0:00:04 Mike Vacanti: Hello and welcome to episode 28 of the How To Become A Personal Trainer Podcast. We are your hosts Mike Vacanti.
0:00:10 Jordan Syatt: My name is Jordan Syatt. And we’re really excited because this is the first episode in what could potentially be a series of episodes if you enjoy it. So it’s gonna depend on what we hear from you, which we would like to hear from you, but this is the first episode in a series called “We Can’t Prove This, But… ” And basically, Mike and I discuss a number of concepts and topics that we don’t have hard scientific evidence for, but that we actually very strongly believe to be true.
0:00:42 Mike Vacanti: Enjoy the episode.
[music]
0:00:49 Mike Vacanti: Hello Jordan.
0:00:52 Jordan Syatt: What’s going on, Michael?
0:00:54 Mike Vacanti: Not much, just had about seven minutes to prepare for this podcast topic that we just settled on and…
0:01:00 Jordan Syatt: Which is great.
0:01:01 Mike Vacanti: Here we are.
0:01:02 Jordan Syatt: Because this podcast, this specific series if it goes well, doesn’t require much preparation, just telling the truth about what we think.
0:01:11 Mike Vacanti: That’s true. That’s true.
0:01:12 Jordan Syatt: Which I’m excited about. But before we get into it, you were just about to tell me about your workout and I cut you off ’cause I was like, “you’ve gotta save this for the podcast,” ’cause I like hearing about your workouts in the podcast.
0:01:21 Mike Vacanti: I appreciate that. It was a grinder, it was a pull day. Week three here of my current program and almost didn’t get through it, but I got through it.
0:01:32 Jordan Syatt: Wait, so what was the workout? What was like the full workout?
0:01:36 Mike Vacanti: Three sets of four pulling moves. So a bent-over row, heavy… Moderately heavy, a hammer curl, heavy, and then higher rep on a seated cable row and wide grip standing EZ bar curl for higher rep, low rest.
0:01:54 Jordan Syatt: And so high intensity on all those moves except for the bent-over row?
0:02:00 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Even the bent-over row I got to RPE9, but it just… Yeah.
0:02:05 Jordan Syatt: You’re cautious for your low back on that one?
0:02:08 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, it’s getting a lot better though.
0:02:10 Jordan Syatt: Deadlifts.
0:02:11 Mike Vacanti: It’s becoming less of a concern. Yeah, that’s definitely got a lot to do with it. And just the bent-over row is one of the most commonly incorrectly performed exercises that goes unnoticed or uncorrected in the gym in my opinion.
0:02:34 Jordan Syatt: Absolutely. Absolutely.
0:02:35 Mike Vacanti: Like 80% of people doing it are basically doing… Was it a Dorian Yates row? Where you’re at a 45 or even a 60-degree angle and you’re barely getting any range on your back, but you’re doing it because you can go heavier weight, protect your low back.
0:02:50 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah. I think most people are doing something that more closely resembles the Yates row. I like a well-performed Yates row. I just think most people they load it up heavy, they’re essentially standing up almost straight up and down, and then they’re basically doing a cross between a shrug and a jump, and they’re jumping and shrugging to get the weight up instead of actually rowing. And so I actually really like a low cable Yates row. That’s my favorite kind of Yates row where it’s like you use the cable instead of the barbell, slightly bent over 45-degree, constant tension, really good isometric hold at the top.
0:03:29 Mike Vacanti: But if you’re doing that, then the cable’s out in front of you a little bit?
0:03:33 Jordan Syatt: Yep. But still…
0:03:34 Mike Vacanti: The base of the cable?
0:03:36 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, exactly.
0:03:37 Mike Vacanti: So the line of pull is still almost perpendicular to your upper body, right? ‘Cause the base of the cable’s a little bit out in front of you rather than straight at your feet.
0:03:49 Jordan Syatt: It’s not straight at your feet. I think it’s probably right in the middle of that. It’s right in the middle of perpendicular and straight at your feet. So somewhere in that middle ground, that angle, which I like a lot. I think most people when they do a Yates… What’s that?
0:04:04 Mike Vacanti: How come?
0:04:05 Jordan Syatt: How come what?
0:04:07 Mike Vacanti: I guess what do you like about it compared to a properly performed bent over row or is it just variation?
0:04:13 Jordan Syatt: Just a different variation. I love a great bent over row. Actually, I prefer a chest-supported T-bar style row just in general. It takes a lot out of the equation. I also like an old school T-bar row, like I really an old school, you put the bar in the corner and you have an old school T-bar row with the neutral grip handle. I really like… I did those a lot growing up. Those are still some of my favorite rows. The main issue with the regular bent-over row is the vast majority of people completely and utterly screw it up, hurt their back, have no idea how to do it. For me personally, I love a bent-over row, but I actually, I feel the Yates row a lot more, way more.
0:04:58 Mike Vacanti: Interesting.
0:04:58 Jordan Syatt: Like I feel the muscles. And I feel specifically my rhomboids, it’s like mid-back, working way better for that. I like the bent-over row just for general overall upper back, but specifically for my mid-back, for my rhomboids, I feel way better with a Yates row.
0:05:19 Mike Vacanti: That makes sense. As someone with four upper body days and only one leg day, I actually appreciate some of the non-upper back engagement of a bent-over row. Right? Like your hamstrings are… It’s isometric but they’re loaded and you gotta keep your abs braced for the entire set, your erectors are firing. Not everyone knows this, but Jordan made fun of my erectors a few weeks back.
[laughter]
0:05:53 Mike Vacanti: Kind-heartedly. And so I like that aspect of it and I historically have just loved the chest-supported row machine or a dumbbell chest-supported row. And I still do. The back pump I get from that is superior to that of the bent-over row. But yeah, when I’ve performed a bent over properly and with intensity and when everything’s dialed in, which reduces a lot of the risk of injury, that has really helped to blow up my back in the past.
0:06:25 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. It makes total sense. I think from a total body tension, overall strength muscle recruitment, I couldn’t really imagine a better exercise, especially for your back than the bent-over row.
0:06:38 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.
0:06:38 Jordan Syatt: It’s Like there’s nothing passive about it, everything is firing, everything’s gotta be tight. The issue is, as always, most people just completely and utterly butcher the technique, whether it’s because maybe they’re in the right position, but they’re using an unbelievable amount of momentum, they get the bar off the ground, and they use literally zero control to bring it back down. Or because they’re actually way more upright and they butcher the range of motion, there are so many ways for people to ruin it versus…
0:07:08 Mike Vacanti: Ruin it around the shoulders too.
0:07:10 Jordan Syatt: Yep, yeah. Exactly.
0:07:11 Mike Vacanti: Just like a lot of shoulder rounding, improper scapular movement.
