy in the face.”
Mike: [00:19:36] “He’s checking to see if there’s any blood. He looks like he’s all right, he’s standing. He’s walking.”
It’s not uncommon.
Jordan: [00:19:46] Yeah. This is not going to put you in a good mood — this morning I was walking to jujitsu and there was a group of, I call them kids, but they were probably young twenties just sitting on the sidewalk and blocking the entire sidewalk. And there was an elderly woman, like at least 70, 75, 80 years old with one of the carts that they carry to go to the grocery store or something.
And she was trying to get by, and they wouldn’t move. And they weren’t moving, and I saw her doorman come around and be like, “guys, get up, get off the sidewalk. She’s trying to get through.” And these kids just sat there, and they ignored it. They wouldn’t move and this guy, this is a huge doorman, he started screaming at them, going crazy. And finally, they get up slowly and move.
But this woman couldn’t walk off the sidewalk because of the ledge. And it’s so crazy because I feel like if you saw that and you were living in a smaller town that might’ve made the newspaper in that town, but I saw it, it was really obnoxious, I thought about posting about it, I was like, “eh, never mind.” She finally got through; it was okay. And then I just completely forgot about it. But I do think that there’s probably some deeper-level stress that goes on that is chronically there living in a busy city lifestyle, for sure.
Mike: [00:21:14] That’s the perfect word — chronic.
It’s a low-level, chronic. And even me hearing that is like, “Oh, yep. That sounds about right.”
Jordan: [00:21:27] It sounds like a city.
So, you want to jump into it? What we’re going to talk about today?
Mike: [00:21:36] Let’s jump into it.
So a guy named Luis, who is a brand new member of our Fitness Business Mentorship asked me a few questions and one of these, I know is something that I’ve been asked many times and I feel like it’s something that you and I can just kind of riff on, which is: he asked if I could give a best-case and worst-case example of how long it would take from starting your online fitness business until you’re at a place where the revenue you’re generating from that business fully supports you.
He asked for best and worst case scenario, but just kind of in general, how long does it take to go from starting your business, starting posting on Instagram, making a website, doing the very first things to start your online business, to the point where you’re making enough money solely from online coaching that you can support yourself.
And “so you can support yourself” is going to vary from person to person, right? If you have a family, if it’s just you, if you live in Kansas, or if you live in London, like these things matter. But let’s say, to give a few numbers, just to kind of ground people — 20 online coaching clients paying $200 a month is $4,000 a month, which is $48 grand a year, which is very reasonable in certain places.
We’ll even say you can go from $200 to $300 dollars, which is a reasonable price for online coaching, by 20 clients, that’s $72,000 a year.
So just to kind of give ballpark numbers on what fully support yourself means, how long does that take?
Jordan: [00:23:38] I’m so glad you did that math, because I would not have been able to do that math,
Mike: [00:23:43] I actually did that math before the podcast. So, you can stop giving me so much credit on my adding and multiplying.
Jordan: [00:23:54] I think it’s good though. I think 20 online coaching clients between $200 to $300 a month is very realistic, like very realistic. I literally had a conversation with an old friend of mine the other day and he was asking me, he was like, “man, do you think that succeeding in online coaching is realistic for most coaches, or do you think that’s only like the top 0.01% of coaches who can actually do it?”
And I’m like, listen, first and foremost, if you’re getting into personal training at all to be a millionaire, you’re getting into the wrong industry. That’s number one. Not to say that you can’t do it, but to become a millionaire, yeah, that’s probably not the best industry. Your odds are significantly lower.
Mike: [00:24:41] And when you say “millionaire,” you’re talking about a million dollars a year in income.
Jordan: [00:24:45] Oh yeah. Yeah.
Which, by the way, I know people in the fitness industry who do that. Now, granted their expenses are significantly higher, they have a whole team of people, they do Facebook ads, they spend $30,000 to a $100,000 a month in ads alone on Facebook.
And they usually have a team of like 15 to 50 people on it. So, it’s not all profit. But if you’re getting into this thinking you’re going to be a — you like how you use the correct terminology there? Profit?
Mike: [00:25:17] Loved it.
Jordan: [00:25:18] Yeah. I’m learning, I’m learning.
But yeah, in terms of a million a year in revenue as a one woman or one man show, probably not a great possibility.
Mike: [00:25:32] It’s not a good goal either, because — first of all, it’s funny that we’re taking this part seriously, but we’ll just entertain it for a second — to make a million a year as a one man or one woman show from online coaching, you either need to charge so much per client or have so many clients that you’re going to be working nonstop, you’re going to have to get lucky, you’re going to be completely burnt out and you’re probably not going to deliver.
