00:11 Michael: Hello, Jordan.


00:12 Jordan: What’s going on, Michael?


00:15 Michael: Not much, man.


00:16 Jordan: How are you feeling? You get some vitamin D today?


00:17 Michael: I did get some Vitamin D today. I am in an optimal mood right now.


00:23 Jordan: What’s your day been like?


00:25 Michael: Set my alarm. I hadn’t set an alarm in a while, I just kind of been waking up when I wake up, but had some things, so I wanted to get my emails done and get a workout in so I could get back in time for a call.


00:38 Jordan: What time did your alarm go off?


00:40 Michael: 7 o’clock.


00:42 Jordan: Okay.


00:42 Michael: Nothing mind-blowing.


00:44 Jordan: Half-hour earlier than mine went off.


00:47 Michael: Yeah, well…


00:48 Jordan: So you win that one.




00:52 Michael: As Mr. Vaynerchuk would say, “It’s not what time you wake up, it’s what you do when you’re awake.”


00:56 Jordan: Yeah, but you’ve been super-productive today, right?


01:00 Michael: Yeah. So I had about an hour and a half outside.


01:02 Jordan: Just refilling those vitamin D stores.


01:04 Michael: Yeah, man. It’s crazy… So I’m down in Florida, kind of went from Minnesota to New York and down here, and I’m intending on spending at least a few months down here, God-willing, but it’s insane how much environment plays a role in routine, productivity, how one feels and… Yeah, I’ve spoken to you about this many times, I just love it down here, but the weather, the atmosphere…


01:37 Jordan: The gym…


01:38 Michael: The gym, I got a little rental place here, and so it’s going great.


01:43 Jordan: That’s awesome. Hopefully, I’ll be there joining you relatively soon.


01:47 Michael: I would love that.


01:49 Jordan: Very excited about that.


01:50 Michael: Post-competition.


01:52 Jordan: Yeah, yeah. Well, good, man. So you’ve been productive, feeling good. How was your workout today?


01:58 Michael: It was a solid workout, little back day, pulling mostly.


02:03 Jordan: Nice.


02:04 Michael: Yeah.


02:04 Jordan: And apparently someone at the gym tried getting maybe a coach there yesterday, right?


02:10 Michael: Oh, that was funny. Yeah. Man. So this guy, who’s probably… He has the amount of lean mass as two normal, maybe three normal human beings, all combined into one.


02:25 Jordan: Like a rhinoceros, just like a tremendous amount of muscle.


02:30 Michael: Like forearms the sides of quads, with just tremendous vascularity. He was… Yes, he wanted me to… He overheard me saying something to a different sales guy, as I was signing up for the gym, and basically was pitching me on the idea of coaching there, and telling me how many of the people he’s hired have gone on to be successful coaches. And I got a mask on, I’m just kind of like smile and nodding, like it was a 30-second pitch. Half my pre-workouts down, I’m like, I’m ready to train. I’m hitting chest. I’m ready to go. I’ve signed up. I’ve swiped the credit card. And this is like an 11-minute pitch, maybe not that long, but it genuinely felt that long.


03:10 Jordan: Felt like it.


03:10 Michael: Yeah.


03:11 Jordan: With that beta-alanine running through your veins.


03:13 Michael: Yeah, I’m getting tingly, it’s like… And this guy’s… It’s the hour session, right? So we can do your body fat, we can do this, we can do that, but he had overheard me saying them in the industry, so instead, he said, I can use that hour to like, I don’t know, talk to him about becoming a trainer there. And this guy, who is jacked… I honestly thought about using the hour to talk to him about his special supplement, it’s like I like what he’s doing. This guy was a freak of… It’s like, are you… It’s like the Olympia 2022, is that in your game plan? But…


03:47 Jordan: Geez.


03:49 Michael: Yeah, that was very funny, and it just reminded me of the side of the… He was a nice guy, all in all. He had his sales routine kinda down, but it reminded me of what I have never liked about the industry, which is the aggressive direct selling.