0:07:16 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, but, yeah, it’s a great exercise, I think I would never start a client with that… If you and I are working out. Yeah, absolutely, it’s realistically, it’s more of an advanced lift, you’ve gotta make sure your client has not only great movement but great body awareness and that they’re strong enough to be able to do it, that they’re aware of the tempo for it like… It’s an advanced lift.
0:07:42 Mike Vacanti: When I was coaching Pat, he said, Pat Stedman, he was like probably six months in, it’s like, “Why don’t we ever do bent-over rows together?” Because he had read that they were a top-five staple, and he’s like, bench press, deadlift, squat, chin up, and he’s like bent-over rows, someone said those were the big five movements, and I explained most of what you just explained as the reasoning why. Reasonably high injury risk, and there are perfectly adequate substitutions for someone who was at his level at that time.
0:08:15 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, that makes total sense. So overall good workout. Good pull. How are the biceps?
0:08:21 Mike Vacanti: Pumped.
0:08:22 Jordan Syatt: They look good, looking big, juicy.
0:08:24 Mike Vacanti: I appreciate that Jordan.
[laughter]
0:08:28 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah. Things are good. How about with you? You got Jiu-Jitsu tonight?
0:08:33 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, my coach he’s moving today, so last week… So I’ve been training six times a week, last week we trained five times ’cause one day he had to go to Florida literally just to pick up his daughter and come back, and then yesterday I went to train, he was like, “Listen, man,” he’s like, “I know last week we only trained five times… ” It’s so funny ’cause he’s an active competitor, so he wants to train every day. So he’s like, “I know last week we only trained five times, I don’t want that to happen again this week, tomorrow I’m moving.” So literally, he’s spending all day moving. And he’s like, “But when I’m done moving, can you come and train with me later tomorrow night?” And I was like, “I can but you know we could take tomorrow off if you’re… ” He’s like, “No, absolutely not.” Says, “We gotta get back in the gym. We gotta train. We gotta train.” I was like, “All right, man, if you wanna spend all day moving and then train me at 6:00 PM, Cool.” So yeah, we’re gonna… I have four podcasts today including this one, and then I got Jiu-Jitsu at 6:00. Rico’s gonna come with me, get some cool shots, and…
0:09:31 Mike Vacanti: Awesome.
0:09:32 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah.
0:09:33 Mike Vacanti: How do those elbows feel?
0:09:35 Jordan Syatt: Way better. Way better, I’ve been doing a…
0:09:37 Mike Vacanti: Wow.
0:09:38 Jordan Syatt: I think there’s two things, the number one is that I think there’s just an adaptation period that was just required in terms of there’s a lot of gripping, just an overwhelming amount of grip work, with Jiu-Jitsu. That I’ve also been using lacrosse ball on my forearms, and just driving the lacrosse ball under my forearm and… Which hurts like just insane amounts of pain, but it’s a good muscular pain, the self-myofascial release type pain that I think has helped relieve a lot of the stress, also I think my bicep tendon was actually overused, which makes sense, you do a lot of pulling, a lot of grip work, then your bicep is gonna be overused, so rolling with that, and then also the combination of just getting better technique and understanding, even though you’re pulling a lot, you can learn how not to use your bicep.
0:10:29 Jordan Syatt: Even if you’re doing a dumbbell row, you’re doing a dumbbell row wrong, you’re gonna use your bicep. If you’re doing a dumbbell row incorrectly, you use your bicep, if you’re doing it properly, you use your back. Because I was still learning Jiu-Jitsu and learning how to grip and how to pull, I was using a lot of biceps to try and keep people close to me, and the better I’ve got at… The better I’ve learned how to use my body weight and use other muscles and other aspects of Jiu-Jitsu rather than rely on that sole weak muscle in my bicep, and it’s I think it’s distributed the stress all over my body which is great.
0:11:00 Mike Vacanti: That’s awesome. I’m glad you’re through that period because you were in pain, you weren’t ever missing sessions as a result of it, but you were… Multiple times I remember you being like, “My elbows are killing me.”
0:11:12 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it was bad, like fully extending my elbow was an issue, and even something where you’re on the ground and you plant your arm to stand up, so I think Turkish get up style thing where you’re on the ground and you plant your arm and you have your arm locked out to stand up and get up, even if you’re doing that in day-to-day life. I’d put it down and I’d feel it, be like, “Oh, jeez.” It almost felt like unstable, like you hurt your knee or something and it’s hard to straighten your knee out, you’re walking you feel it go almost, that’s what my elbow was like for the better part of four weeks, and it’s just starting to feel strong and stable again.
0:11:46 Mike Vacanti: Good. I’m happy to hear that.
0:11:48 Jordan Syatt: Yes, sir. All’s good, I’ve been burping a lot lately, I don’t know why. I’ve been burping and I actually been farting a lot too, just for whatever it’s worth, I don’t wanna give be too much information. I’ve been farting non-stop and it’s…
0:12:01 Mike Vacanti: Have you made any significant changes in your diet?
0:12:05 Jordan Syatt: No. No. Not at all. The burping can be explained by the seltzer, the bubbles.
0:12:11 Mike Vacanti: But you’ve always drank a good amount of seltzer.
0:12:14 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I’ve just… I’m noticing it more. I think I’m noticing ’cause I watch back the clips, so Rico will film me do a podcast and I’ll go over the clips, and I’ll watch myself and I’m like, “Man, I’m burping this entire clip, what’s going on?” And I don’t notice it as I’m just talking with you. But if I watch a clip of me on a podcast, I’m like, “I just burped seven times in that 60-second clip, what is going on?” And then… Yeah, I’ve just also… The farts have been interesting ’cause they haven’t been smelly farts, they’ve been just air like not… Which has been great, I’m super glad about that. But… Yeah, super interesting to note the gaseous response my body has been having lately. [laughter]
0:12:52 Mike Vacanti: Do you feel like you’re eating the fast? And potentially like sucking air down with food?
0:12:58 Jordan Syatt: I literally never thought of that as a possible option, I have no proof or evidence about this going into today’s possibilities, but…
0:13:07 Mike Vacanti: What a transition.
0:13:08 Jordan Syatt: Man, I could be. I think I’m a relatively… To be fair, yeah, I’m a relatively fast eater, very slow drinker. I eat fast, drink slow. I think probably it’d be better to be the opposite to drink fast and eat slow.
0:13:24 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.
0:13:25 Jordan Syatt: It’s realistically it’s probably better to drink more quickly and then eat slowly as opposed to the opposite, but my girlfriend, she drinks like a camel. Not alcohol, just water, she’ll just shog.
[chuckle]
0:13:38 Mike Vacanti: It’s the best.