I’ll go further: you’re not going to be able to deliver a very good coaching service doing that.
Jordan: [00:26:03] Correct.
Mike: [00:26:04] Now, that’s not to say that we’re saying $48k or $72k or even $100k is the max because I know people who have charged $300 to $400 a month and done a great job of coaching 60 to 80, or I know people in the a 100-150 client plus range. There’s a decent ceiling, but if your goal is just “get rich,” this isn’t the place to do it.
And I think most people listening, if they’ve listened to any of our previous conversations, are on the same page with us.
Jordan: [00:26:40] Correct. 100%.
That being said, if your goal is to make — let’s say someone wants to make six figures. We’ll just say that. That’s a very realistic goal for a significant number of people. That is not out of reach.
Mike: [00:26:57] 30 clients, $300 a month.
Jordan: [00:27:02] There we go.
Mike: [00:27:02] It’s $108,000.
Jordan: [00:27:04] That’s incredible. I love that.
I appreciate that you did that because I didn’t know that math, number one, but number two is: that just makes it sound “wow, that’s really not that crazy.”
Like, it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of work to get there, but that number is not outrageous.
There are a significant number of people in the Mentorship who literally started with no social media, no email list, no nothing, and they’re getting 20, 30, 40 online coaching clients, $200 a month, $250 a month.
I know you’ve said it in the past. You said explicitly, one of your major concerns about starting something like this was that you weren’t sure if people could do this en masse. You didn’t think this was something a lot of people could do.
But seeing this system — and it’s not just our system — it’s just hard work and being a good coach. It’s very realistic. It’s very, very doable in the same way that losing body fat and getting stronger and deadlifting 2x your body weight, deadlifting 2.5x your body weight, getting sub 15% body fat for a man, sub 20% body fat from women, it’s all doable.
It doesn’t happen without effort, but it’s very, very doable. And we’ll go more in depth now, but I would say with several years of very hard work.
Mike: [00:28:24] Yes. Yep. That’s exactly right.
And part of the reason it’s good to think about it as several years is because even if that’s a conservative estimate, and even if you do end up doing it faster than that, planning on it taking longer is going to give you more runway, more time before you have to go back to whatever it was you were previously doing with your tail between your legs, because it didn’t work out, right?
If you thought you could go from zero to full time in six months and it doesn’t happen, then you’re not a great place mentally, for one, with expectations missing reality, but also for a lot of people financially, if that’s what you were planning on and it didn’t happen.
I would suggest to plan on it taking a minimum of two years. A minimum of two years of full-time work, of “all right. I’m going to sink everything I can into this.”
Not every waking hour, but we’ve talked about the concept of balance before on the podcast and in the Mentorship and balance not being within a day or a week, but within a lifetime. And when you’re just starting a business, that is an “unbalanced” time, because it’s a time where that has to be one of your top priorities, if not your absolute top priority. Meaning 40, 50, 60 hours a week to get it off the ground for those first two years.
So, we’re not talking like, “all right, throw 5 to 10 hours a week at this little side hustle and you can get there in 18 months to two years,” we’re talking like, really work at it.
Now, does that mean it’s going to take two years? No.
You and I had someone who won a recent challenge, we had a call with him and he said, I think within six months he had 50 clients and he’s charging a little bit less than the $200 mark, just for full context for everyone, so that is possible, but it’s not a good place to set the expectation.
Jordan: [00:30:40] Yeah. And actually, I think it’s worth discussing. We’re not gonna blow up his spot. He knows we’re talking about him and we’re super proud of him. He works so hard. Literally, the issue that he’s struggling with now is he has so much work, he has so many clients and he’s struggling to keep up with it. And actually, he wanted to be so available to all of his clients, he wanted to let them know that he was so available and ready to help them at any time that all of them have his personal phone number. So, they can call, they can text, they can whenever, any time.
And so our discussion with him, was talking about how to better systemize and how to better build out his systems so that he doesn’t burn out and so that he can actually help more people and yada, yada, yada, all this stuff.
But it goes to show you that even when you get to that point, it’s like, it’s very important to set boundaries and your life. Boundaries are super important. But I also think that, especially when you’re just starting out your business, your boundaries can’t be too rigid when you’re just starting out. Sometimes you’ve got to extend your boundaries out a little bit and be okay with giving more of yourself.
And this is a huge argument that I have with so many people. So many coaches who are against giving things away for free or they’re like, “no, you have to say no, no, no.” And I’m like, I think personally, especially when you’re just starting out, you need to be saying yes almost all the time. To any and every situation.
If it makes you uncomfortable, if it feels wrong in your gut, like if you have a supplement company being like, “we’re going to give you X amount in order for you to use this affiliate code,” and that doesn’t feel good to you don’t do it.
But in terms of giving more, in terms of content, coaching, access, I think that’s a hugely misunderstood aspect of what people are paying for. People are paying for access to you and giving them that access will give you more of an opportunity to coach more people, to become a better coach, to give them a better service, and then as your business grows and you get more people, being better at setting boundaries.
But if you don’t have a business, then it’s very difficult to set boundaries to begin with.
Mike: [00:32:51] Absolutely. Which is why you and I both think it’s such bad advice that a lot of these new coaches are getting. And it’s not just fitness and it’s not just business, the advice that you gave.
I think it’s a concept that applies, in the abstract, to most growth opportunities, we’ll call them. And that is early on in the journey you say “yes” to everything, “everything,” most things. And as you progress, it makes more sense to narrow your focus and to start saying “no” to more things. But early on, it’s access, it’s Q&A’s, it’s jumping on calls for free, it’s giving as much free content away as you can.
It’s taking random opportunities, like if someone wants to collab with you and you don’t maybe want to because they have less followers or whatever…do it, say, yes, try it and see what happens. And over time as you have started making progress, it will just make sense to start saying “no,” right? Your schedule will be filled up, you’ll have clients that you need to be attending to, and over time you have to start saying “no” to things just to manage your schedule and your life.
Jordan: [00:34:16] Yeah, that’s exactly right. 100% agree.
Mike: [00:34:19] So I guess the question of the podcast, if we’re going for a point-blank answer, which usually isn’t the case, but in this it kind of is:
at least two years is the answer.
Jordan: [00:34:33] Yeah. I would say at least two and I would lean more towards three.
If your goal is 20 clients, we’ll call it two years, two and a half years, at least. If your goal is 30 clients plus, I’d say probably closer to three years plus. And I think it’s an important distinction to make, because you have to know, and you’ll only learn this through trial and error, where you feel best, right?
Some people will feel. their best at 20 clients. Which is really, if you’re doing it properly, it’s not an outrageous amount of time or work. It doesn’t take that much. 20 clients is not a 40 hour a week job. It’s just not that much.
Mike: [00:35:19] Of coaching, you’re saying.
Jordan: [00:35:25] Correct. Of coaching.
It has nothing to do with content creation or anything like that, but 20 clients is not that many hours a week. It’s not that much.
And that might be perfect for some people. That might be like, it’s a little bit of extra income, it’s a significant amount of extra income, I enjoy doing it, and it’s plenty. And then I can spend a lot of my free time with my husband, my wife, my kids, whatever, traveling, blah, blah, blah.
I remember there was a time in my life where I was answering emails from one of my coaching clients for literally between 8 to 10 hours a day. And I would sit on my couch in the morning and I wouldn’t get back up until later that afternoon, early in the evening, and that’s what I did for a long time.
Mike: [00:36:12] Over-deliver early on.
Jordan: [00:36:14] Yeah, exactly.
And then from there I realized that’s not what I want to do. I didn’t like that I was sitting down all day. I became okay with understanding that less income and working with fewer people in order to benefit my mental and emotional and physical health was what I needed. So, it really does depend on you as an individual and also how in-depth you go with your coaching, right?
I know some coaches prefer doing literal sessions on Skype. Like, all of their sessions are on Skype. So clearly, you’re not going to have as much time to do that versus if it’s all via email. So you have to decide how you’re going to do your sessions, how you’re going to structure your program, and for some people 20 might be great, for some people, they could get up to 80 to 100 clients and there’ll be busy as hell, but it’s still very possible and it’s still very realistic to do depending on who you are and how you’re structuring your systems.
The other thing that I think is really important — and we spoke about this with the person who won the last Mentorship challenge and who has 50 clients right now — one of the things that they said that was very insightful: they asked the question of, “is it normal to have a dip in clients around the summertime, right at the beginning of summertime.” And it got me thinking, because this is only something you learn through years of doing this. You only learn the patterns of buyer behavior in your specific industry through years of doing it.
And it’s important that you understand, just like in every industry, there are seasons in which things are up or things are down. So, for example, I remember in my first two or three years, every time right around late May, early June I would see not only a reduction in coaching applications, but there would be a drop off in number of clients. Every single time for two or three years, late May, early June. And every time I’d get super stressed out. I’d be like, “what am I doing wrong? What’s happening? I don’t know what’s going on.” And I realize it’s because most people who are trying to lose weight for the summer do that around March, April and early May. By the time late May, early June comes, summer’s already begun, they’re starting to travel, they’re saving money for and spending it on vacations with the family and whatnot. And they don’t want to be spending it on fitness stuff, especially when they’re like, “all right, well, this is what my body looks like and I’m not going to change it in the next week or so.”