0:13:39 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it’s insane. I don’t know, I’ve never been good at drinking, even with alcohol, anything. I’m bad at drinking, it’s just… I feel super uncomfortable with a lot of water in my stomach, so I always drink super slow, but I eat fast, so I should work on reversing that.
0:13:57 Mike Vacanti: Interesting, and you eat relatively also transitioning into our talk, you eat a relatively moderate, at least amount of carbs, like you’re not a low carb guy.
0:14:09 Jordan Syatt: No, no, no, not at all. I think I’m relatively like 30-30-30 where it’s pretty moderate and equal portions of protein, carbs, fats.
0:14:18 Mike Vacanti: What I have found is the higher your carb consumption, the… Not only greater urine frequency, but also more water consumption and greater thirst, and I’ve really noticed the opposite of that in myself personally, when I did the handful of 24 to 36-hour fast, because it was so hard for me to drink water during those time periods.
0:14:43 Jordan Syatt: You usually weren’t thirsty?
0:14:46 Mike Vacanti: Wasn’t thirsty at all…
0:14:47 Jordan Syatt: Interesting.
0:14:47 Mike Vacanti: And it makes sense. There are four grams of water per gram of carbohydrate and muscle glycogen and if I’m walking around 300-400 grams of carbs a day, pretty filled out, I’m gonna be drinking a lot of water, but without that place for carb storage… Yeah, thirst was just down, but you’re not a low carb guy so that wouldn’t explain that.
0:15:11 Jordan Syatt: That’s interesting, is that a thing like we’re sucking down air? What is… If you’re eating super fast, is that a real thing?
0:15:19 Mike Vacanti: When I was in my gut health heyday, I was doing a lot of Googling and so real thing is… Are there Google articles about it? You bet your britches there are, but… [laughter] Is it backed by good science? I don’t know. But I remember looking into that and part of it was if you’re eating or drinking… Or if you’re eating too fast and sucking down air with your food that can lead to that.
0:15:47 Jordan Syatt: I guess, zero proof or evidence, but I guess that could make sense sort of in the same way that drinking a carbonated drink could cause you to burp… Could make sense in the same way.
0:15:58 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah. Set the people up for this concept, which you just proposed to me and I’m a big fan of.
0:16:08 Jordan Syatt: So the idea of this potential series, if everyone likes it and enjoys it, would you please let us know, is a series based around presenting topics that through our experience in life and as coaches, we believe to be true but we don’t necessarily have scientific evidence to back it up, and it’s not to say that the evidence doesn’t exist, ’cause realistically, you could probably find evidence supporting literally anything you want. I forget what the quote is, but even the devil could find scripture supporting what he’s doing. But it’s like you could always find something to support whatever it is you’re saying, but all we’re doing is we’re gonna talk about through our experience and through trial and error what we believe to be true regardless of whether or not there’s evidence to back it up. So keeping in mind, and this holds true for literally every podcast Mike and I make, regardless of whether it’s the series or not.
0:17:08 Jordan Syatt: Don’t take what we say at face value, take it for whatever it’s worth, do your own research, dive into the topics, and also really dig into your own experience and common sense. This is… I’m pretty sure Mike, I’ve said this ad nauseam now, but the best experience you can get is through coaching people and through working with people and through learning. So even regardless of what the research says, oftentimes you’ll find through your own experience, sometimes things go against what their science or research says, because practically it just doesn’t apply, it doesn’t make sense in real life. So that’s what we’re gonna talk about, we have a couple of ideas for topics to begin with today, and if you have ideas for topics for us to discuss, please tell us, email us, DM us, whatever. And if you enjoy it, then we can make this a recurring theme.
0:17:56 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. You wanna start?
0:18:00 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, so I will start… Let’s see.
0:18:04 Mike Vacanti: I think that pretty well covers… Laying the background. I would also say not only take our podcast with a grain of salt, hold it lightly and use the ideas, but think about them critically and apply them, but do that with any information you consume, whether it’s a book, or a documentary, or news, or a movie, or even a study. There might be some conclusive nutrition study, but when you dig a little instead of just reading someone’s summary, but if you read a little bit of it and see that it was from 1999 and there were only four participants in the study, and so maybe it doesn’t quite… It’s not the holy grail of X subject, so that’s a good kinda life rule.
0:18:56 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, 100%. Alright, so I’ll start off with I think the easier one to talk about that I thought of. And then maybe as we go, we’ll figure out if we want to go into the more in-depth one, but the first thing that I can’t prove with scientific research, but I very much believe is, I believe that stretching, for the vast majority of people, before you work out is a very good idea. And the reason that I’m bringing this up, it almost… For many people, it might be like, “Well, yeah, obviously, of course.” But there’s a significant number of people, especially the deeper you get into the powerlifting world, Olympic lifting world, weightlifting world, strength and conditioning world, who vehemently oppose the idea of stretching before you work out. And they base it on research that has shown that stretching, especially long-duration, static stretching prior to weight lifting can decrease force and power output.
0:20:01 Jordan Syatt: And for me, I would say the main people who shouldn’t stretch before they work out are high-level Olympic weight lifters, high-level powerlifters before they compete. Not necessarily before they even work out, but just before they compete. Before they work out, I still think they should do it and other people are people who are congenitally lax. People who are born and genetically with very, very loose lax ligaments. They have too much flexibility where they really need to work on their stability. And keep in mind, these are two extreme ends of the population. Most people are not congenitally lax and most people are not elite level Olympic weight lifters or powerlifters competing on a regular basis. The vast majority of us fall somewhere in the middle of that huge spectrum, and stretching before you work out is a really… I can’t believe I even have to make this argument. It’s a really good idea. Stretching before you work out, you should do it.
0:21:05 Mike Vacanti: And the reason… Let’s leave the hypermobile population out of it just for now, but the reason that someone deep in the scientific… The evidence-based community would make that argument is because it could or probably will lead to decreased strength in the workout.
0:21:29 Jordan Syatt: So yes, so…
0:21:30 Mike Vacanti: And probably not a huge amount, but some.
0:21:34 Jordan Syatt: Well, this is the thing, they say there is a significant strength and power reduction when you do long-duration static stretching. So let’s just first and foremost say that’s correct. Yes. There is a significant strength and power reduction if you do long-duration static stretching. First and foremost, we have to look at, who cares? I think this is really the biggest question to ask. ‘Cause if you’re competitive and you’re competing, of course, you don’t want a reduction in your strength and power output. But if you’re just going to the gym to get stronger, feel better, move better, look better, be better, be healthier, why does it matter? Even if there’s a 3% reduction in total force output, how is that going to impact you negatively? And the answer is it won’t. It doesn’t. And not to mention, if you’re doing it consistently… And let’s just say. Let’s just consistently say that you have a 3% reduction, which would be a significant reduction. You have a 3% reduction in strength and power, but consistently… Well, now you’re working consistently from that 3% reduction, so that’s really your baseline.