So, expecting that dip allowed me to have a better understanding of what was realistic with my business and knowing what was coming. I also knew that I would see huge upward trends either right after New Year’s, and also right at the end of summer vacation, right at the end of August, beginning of September, as kids go back to school. Parents have more money to spend on other things outside of vacation and summer camps and whatnot.
So, you only learn this through years and years and years and years of trial and error. And I think that’s part of the process of understanding success isn’t solely based on income. Success is also based on happiness, reduced anxiety levels. It’s based on fulfillment. There are so many aspects of success.
And I think part of that is understanding. If you start to get anxious every year when you see that dip, I don’t think that’s real success yet. I still think you’re in the process of getting it. I think more success would be knowing the dip is coming and not letting it negatively affect you and/or preparing ahead of time to maybe run some type of an option or a sale or a program in advance of that dip so that you can plan forward ahead, and now you cannot be hit too hard financially when that time comes.
I think that is a much better indicator of success. And the only way to do that is to go through the process of two, three, four, five years of this, doing it over and over and over again, to develop your systems and develop your plan and your overall knowledge and understanding.
Mike: [00:40:05] Yeah, absolutely.
Another thought that came to mind related to preparing for the dip, not only psychologically, but you mentioned like a financial strategy of maybe running a sale before getting yourself in a position where you’re okay with that dip — just running your business and personal finances in a way where dips don’t affect you on the day to day level, right?
And that takes time. That doesn’t happen in three months or six months or even a year, but like the early phase of starting a business, the earlier phase of getting out of debt and beginning to save money. Once you have enough savings, the cyclical nature of business won’t affect your spending habits or won’t constrain what you can or can’t do. And when that happens, then the cyclical nature of business doesn’t affect your emotions and your psychology nearly as much.
And you’re better than me at identifying patterns because it wasn’t until you and I spoke about this — I mean, obviously I get the New Year’s thing. Like, I’m not an idiot, but usually if I was seeing a dip, maybe late spring into summer or mid-summer, I just always assumed I sucked. I was like, “man, gotta up that content a little bit. I must be really giving them some crap.” But yes, knowing that there are buyer cycles outside of your control as a coach and business owner allows you to, both mentally and logistically, financially prepare for those ebbs and flows.
Jordan: [00:41:53] Yeah. I agree completely. And I think it’s important to really clarify and emphasize — and it sounds cliché and hippy-dippy, but it’s true — only looking at your income as the sole marker of success is like someone only looking at their body fat percentage as a sole marker of success in fitness.
It’s like, if someone is 6% body fat but they hate how they look, they have a terrible disordered relationship with food, that person is not successful. They might look successful, but they’re not happy, they’re not fulfilled, they have trouble going out to eat with friends and family, that’s not anyone’s goal. No one’s goal is to look that way and hate themselves.
Their goal is to be able to be at a point in which they can sustain it happily and feel fulfilled and also be able to help people while still supporting themselves, supporting their family, and building a wonderful life, and feeling supported and safe within your economics, right? So if you’re only looking at your income as the sole marker of success, but you’re telling your clients not to focus on the scale as their sole marker of success, then you need to take your own advice and stop only focusing on the numbers and also understand there are many other aspects that go into this.
So if you’re taking on more clients or maybe even if you’re able to reduce your number of clients that you have, but you’re okay with it, you can afford it, you feel better about it, I would say that’s a better marker of success than constantly feeling the anxiety and need to get more clients just to make more money.
Mike: [00:43:20] Mhmm.
I think you could even double down on that and push it further. And I don’t know if I’m going to be able to explain this correctly, so maybe help me out, but I think the scale is a better metric of fitness success — it’s not the only metric, obviously, but I think the scale is a better metric of fitness success than income is of “life success.”
To use extreme examples, let’s use body fat percentage: let’s say that a man goes from 55% body fat to 22% body fat. We know that he has made dramatic progress there. Whereas money is just a tool for life, right? To make money the end, the peak of your value hierarchy or one of the top things that you’re going after, unless you have very good reason to do so, and probably for a short amount of time, is not gonna make most people happier. It’s not going to lead them to be fulfilled.
I don’t think it should be the — who am I to tell someone else with their values are — but even for a short amount of time, it seems to me that it’s an improper way to live, to make money the number one focus of life.