0:22:44 Jordan Syatt: It’s like you… It’s not like you randomly go in one day and you don’t stretch, and another day you do stretch and you’re all over the place. You’re consistently going in, you’re doing that static stretching, so you’re consistently at that 3% reduction, so essentially that 3% reduction would be your new baseline and you go forward and get stronger from there. And it doesn’t take a genius to understand that doing some stretching beforehand to keep yourself more mobile and get better technique and move better is gonna keep you healthier and safer long-term, so you can get stronger on that base.
0:23:14 Mike Vacanti: You are getting stronger relative to your previous week and previous month, and still adhering to progressive overload, and still deriving the positive emotions associated with progressing towards a goal, but you’re not hitting what is your absolute. You’re improving relative strength. You might not be maximizing absolute strength within a work-out, but who cares?
0:23:44 Jordan Syatt: That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. And…
0:23:47 Mike Vacanti: And what does that person then gain, right? Because let’s say the thing they “lose” is a 3% reduction in absolute strength in a given workout, which you’re not really losing anything. But what could they gain from stretching before work-outs?
0:24:03 Jordan Syatt: That’s right, yep. You have to weigh the cost-benefit. They’ll gain, longevity, health, better mobility, probably better muscle recruitment. There’s just so much more positive than negative as a result of that, and I think when you’re constantly always chasing maximal strength, maximal strength, maximal strength, do whatever you can to lift as heavy as you possibly can, it’s a dangerous route to go down. ‘Cause if basically, if everything you’re doing is geared towards no matter what your goal here is to lift as heavy as you can. It’s like, well then why not do anything and everything else to get to that point. It’s like there’s so many other things that we can bring into the discussion. Let’s just talk about one. It’s not even that bad. But snorting ammonia, right? If you’ve ever seen a weightlifter or a powerlifter before they lift, you’ll oftentimes see them sniffing something. And they’ll be turning their head away, and they’re shaking their head, and they’re clearly in pain, and they’re sniffing something. It’s usually ammonia.
0:25:02 Jordan Syatt: And it’s to help them, for whatever reason, to help them get so amped up that they lift more weight as a result of oftentimes an adrenaline rush, blah, blah, blah. It’s like if your goal is purely to lift as heavy a weight as possible at the expense of health and at the expense of mobility and flexibility, and at the expense of everything that ideally you’re working towards in your fitness, then I think you have a skewed relationship with fitness and health and strength.
0:25:31 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And like you said, there’s a lot of other things, ammonia just being one of them. If that’s your priority one in life and you’re not stretching to get the extra couple percent, what else are you… What other steps are you going to take? Are you gonna sleep the optimal amount to get stronger over time? ‘Cause that’s probably a lot of sleep.
0:25:51 Jordan Syatt: Yep.
0:25:51 Mike Vacanti: And are you gonna set your calories in a place where regardless of body composition they are… Their goal is to get you as strong as you possibly can get, probably not. You probably don’t want to gain the amount of body fat that would be a by-product of that intake.
0:26:09 Jordan Syatt: And then you could even go to you don’t wanna do any form of excess cardio. You don’t wanna do any aerobic exercise because this is an [chuckle] anaerobic activity. And the more aerobic exercise you do, then the less anaerobic you’ll be. There’s just a whole lot of nonsense you can fall into with this, right?
0:26:27 Mike Vacanti: And for the people who are like, “No, I do wanna do that. I wanna do that first thing you mentioned. I wanna do the ammonia. I wanna not stretch. I wanna do all of them.” They’re gonna fall into the category of elite powerlifter.
0:26:36 Jordan Syatt: That’s exactly right.
0:26:37 Mike Vacanti: ‘Cause what you’re describing is… [chuckle] They’re not gonna walk anywhere, they’re gonna get…
0:26:40 Jordan Syatt: They’re gonna get as big as possible, they’re gonna get as strong as possible, they’re gonna do zero stretching. And like most elite powerlifters, they’re gonna tear a hamstring, they’re gonna burn out, they’re gonna hurt their back. You don’t see many elite powerlifters after age 30, and there’s a reason for that. There’s a reason why Louis Simmons is an anomaly and like… Who’s also will be the first to tell you he’s in chronic pain forever. He’s torn both of his biceps off, he’s broken his back twice, he has no knee caps, he has barely any shoulder mobility, and he loves it. And that’s his life and he wouldn’t trade it for the world.
0:27:15 Jordan Syatt: But it’s like most people aren’t willing to live a life like that, which is why… I know we went down a really slippery slope with all this going from, “Hey, stretching,” All the way down to becoming an elite powerlifter, but it’s true. It’s important to clarify, and the reality is, if you’re a coach who isn’t gonna have your client stretch because you read a research article that it says that it slightly reduces force or power output, then you’re already going down that slippery slope. You’re already going down… You’re missing the forest for the trees. It’s like, you damn well better make sure your clients are doing some stretching before they work out. God forbid their power output is down by 3% because you’re gonna keep them healthier and better and moving better and feeling better in the long run.
0:28:00 Mike Vacanti: Do you wanna give just a little bit of maybe practical guidance around… Are there a handful of stretches that you think make the most sense? How much time are you going to spend stretching in total before a workout and maybe how long per hold?
0:28:16 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I think… So it’s important to make the distinction between static stretching and dynamic stretching. So static stretching is where you hold one stretch for a sustained duration, and this is where most of the researches and people say like, “Well, dynamic stretching is fine, but not static stretching.” I think they’re actually both really important. If you’re gonna hold a static stretch for five minutes straight, I think that’s a little bit excessive. You don’t need to do a hip flexor static stretch for five minutes straight. But if you’re gonna do any static stretching, whether it’s a hip flexor stretch or an adductor stretch or any stretch, anywhere between 20-30 seconds is plenty. It’s about a sufficient amount of time where also, you’re not going to notice a significant, if any decreased output in force or power. The studies showing that you see that decrease in force and power often come with 60 seconds plus.
0:29:10 Jordan Syatt: So 20-30 seconds, you’re still in a totally fine range. So I think stretching your calves, stretching your hip flexors, stretching your hamstrings, those are all like… Stretching your adductors, all really important, stretching your pecs, stretching your traps, just all really quick. And these are things you can do on your off days too, and probably better to do on a day-to-day basis as opposed to only doing them on the days you lift, but those are important to stretch and doing those more statically. And then dynamic stretching, I think, for more of a full-body approach, whether it’s leg swings. ‘Cause with leg swings, you get the adductor, you get the hamstring, you get the hip flexor, you get all of that at once. So I would sort of talk about it when you talk about isolation lifts, bicep curls, hamstring curls. These are things that you don’t necessarily emphasize as much as the full-body compound lifts. Sort of the same thing with stretching, you do the isometric or you do the static stretching for the individual muscle groups that are… Make up a small portion of your warm-up. And then the more compound stretches, dynamic stretches make up the majority of your warm-up, which are leg swings and bear crawls and other movements that get your body moving, that stretch what you need to stretch without necessarily sitting down for five minutes straight.
0:30:25 Mike Vacanti: Great. I like that. While you were describing that, I… One of my biggest pet peeves is when people talk about their dreams, because it’s like, “Alright, this doesn’t make sense to anyone else. [chuckle] Don’t share your dream with me. It’s just… It’s kind of weird.” I had a dream last night [chuckle] where I was doing a pike seated hamstring stretch, and I was reaching over my feet.
0:30:49 Jordan Syatt: Geez.
0:30:50 Mike Vacanti: And then I was reaching back up my Achilles.
0:30:53 Jordan Syatt: Oh my God.
0:30:54 Mike Vacanti: And back up my calves. And I just remember being like, “I have the most flexible hamstrings in the world.” [chuckle] I was laying flat across my quads. I was like, “This is such a good feeling.” How weird is that?
0:31:04 Jordan Syatt: That’s so funny that you would have that dream because I know any chance you get, you’re on your foam roller and you’re doing thoracic rotations. I know you work on your mobility a lot and you’re constantly focused on it, so the fact that you have that dream actually makes a lot of sense to me, and I think it’s sort of funny. [chuckle]
0:31:21 Mike Vacanti: But you… And even just the fact that you thought of that as one of your ideas for today.
0:31:27 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:31:29 Mike Vacanti: Weird. Weird. Now everyone’s like, “I didn’t wanna hear your dream” [chuckle] Sweet, that was a great one.
0:31:36 Jordan Syatt: You wanna go to the next topic?
0:31:37 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah. So this is actually… Should we talk about carb to fat ratio?
0:31:45 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I love hearing you talk about this stuff, so I think you should.
0:31:48 Mike Vacanti: Okay. So how do I phrase this? I guess [chuckle] there… I actually think there is science to support what I’m about to say, which kinda goes back to what you’ve said in the beginning, but… It’s popular right now in the evidence-based community to give little weight to the effect of carbohydrate to fat ratio in the diet, and I guess we’ll put the caveat that we’re not going to zero fat or we’re not going to zero carb. I believe without the ability to truly prove it, although maybe I could if I thought about it long enough. But right now we’ll just say, I believe that when the goal is building muscle, a high carbohydrate, a moderate to high protein, high carbohydrate, low dietary fat intake will lead to superior results, will lead to less fat gained and will lead to… I don’t know if I wanna make the claim that you’ll build more muscle, but will lead to less body fat gained during the course of a bulk.
0:33:12 Jordan Syatt: So while you’re in a caloric surplus, keeping a moderate to high protein, high carb, lower fat diet while building the same amount of muscle and the same caloric surplus, you will gain less fat.
0:33:28 Mike Vacanti: Correct. And potentially build more muscle. But with calories equal, I don’t see how that would be possible and protein, the same. But yeah, that’s…
0:33:43 Jordan Syatt: So why is that? Why calories staying equal, proteins staying equal, but carb fat ratio changing, why would one lead to more fat gain than another?
0:34:00 Mike Vacanti: Because it’s extremely hard for the human body to store carbohydrates as body fat. The metabolic pathway to store carb intake as body fat, which is called de novo lipogenesis requires… And there is research around this that I don’t know off the top of my head. I did at one point. Requires, and this varies from individual to individual, but a significant amount of carb intake before those carbohydrates begin to be stored as body fat rather than stored as glycogen in the muscles primarily, but brain and blood and etcetera. Yeah, and I think the number was like… These were trained men, if I remember right, but it was 600-700 grams of carbs per day for at least three days in a row before there was any… Before any of those carbs began to be stored as body fat. And in practice, it’s annoying. [chuckle] For example, a 180-pound individual eating 180 grams of protein, 500 grams of carbs, and if you wanna get really extreme, 45 grams of fat.
0:35:30 Jordan Syatt: Which would be an insane diet to eat.
0:35:33 Mike Vacanti: Ratio.
0:35:33 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, that’s crazy.
0:35:36 Mike Vacanti: When I… In the summer of 2016, I kept fats around 60 grams and my carbs got to about 550. Actually, when I started increasing carbs from 450 up to 550, I also brought fats up a little bit just because you’re so restricted in food choices and protein choices when you’re on such a low-fat diet, with fat as such a low percentage of overall calories that I think I ended up bringing fats up to 60 grams on training days, if not 65 grams. But yeah, based on what I know about de novo lipogenesis and based on n equals one, and me having done many bulks in my life where I’m a little bit loosey-goosey on fat intake and when I’m more dialed in, as well as through… You can’t really use clients as “evidence” because…
0:36:37 Jordan Syatt: Just anecdotal experience for sure.
0:36:39 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah, but I almost… Yeah, I guess it’s anecdotal. It feels more than anecdotal, but less than obviously a study, right?
0:36:47 Jordan Syatt: A peer-reviewed research. Yeah.
0:36:49 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. No one’s following them around, making sure that their adherence is what they say it is, etcetera. But the clients who… I’ve had many, many, very type-A clients who I believe that they were eating what they were tracking, and those saw better results than those who I would give a 100 grams of fat or a 120 grams of fat with lower carb and the same calorie intake.
0:37:17 Jordan Syatt: It makes a lot of sense, especially from the… If we’re looking at this from more of the physiological scientific perspective, higher carb, moderate protein, minimal fat would be optimal from the perspective of in a caloric surplus, you would store less fat if you’re eating less fat. That makes total sense. I think the important part of the discussion where I think I would… I can sort of imagine people being confused is, number one, we have to remember, this is taking place in a caloric surplus. This is not a caloric deficit.
0:37:52 Mike Vacanti: Correct.
0:37:52 Jordan Syatt: And that’s a massively critical, important component of this discussion, because a lot of, especially as you said earlier, you’re in the science-based community, it’s a very commonplace nowadays to say carbs and fat don’t matter, but they forget that… Well, number one, they do matter. Of course, they matter. Carbs and fat absolutely matter. But when we’re talking about fat loss, as long as your calories and protein are in check, carb-to-fat ratio isn’t nearly as important as calories and protein. When you’re in a surplus and you’re being mindful of how much body fat you are going to gain because that’s part of being in a surplus, body fat will come on if you’re trying to optimize that, minimizing total fat intake, not eliminating it, but minimizing it relative to carb intake, will help optimize muscle growth to fat gain. It just… It makes sense, and whether there’s research or not, I haven’t looked into it, but that makes sense just from what I know about De novo lipogenesis and just physiology in general.