Going from zero to getting your feet under you is obviously huge and drastically impacts quality of life, but beyond that, you know, I think I’ve told the story about Joe Rogan and Tim Ferriss podcasts from like 2009 or very early. They were being very — this is no knock on either of them — but I felt like they would be more authentic then about their personal lives in discussion whereas now, with more elevated levels of fame, they keep more of that private. But they were talking about doomsday planning and like, you know, “if a meteor hits the earth, do we need a bunker? And which state should it be in?”
And these are guys who are talking about seven and eight figures of savings and how to allocate that savings to maximize security in life. Which, to me, what I took from that at the time was, “okay, so there’s no amount of money where you feel completely secure.” Like, we’re all mortal, we’re all gonna die. There’s no top where you’re like, “Oh yeah, I feel good and confident.”
The absence of fear, in any way, can’t be bought.
Jordan: [00:46:16] Yeah. You know, our buddy, Pat Flynn, he said something to me years ago that really hit home. He said, “money can solve problems until a certain point in which it will actually create more problems than it solves.”
And I’m really glad he said that to me. I think I was 24, 25 at the time. I had a number of business coaches throughout my career earlier on, in my early twenties, and Pat was by far the best. Pat was extraordinary. He helped me a lot with email marketing. We did a podcast with Pat on here about email marketing, if you haven’t listened to that yet.
And Pat really helped me a lot. He still helps me a lot to this day. And I think that saying really hit home with me early on, because I think it’s very easy for anybody, but especially young people — and looking back at myself. I didn’t have a lot of money growing up at all. Money was always a problem with my family. Always. It was always a huge source of stress and anxiety for my parents. And it was just bled into everything that we did. So, I think for me, it was always top of mind. It’s sort of like you have the kid who the parents are always micromanaging what they’re eating and maybe making the kid weigh themselves, like that person develops a very unhealthy relationship with food and their bodyweight and their self-image.
When your parents are constantly, constantly talking about how terrible the money situation is and how awful the money situation is and all that, you develop a pretty skewed relationship with money and a very fearful relationship with it. So I think especially young people to — generalize I’d say especially young men — and to specifically focus on me, a young man in that situation, growing up with the money problem, it was very easy for me to focus on money markers.
And if it wasn’t for that conversation and working with Pat, understanding that there are huge problems after a certain point and if you continue to chase it past those problems, you create a terrible cycle of anxiety and a terrible cycle, a terrible relationship with money that it’s just never enough.
And I think we can look at this also with body image and fitness. Once you get to a certain level of leanness, you never, ever want to not have abs. You’re completely petrified of ever gaining body fat. It’s like, once you have it, it’s like, “well, there’s more and there’s more and there’s more.”
And then using a lot of drugs and all this stuff, just to have a certain physique, it’s never enough. There are some really amazing interviews with some world-famous bodybuilders and physique competitors who like, they look in the mirror and they’re huge, they’re massive, and they don’t see it.
I believe it was Jay Cutler, the one I’m thinking of. I might be wrong, so don’t hold me to that. I believe it was Jay Cutler, who he was looking in the mirror during an interview and he was like, “I just feel like I look small.” And I was like, “wow, like, you’re one of the biggest people in the world!”
But it’s the same thing where I think people might, on the outside, maybe their net worth makes them rich, but they have a poor mindset and that’s a very, very dangerous place to live, which is why I think it’s important to set markers of where, “okay, cool. This is where a good marker to get to,” and from there, maybe stop chasing that.
Like, make a marker that you’ll be safe, you’ll be secure, you’ll be comfortable, you’ll be happy, and then from there, once you, like you said, get your feet underneath you, then you can start focusing on other things that will make you happier and more fulfilled, and they might also make you more money, but they might not. And that’s okay.
Mike: [00:49:49] It’s making that conscious decision to do something that you know isn’t the way to maximize income but is the best decision for you to be making for a variety of other reasons.
I think the same can be said for having fame at the top of a value hierarchy or something to pursue, and is something that a lot of people unintentionally fall into, you know? Get into things for the right reasons — and I won’t even say a lot of people — I’ll say everyone to some degree, and it affects some people more or less than others, but anyone who’s putting themselves out there and has a follower count and a “like” count, there is going to be a little bit of that, call it micro-fame as a value.
You said something super interesting on Jay Cutler. Personally, I am so lucky that I have, maybe in the last five years, realized that I have the opposite problem. And I think I’ve talked to you about this once or twice in private, but even when I’m at my worst, I think I’m jacked.
Like, I can be really slacking on my training and in the last, maybe two or three years, this has happened, and I can weigh 160 pounds soaking wet and I can think that I have a lot of muscle. And I just don’t. It’s like the opposite of that issue, which is a great issue. It’s very fortunate to not have to deal with the bad side of that.
Jordan: [00:51:34] You said something interesting about follower count and all that stuff, and as I’m talking and as I’m “giving advice” and “preaching,” whatever it is, I hate when people say “I’m preaching,” as I’m giving advice, I’m literally thinking — even just earlier conversations you and I had today, I’m like, maybe I want to stop posting so much because I’ve never had more anxiety than when my audience has continued to grow.
And it’s created a huge amount of stress and anxiety for me. And as I’m literally talking right now, telling people to focus on fulfillment and happiness and doing what makes you feel good, I’m realizing I’m being a hypocrite.
And it’s not like my goal is “all right, get more followers,” it’s like, I want to help more people, but I’ve literally been doing it and getting more anxious as my audience grows. And it’s not making me any happier. It’s not making me any happier to see the numbers go up. It’s making me more and more anxious
Mike: [00:52:40] To your credit, I think that you actually have really good balance within your life right now.
Jordan: [00:52:49] I agree. I think it’s the most balanced it has been in a while.
Mike: [00:52:52] Like, within socializing, doing dinners with people, within consistent jujitsu, workouts, physical health, your own nutrition. I know so many people who are always “on” and it’s all geared at, doing many things, but one of them being growing that number. And like I said, I think it affects literally everyone who puts content out.
Whether they’re at 770, whether they have 7 followers and they see that number jump, they like seeing that number jump.
Jordan: [00:53:32] Oh, absolutely.
And if you see the number go down and you’re like, “I suck. What’s going on?” Immediately.
Mike: [00:53:40] That’s worse than if you see it go up a little bit you’re like, “alright, things are going,” but if it goes down, you’re like, “what, what?!”
Jordan: [00:53:46] I think for me, I’m definitely the most balanced I’ve been. For me, the biggest fear of all of this — and you and I have spoken about it — is “cancel culture.” And you see it all the time. You see people just go after people, trying to tear them down.
Almost like there’s this weird happiness of watching someone’s, not only career, but their life fall apart. It is so scary to me and I’m like, “whew, maybe I just want to chill out and not grow anymore.”
Mike: [00:54:28] “I saw Jordan today in Manhattan and he saw five kids blocking an old lady and he didn’t do anything about it. Cancel Jordan.”
Jordan: [00:54:38] “Jordan saw this guy punch another guy in the face and he was on the phone telling his friend about it.”
Whatever it is. I mean, there are any number of things and I think the reason I bring it up is because I don’t want to pretend like I’ve got it all figured out.
Like, I still struggle with this stuff, too. Which is why I think — and I think it’s something you said earlier — chasing money, and again, who are we to judge, but chasing money is probably not the best way to live, right? As the sole goal. I don’t think chasing followers is the best way to live.
And I think that it’s important for people to hear that if you’re struggling with either, you might be focused on the wrong thing or maybe you’re struggling with motivation or you’re struggling with consistency or struggling with coming up with content, whatever. You might be struggling with something. Everyone is struggling with something.
I think just from the messages that I get from people, it’s important for me to clarify, I struggle too. And so, you’re not alone. It’s part of the process. And no matter how successful you think someone is, they’re still struggling with something.
It’s just always important to remember that.
Mike: [00:55:51] Absolutely. I feel like that’s a great place to end on.
Actually, no. I’m going to ruin that nice little perfect finish that you just did because Taleb talks about antifragility of reputation as it relates to career choice. Maybe we’ll pick up on this more in-depth at another point, kind of once we maybe consume the whole book, but he talks about how saying one wrong thing for certain employees, certain types of workers, can literally get them fired now, in this current culture, or it can have a drastic negative effect on them. Whereas, there are certain professions that are less removed from your reputation.
He uses writer as the example of a reputation. Like, if people are attacking your reputation, if people want to “cancel” your book, if there’s controversy around you or what you’re putting out, that’s an antifragile profession, because it actually brings more attention to your work.
And he talks about in the past, when there have been banned books, how the sales of those books — and he gave a specific example, I don’t remember what it was — but he said 23 states banned a book and the sales of that book skyrocketed because people wanted to know, “is this person really that awful and they’re saying such bad things that it had to be banned?” They wanted it.
And so, from the writer’s perspective, from their business and success there, it actually improves with attacks on reputation.
Jordan: [00:57:37] Yeah, that was very interesting. I think he said something to the effect of, “if you ever want to get someone to read a book, tell them that it’s overrated,” or something.
Which I almost questioned. I was like, “I don’t know.” Because like when I really go out of my way to sing a book’s praises, people get it. But if I say it’s overrated, they’re like, “ehhh.” So, I don’t know if that was the best word choice on his part.