0:38:57 Jordan Syatt: I think also the part we have to talk about now is… Sort of the same discussion we had about being an elite powerlifter, being an elite weightlifter. Now we can bring it over to are you a bodybuilder? Are you a physique competitor? How much do you really care about that extra fat gain? The restriction you’ll need in order to achieve this level of leanness. Are you willing to do that? And this is where I think you and I have a good balance. Me personally, I don’t give a fuck. I have a very lackadaisical approach to nutrition, just based on what I’ve learned over the years and where I’m comfortable at with my body. I just don’t care. It’s just, for me that’s… I would way rather have a slightly higher body fat percentage than really try and focus on keeping my fat levels extra-low, and I think that’s where a lot of people who are just in fitness to feel and move better and they don’t wanna be too meticulous with it, maybe they’re not more type A, they’re like… That’s where they fall. Whereas other people, they’re a little bit more type A, they like to have their numbers in check, they do wanna be very cautious of exactly how much fat they’re adding. Is approach really might make a lot of sense.
0:40:11 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. For those individuals, I agree. Look, I talked about my belief or my intuition on this. There’s a reason why I’m re-comping right now, even though I wanna build muscle. There’s a reason why I’m not in a surplus doing what I just outlined.
0:40:31 Jordan Syatt: Why?
0:40:31 Mike Vacanti: And that… Because it’s wholly un-enjoyable.
0:40:35 Jordan Syatt: Okay.
[laughter]
0:40:39 Mike Vacanti: Your food choices are severely limited. Think about what you need to eat to get that many carbs while keeping fats that low. There aren’t that many food options. Now, think about the foods that you can’t eat because they are too high in fat. Basically any fatty protein is off the table…
0:41:01 Jordan Syatt: Salmon, yeah.
0:41:01 Mike Vacanti: Which means you’re getting… Yeah, yeah. And I would carb cycle even in a surplus. So on a rest day, I’m getting 100 or 110 or 120 grams of fat with carbs lower, and estimating somewhere around maintenance calories, maybe slightly above. But… Yeah, just because it’s true doesn’t mean it’s a recommendation and it’s not… That is one of the big downsides, is not only the reduction in food choices which makes it un-enjoyable, which for most people is gonna lead to decreased adherence. I think there’s actually some digestive downside, especially as you get into higher, real high carb numbers. I don’t think I ever got to 700 grams of carbs, but you’re just not getting those… Your sugar intake is going to increase to the point where there are other ill effects maybe around energy levels throughout the day. Yeah, you can’t “eat clean” or even eat 90 or 80% micronutrient dense foods, micronutrient dense foods and do that. You’re just going to be eating cereal and oatmeal…
0:42:21 Jordan Syatt: Sugar.
0:42:22 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.
0:42:22 Jordan Syatt: Jelly. [laughter]
0:42:22 Mike Vacanti: Lot of jelly. Too much jam.
0:42:28 Jordan Syatt: And also, the hormonal potential issues, especially with I see women who try and go way too low fat. It’s not a good idea. And men, too.
0:42:38 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah, and that is when you’re going very low fat, you wanna make sure you’re getting enough essential fatty acids which are necessary for life. But if you’re only having, let’s call it 0.25 to 0.3 grams of fat per pound of bodyweight, then you need to be supplementing with fish oil. You need to make sure that you’re getting enough essential fats. And even still you might experience various ill effects like… Gut health is another one. Maybe you can’t make foods fit in that make you feel good digestively. Maybe eating 500 grams of carbs a day is gonna make you feel awful digestively, even if you’re picking great foods. Those are all reasons why not to do this, but yeah, you reminded me of those King Kullen muffins that have 76 grams of carbs and 1.5 or two grams of fat per muffin that are so tasty, and I was eating three… Two or three of those a day.
0:43:52 Jordan Syatt: I’ve never seen someone get so excited about a muffin, and so this is near the time where Mike and I really started to hang out, get to know each other in person. I had just taken over for coaching Gary, we were living together, and we would go shopping at the grocery store. And Mike has so much knowledge around nutrition and food. He’d pick up all the packages, look at all the labels, read everything. And we went by this table full of muffins and pastries, and I’ll never forget when he read the label and saw how low fat these muffins were. He’s like, “These corn muffins. There’s like zero fat in these. These are crazy.” And they’re packages of four muffins each, and there were a couple occasions where you ate all four in a day. And I was like, oh my Lord, this is crazy. And that was the biggest I’ve ever seen you and lean. Big and lean. I remember you were a behemoth and lean.
0:44:54 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I was in the 190s and lean come that fall.
0:44:58 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, and I was just blown away at the enthusiasm for those muffins, and also that you can just eat that much and stay that lean. But I think what’s important, and we’ve already spoken about it, I think you made the critical mention and clarification of just because we believe this to be true does not qualify this as a recommendation. It’s like the steps that most people would need to take in order to take this to its extreme is not okay, and it’s not recommended, it’s just sort of fun to talk about this stuff, and I think so much of the fitness information now is always like, well, alright, well, what does the research say? Let’s look at the research paper. It’s like yeah, it’s fun to look at the research, but what if we just jam on just experience and what we know and what we think is true based on what we’ve experienced and practiced. I was like so that’s what I like about this.
0:45:53 Mike Vacanti: Absolutely, especially in areas where the research might not be… Let’s say definitive or even near definitive. Yeah, I’ve gotten a hard time for making statements that sometimes intuition is greater than science.
0:46:14 Jordan Syatt: Absolutely.
0:46:16 Mike Vacanti: Knowing things through a different means than the scientific method.
0:46:23 Jordan Syatt: Not to mention, they’re not gonna have research studies that prove literally everything. I think people don’t understand how research is done sometimes. Do you have a research article to support that? It’s like do you really think that they have a study funded specifically looking at people who’ve been training for a minimum of five years and have X amount of lean mass and you can look at the difference in fat storage. Who do you think is gonna fund that study? That’s a tremendous amount of time, tremendous amount of money. It’s like most of the study is done are on people who need to really improve their health, who are significantly overweight, very high body fat, maybe they already have some type of illness or they are on the verge of getting one. It’s like, how do we help these people live longer and healthier? That’s what the vast majority of studies are for. I’m pretty sure Bradshaw and field studies on powerlifting versus bodybuilding are very recent.
0:47:25 Jordan Syatt: And bodybuilders and powerlifters have known for years and decades and decades what type of lifting is better for building muscle, what type of lifting is better for building strength, we’ve known that intuitively, there hasn’t been these bodybuilding versus powerlifting studies until very recently, until we’ve been able to fund them, and even then, there’s clear biases involved in these studies. It’s like you have to understand yes, peer-review research is a tremendous resource, but another tremendous resource is practical experience and just a knowledge and trial and error, and we can’t take one and exclude the other.
0:48:00 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, very well said. Use both.
0:48:03 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, exactly, and also just say, for whatever it’s worth on the topic of the high-carb low-fat, I think it’s really, really important especially more in a calorie deficit than a calorie surplus, but really making sure people are getting high-quality fats in their diets. This is something… Especially and I know we’ve both worked with many women who’ve struggled with it, literally the only time in my life that I’ve struggled with erections is when I had a very low-fat diet, the only time in my life was when I was experimenting with a lower fat diet and it was also in a calorie deficit, but calorie deficit, low-fat diet. That was the only time in my life when I struggled with that. And as soon as I brought my fats up, I was like bing! It was great, is phenomenal. There’s… And just not to mention mood is better, energy is better. So that’s for me, I tend to follow more of that 30-30-30-ish, very moderate, try and get equal amounts of everything just ’cause it’s easy for me, and I feel best there, and this is really where it comes down to finding what works best for you and helping your clients find what works best for them.
0:49:16 Mike Vacanti: The last thing I’ll throw in there is make sure training style is brought into account and really rep range and exercise volume, because I have found that quality of workouts when doing higher volume and doing more work in the six to 15 rep range, carbs are important for training performance.
0:49:43 Jordan Syatt: Absolutely. Yeah, I don’t have the research next to me, but there’s an overwhelming amount of research about the importance of carbohydrate intake with higher rep range and more endurance style training period. It’s like you are gonna be very hard put to find a high-level athlete who excludes carbs from their diet, it’s just…
0:50:04 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yep.
0:50:06 Jordan Syatt: Most fats you can get without really trying, like tagalong fats as long as you’re eating an overall “healthy nutrient-rich diet.” Fats come along for the ride. If you’re deliberately eliminating carbs, you’re gonna have a very difficult time with energy and performance.
0:50:26 Mike Vacanti: You wanna hit your second one?
0:50:26 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, so the second one, and this one I think is gonna be interesting ’cause I think people will be surprised to hear me say this. I have no evidence by my side… I will say there is evidence to support this but no evidence by my side to support this, but I very much believe that for many people, not all people, but for many people making a singular cold turkey big change in their life. Just one day deciding, “I will make this change. Period, end of story,” is very, very effective and oftentimes, more effective than going one minuscule minute, incy-wincy teeny-tiny change at a time, and even though there’s a huge push for these small, small changes, one thing at a time, I think we are radically overlooking the benefit of making a singular decision to make a change for your life, and again, there are many factors at play here, and it does vary per individual, but I think the fitness industry runs on extremes and is either good or bad, right or wrong, healthy or unhealthy.
0:51:47 Jordan Syatt: And in recent years we’ve been pushed to believe that… A cold-turkey change is a bad change and that is just not true, I’ve seen time and time again cold turkey changes working tremendously well and this is one of the coolest things I’ve noticed from doing the podcast with my inner circle members, people have lost 50 pounds, 80 pounds, 100 pounds, 150 pounds I always ask them what happened and they are like, “One day I made a change,” and maybe it came from fear of something happening, maybe it came from a big event happening in their life that motivated them to finally do it but the number of people who say, one day something happened it blows me away that people think that making small changes is the only way when so many success stories begin with one day and making the change and that’s it.
0:52:43 Mike Vacanti: I love it, I love that concept, I agree with your analysis and intuition on it. I think what might be most interesting about that is how, how did they or why was that the day both whether it’s an external event like a simple example would be a 54-year-old who has a heart attack and survives and then the next day cares about fitness for the rest of their life so there are examples where an external event prompts someone whether it’s fear-based and you know that kinda that push or whether it’s pull-based aspirational toward something, I’m also curious and we’re both just speculating but how that decision can be made in the absence of a significant external event.
0:53:48 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, I know for me personally when I have conducted these interviews with people the one recurring theme that is most common is fear. Fear seems to be the one recurring event and one recurring characteristic of a change in someone’s mindset that gets them to say, “I am done, I’m done with this, no more will I do this.” And I’ve seen this over, and over, and over, and over again and oftentimes it’s fear of dying, fear of embarrassment, fear of children having a bad representation of what they should be doing, children having a bad view of their parents, whatever it is, oftentimes has to do with children and has to do with… Or a spouse and a fear of not being able to live up to what they would like to be that is often… And I think it’s something that builds, and it builds, and it builds, and over time it will accumulate to a tipping point and oftentimes I think we hear drug addicts talk about this like, “I had to hit rock bottom before I finally made the change,” or it’s like they might have known it was an issue but any number of reasons they were at to keep justifying, keep justifying, keep justifying until they hit rock bottom, they hit a point where they’re like, no more.
0:55:20 Jordan Syatt: And there’s a significant amount of research whether it’s in alcoholism or with weight loss or whatever it is that some people they get to a point where it’s just like, no more. Yeah, but with my binge-eating, I’ve never really even thought about it before in regard to that but literally I binge ate consistently, week after week, after week for years, and years, and years until one day I looked in the mirror I said, I’m done, I’m not doing it anymore and that was it. That was literally it, that was the last time I binged, a decade ago. It’s like not everyone can do that and I think approaching that style with everyone is a very bad idea because some people don’t respond well to it but to say that approach is completely and utterly useless and doesn’t work is equally as ignorant as saying, you should always do small and steady approaches, they both work depending on who you’re with.
0:56:19 Mike Vacanti: I’m on board, I’m on board big time. I feel like that one could be a whole podcast in itself ’cause I have so many thoughts I don’t even know which direction to go down right now with this.
0:56:30 Jordan Syatt: Just pick one and go. [chuckle]
0:56:37 Mike Vacanti: When someone makes that decision, I think it’s important to remember that you might screw up. Like you might make the decision that I will never do X or I will do X going forward and three months in, six months in who knows? You do the thing and that doesn’t mean that you revert back to who you are previously or put you back into the previous state you were in because you still already made the decision but it’s like a… If we can give countless fitness parallels here when you have a bad day you get right back on the next day. I think that’s important to remember. It’s a cool concept, I fully believe it. I think I actually made content about this that’s like rushing back six years ago.
0:57:35 Jordan Syatt: Oh, really?
0:57:36 Mike Vacanti: Mm-hmm.