Mike: [00:58:04] I didn’t like how he explained that part either. Because he said, if it’s underrated people won’t buy it.
Jordan: [00:58:11] Yeah, I don’t know if that’s accurate. But I do like the concept of when something is off limits, it now becomes something that you want to understand or experience.
For example, for my entire life every time I walked by a fire alarm I just want to pull that thing so bad because I know I’m not supposed to. And I feel the inner A.D.D., 12 year old kid, troublemaker, doing stupid stuff on the playground, I feel that inner kid come out every time I want to pull a fire alarm because I know I’m not supposed to.
So, I almost think it’s like that with a book — if you’re not supposed to read a book, then okay, well, now you want to read it. Like, “what’s in that book?” Sort of like when you’re a kid and your parents say “no, R rated movies,” it’s like, well, what do you want to do? You don’t care what the movie is. If it’s R you want to watch it just because you’re told you’re not supposed to.
If your curfew is 10, you want to be out ’til midnight. If your curfew is midnight, you want to be out until 2. It’s like, whatever you’re not supposed to do, you do. I forget the word for it, but in Amish culture, there is a certain year in which kids get to a certain age, I believe they’re 18, I could be wrong — there was a reality TV show about this number of years ago — but there’s a year in the Amish culture, where, when you’re a kid, you have the opportunity to take a year away from your family, from Amish culture to go out and to do whatever, to live not the Amish lifestyle and to see if you want to continue to live in that way or not.
And so, the reality TV show is basically kids who are in an Amish lifestyle, then come to New York City or whatever, and they party and they get drunk and do all this stuff, and apparently for everything that you do during that year, it’s forgotten. You don’t mention it, you don’t talk about it, but nothing bad will happen to you for that year.
If you don’t come back after that year, then you’re not welcome and if you do come back, then everything is forgotten. And so, I could imagine what it would be like to be Amish and be a kid there and live in that society with whatever it is that they do. And just want to know, like, “what’s going on in culture?” “What’s going on in society?” “What am I not experiencing?” Because whatever you’re not allowed to experience, you want to experience it.
So, I think that might’ve been what he was trying to get across with that aspect where if a book is completely off limits, all right, well now I gotta read that book.
Mike: [01:00:40] Yeah, that’s fascinating.
And that’s new to me. I would imagine that the fact that they get a year to do that actually increases the likelihood of people — you know, I’m not familiar, so forgive my word choice — but like, staying with the community or continuing with the lifestyle.
Jordan: [01:01:02] I literally just looked it up right now. So, it’s called Rumspringa. Rumspringa, also spelled Rumschpringe or Rumshpringa is a Rite of passage during adolescents translated in English as “jumping or hopping around” used in some Amish communities.
Good thing I watched that reality TV show as a kid. But yeah, I would imagine that once the year is up, they might realize “I was happier. I was more fulfilled being in a society that doesn’t have the values current modern-day society does.” I could very much see that.
And I actually, I mean, I’m not thinking about becoming Amish anytime soon or living an Amish lifestyle, but I’m so excited to get out of New York and to have more land and to live in a little bit more of an isolated area, have a gym that is just my gym or whatever.
Mike: [01:02:02] It’s funny to watch how personality and values and preferences shift through life.
I remember for like three months in college — this literally hit me today — so, “utilitarian” is a term that nowadays seems to be used primarily like, “Oh, Mike, doesn’t care about the taste of food. He’s a utilitarian. He just likes it as fuel.” That’s the way it’s used. But in a philosophical sense, “utilitarian” is someone who basically wants everyone to be on the same playing field or for everyone to have the exact same of everything. And I remember raising my hand in a random accounting class — if you can imagine the average accounting professor, this must have pissed him off so much because it was a very simple example where money was being given away and you’re supposed to rate how much you wanted it. And I remember rating it lower and it was anonymous and everyone rated it a 10 in the class, 100 people, and I rated it like a 4 and he was like, “well, one idiot in the class doesn’t understand how this project works.” And raised my hand and I was like, “actually I’m a utilitarian and I just think that other people would benefit from having the money more than I would benefit.” And he just shook his head like, “you’re an idiot, kid.”
But you know, now my viewpoints have shifted, and I remember when you first got to New York City, starting coaching Gary. I remember when I first got to New York City, just what are our values and focus and how we spent our time and what we cared about the most and kind of slowly, over time experiencing how that has changed is cool.
Jordan: [01:03:51] Yeah, it is super cool.