0:57:37 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I was thinking about… For example for me when I stopped binge eating, what happened? Well, my why was like, I was… There was fear but I was tired, I was tired of hiding it, I was tired of dealing with it, I was tired of all the stress and anxiety that came with it and the how was start eating breakfast. So it’s an interesting mix of going cold turkey, just all of a sudden stopping and also making one change. So it’s like we hear, it’s like make small progressive changes over time but maybe just one of those changes will be enough for the entire thing to stop altogether. So it’s an interesting combo. I think what I’ve found is, oftentimes we get people who are… They struggle with motivation, they struggle with taking action.
0:58:34 Jordan Syatt: With those people, I think they tend to be better with making small changes progressively over time. If someone is very motivated, like, “I’m ready to do this,” and you give them small, teeny tiny changes, they’re more likely to fall off, because they’re ready to go and they’re not feeling challenged enough, they’re not feeling like you’re pushing them enough, and you have to sort of meet them where they’re at in an intelligent way to get them to, “Okay, well, cool, I’m giving it my all, I’m pushing.” But it’s your job as a coach to meet them where they are and to not only give them small incy, “Okay, so today, this week, you’re only going to make sure you drink four glasses of water and then next week we’re gonna make sure you drink eight glasses of water, and then next week, we’re gonna make sure that you make your bed and drink the water, and the week after that we’re gonna make sure that you make your bed, drink your water and floss your teeth.” And then they’re like, “Well, hold on, I just wanna go to the gym and lift.” It’s like, “Well, hold on, the Precision Nutrition manual says that I have to go very slowly with this.”
0:59:33 Jordan Syatt: It’s like you have to play it by ear with each client, and generally, I found the people who really struggle with motivation, like really, really struggle, starting with something small, like walking five minutes a day might be a great bet. For someone who’s ready to go all-in, you might be better to push them a little bit and get them to go in and get a taste of it, to start seeing the results more quickly, and oftentimes they’ll respond better to that.
0:59:57 Mike Vacanti: I like the differentiation between the two types because one strategy can work better for some, the other strategy can work better for others, and it depends what you are, what habit or what behavior, what set of behaviors you’re trying to either incorporate or eliminate. Right? I’m not a doctor, I’m not a specialist in addiction, I don’t know about cigarettes, for example, but it seems like based on the person, both strategies have merit. I know something I’ve talked about publicly going years back, and something that I’m in a good place with now, but was watching porn. And I know a lot of guys really… Especially in the internet epidemic and teenagers these days, it’s something that a lot of guys, like dudes are masturbating multiple times a day to porn, sinking hours into that every day. And that’s something that I think the swift cut off, “I’m done,” decision has a lot of merit and can be super effective there if that’s something someone wanted to do. Yeah, there’s, its applicability is, I think, quite vast, and I think when people get sucked into the tiny, small habitual change week by week by week, they’re not seeing the opportunity that exists for themself by taking this route that you’re presenting.
1:01:28 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I was also thinking, when you take those small changes, which do work for some people, for other people, those small incremental changes, they allow consistent re-exposure to the thing that you’re trying to give up altogether. Right?
1:01:44 Mike Vacanti: Yep.
1:01:44 Jordan Syatt: So I was thinking of that in regard to when you were talking about porn, I was like, “Man, if you try and do that incrementally, you’re gonna be consistently re-exposed to this over and over and over again, and it’s like you’re getting a new high every single time.” Whereas if you just decide, “No, I’m done and you are… I’m not re-exposed to that high.” I would imagine it’d be like… To my knowledge, I’m pretty sure when someone is an alcoholic and they’re trying to give up smoking or give up drinking alcohol, they don’t say, “Okay, well, alright, we’re just gonna slightly reduce your alcohol intake.” They say, “We’re taking you off alcohol.” It’s like…
1:02:19 Mike Vacanti: I think there are situations where it depends on where the person’s at, because…
1:02:24 Jordan Syatt: Interesting. Got it.
1:02:24 Mike Vacanti: Because I think there can be… I think in severe alcoholism, cold turkey can lead to death in some situations. There’s that level of physical dependency…
1:02:33 Jordan Syatt: Interesting, like withdrawal. Got it. Got it. Yeah.
1:02:36 Mike Vacanti: I could be wrong, but your point still stands like the exposure to it in various things.
1:02:42 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, and I could be very well wrong here, I’m not an alcohol cessation expert or a smoking cessation expert. I do… It’s actually, I think it’s one of the most genius things about those nicotine patches, where it’s like you can get the physiological need for nicotine if you’re trying to come out smoking without actually smoking, without being re-exposed to the habit of lighting it, of buying it, of taking it out of the box, lighting it, putting in your mouth, smoking it, getting the exposure to the smoke, whatever it is, it’s like you can get the nicotine without actually re-enforcing the habit of smoking. I think that’s probably one of the most genius aspects of that, of the nicotine patch…
1:03:29 Mike Vacanti: It’s a new habit. It’s not…
1:03:31 Jordan Syatt: Yeah it’s a brand new habit.
1:03:33 Mike Vacanti: You’re not exp… Yeah. Yup. Environment is the last thing I wanna say on this, it can be such a positive catalyst for change, because we know how reinforcing environment is, who you’re spending time with, where you are, what you’re doing, what your day-to-day routine looks like, if you have the opportunity to be in a new environment, the opportunity to change is so much. You have a higher likelihood of success, and just think if you live in a certain city and you’re going out multiple times a week with the same group of friends, and those are your friends who live in that place and you go outside and light up multiple times every single night, but when you move cities and you’re not around those same people and have the opportunity to spend time with different people, you also have a better chance at making a change.
1:04:29 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I agree completely. And for whatever it’s worth, sometimes, most of the time, all of the time, you only have the opportunity when you make it. Right? It’s like you’re the one who makes your opportunity. And this is something… This is especially important with environment, right? Where it’s like, “Well, I can’t just not hang out with these people,” it’s like, “Well, you can.” It sucks, it’s hard, distancing yourself from people you’ve been around or whatever it is, but sometimes moving cities might literally be what you need to do.
1:05:06 Mike Vacanti: It might be necessary. Because the other option is everyone in the group’s mindset changes and maybe there’s situations where you have… It’s harder to change a whole group, but maybe you got a friend and both you and your friend have some kind of a bad habit, but you both want to aspire towards something better, and so you work together to do that. I think that’s few and far between, and you’re super lucky if you have someone like that, specifically because you can’t make another person want something, you would both have to want that outcome. But what you said… I was wrong when I said the opportunity to move. We all have the opportunity to move. It’s like making the decision to change your environment.
1:05:49 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah. So this was good, man.
1:05:53 Mike Vacanti: Fun episode. Fun episode. I enjoyed this, I hope everyone listening enjoyed this. If you like the episode, we would very much appreciate if you left a review, one star, if you hated it, five stars if you enjoyed it. And thank you very much for listening.
1:06:07 Jordan Syatt: Have a good day.