I remember for so long — I mean, New York is still my favorite city, even though right now, it’s just a very heavy place to be — it’s still my favorite city in the world. I remember for a long time, people would say, “well, what do you like about it?” And I’d have a number of answers, which one of them being no matter who you are, where you come from, what you’re interested in, what your background is, there’s always something for you, which still holds true. There’s something for everyone. And everyone is welcome and accepted. It’s like very, very cool in that sense.
The other thing that I would say is “everyone is always grinding.” That was one of my top things. I was like, “people are working day and night, waking up early, going to bed late, constantly working. They’re just going.” And I still respect that because very much part of this city is like you come here to work and you come here because dreams can be made here and you have an opportunity to, not live a lavish lifestyle, but you live in a tiny apartment with a bunch of people that’s pretty far removed from everything, and then slowly you build and you build and you build and you work and then you can upgrade and then you can build and you build and build and you upgrade.
And you can like, in this one city go from nothing to a tremendous amount in many different areas of your life. And I was like, “man, I just love the grind here.”
And I still respect it, but now I’m at a point in my life where I’m like, “all right, I’ve had enough of the grind.”
Mike: [01:05:23] It’s the energy. It’s the energy of the city. Same here, by the way. I loved being on a packed subway at seven o’clock in the morning with a 19-inch laptop open, bumping into someone’s legs, writing a post about weighing meat cooked versus raw. And like, having people pressed on me on both sides and reading while I was writing, just everyone in that “energy cocoon.”
I loved that. And now I don’t.
Jordan: [01:05:57] “And now I hate it.”
Mike: [01:05:59] And now I just want to go for a walk in nature and listen to the birds chirp. And who knows, maybe that will shift back, too. But not right now,
Jordan: [01:06:09] It’s so funny because I grew up in a really rural area of Boston, outside the city. And I remember being a kid and being like, “Oh, there’s just nothing to do here. Dah, dah, dah. And I can’t wait to live in a city.” And I’ve lived that life now and now I’m like, “wow…”
It’s all perspective, right? It’s just perspective. And now that I’ve done both and I have been so far removed from what I had previously. I’m just like, I cannot wait to just not have that chronic low-level, ever-growing, ever present stress and just wake up to the sun coming up and to birds or whatever it is. I remember, I was really lucky, I had a pretty big lawn and during the spring there would be deer in the lawn and like they would come in, we had this pond that every spring would fill up with water, but during the winter and fall, there would be no water in it. So every year the rain would fill up and make it a pond and ducks would come every year and they would be in the same pond and we would feed them straight from our porch and you just don’t get that in the city. And I’m super excited, I’m just like, all right, I need fresh air, better air quality, walk around in the grass with bare feet, step on a random acorn that really hurts and be like, “ah! Ah!”
Mike: [01:07:29] Antifragility.
Jordan: [01:07:30] There we go. Exactly.
I had a gravel driveway growing up and I would literally play basketball barefoot on the gravel and I never thought about it in that sense, but I think it’s, I have literally nothing to add to that conversation other than just thinking about, “wow. I used to just run on rocks.” I think that’s pretty damn cool.
Mike: [01:07:51] Yeah. Built up the bottoms of your feet.
Jordan: [01:07:53] Now I’ve just got wussy feet. New York feet. They’re just wuss. You always have shoes on.
Mike: [01:08:01] There’s also something to be said about what you’re trying to accomplish and where you are locationally as a result. Meaning when your main priority is business, when your main priority is work, when your main priority is building connections, when your main priority is a specific client who lives in a certain city and so you need to be in that city because they’re in that city versus, you know, if I think out to my future, I think out to friends of mine or people I know. Raising a family in the city is definitely a different experience to other parts of the country or even other parts of the world.
Jordan: [01:08:46] Yeah. This was good, man.
This was a good episode.
Mike: [01:08:50] Great podcast. We kinda blended the personal, random talk into the whole thing, which I have no problem with whatsoever.
Jordan: [01:08:58] I like it.
I want to say a huge thank you to everyone for listening. This question, you said it was from Luis?
Mike: [01:09:06] Luis.
Jordan: [01:09:06] This is from Luis in the Mentorship, so Luis, thank you so much for asking. We hope this was helpful to you and to everybody listening. Also want to say, because you’ve been getting a lot of questions about the Mentorship and one of the major questions is, can you join any time or is there one specific time? You can join any time you want.
We’ll put a link in the show notes if you want. We would love to have you in the Mentorship, everyone who is in the Mentorship right now, we’re super proud of you, super impressed with everything you’re doing, just seeing a tremendous amount of effort and growth. So, that’s it. Have a wonderful day.
Mike: [01:09:53] Bye everyone.