04:06 Jordan: Yeah, just like the overly-pushy, like not even really listening to what you have to say. It’s like, let me just get this whole sales pitch out before you even say a word, and then we’ll go from there, and then whatever you say, I’m still gonna try and push further.




04:19 Michael: Exactly, and it’s such a… Because I, historically, haven’t done sales calls with online coaching clients, you in the past, have done many, and your approach, my understanding is that it’s so simple, in you basically open up the floor for the person to talk…


04:39 Jordan: Correct.


04:39 Michael: And for the majority of the time, you’re listening and you’re asking good questions. You’re not telling them what your program is or telling them what you can do for them or jamming that down their throat. You’re letting them talk. And so much of it, and so much of what I have historically not liked… And really it’s just usually when signing up for a new gym, that like 15 minutes in the room there with the salesperson at gym, but just so like ESTJ, as we would say from a Myers-Briggs perspective, just in your face, down your throat, talking.


05:14 Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny, in terms of the sales calls, for me, it’s just always been very intuitive. I’ve just understood, but the best sales calls are always the one where you speak the least, it’s just like you let the other person talk the most, ’cause the reality is I think most people approach a sales call from the perspective of let me tell you about my program as quickly as possible. It’s like they approach it from the perspective of, I’m gonna tell you everything that I think you need to know about this, which just sounds like what this guy was trying to do with you, it’s like, let me tell you everything you need to know, before he even knows you, right? So, before he has any idea who you are, what you do, what your history is, what you like, what you don’t like… I have a feeling if he had taken the time to learn that you hate sales pitches, he probably would have taken a very different approach. And that’s where I think a lot of people, they lose it on their sales call, is they don’t give the other person the opportunity just to tell them about themselves, just so they have a little bit more trust, and they can break through that initial barrier, ’cause I doubt there was any moment in that interaction, regardless of how nice he was, or any of that, that you didn’t feel at least somewhat on guard.


06:27 Michael: Completely, the entire time.


06:27 Jordan: The whole time, it’s just like keeping distance. You can look at body language and to see, it’s like, no, I’m not really comfortable with you yet, and I can always tell you’re trying to get to something. But when you can remove that just through a real conversation, well, now you have more trust and it can lead somewhere.


06:47 Michael: Yeah. So, take that on your sales calls.




06:55 Michael: It’s good advice. So, yeah, everything’s good down here. Everything good in New York?


07:03 Jordan: Yeah, as good as it can be. I’m not getting as much UV as you’re getting, it’s been cold and rainy up here, but jiu-jitsu’s going well. That’s good.


07:14 Michael: I love that.


07:16 Jordan: It’s really interesting. So, I hurt my knee last week, four or five days ago. I actually just got this whole Eastern machine that I’m really excited to use. It was just delivered a couple hours ago, and I had some podcasts so I haven’t tried it yet. But I learned something really cool. So, basically, in jiu-jitsu, there are different positions, you have full guard, you have half guard, you have open guard, all this stuff. So, when I hurt my knee, it sort of goes to like that you can always train around something, right? So, when I hurt my knee, I was like, alright, I can’t do close guard position because that’s gonna hurt my knee. I can’t do really any stand-up, like shooting or take-down drills, ’cause that’s gonna hurt my knee. What I learned is this whole position of half-guard was actually invented by a guy who his knee was basically destroyed. It was invented by a guy who was like I can’t do close guard so I’m gonna do this instead, and that became half-guard. And it was because he couldn’t do anything else. And it became a very dangerous position, like where if he got someone in his half-guard, he’d be able to sweep them, and everything. So it’s like there’s a whole ‘nother realm of jiu-jitsu with just this one position, that was really cool. It’s like, yeah, my knee is a little bit banged up, but I can still make progress, I can still improve. So it’s been… It’s been really good.


08:31 Michael: And it’s cool that that system, that half-guard was born from or developed through someone with an ailment, who was technically at a disadvantage, many would say, but devised a strategy to succeed in spite of that.


08:50 Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. So everything is good, man. Got another three weeks until my competition. I’ve been maintaining 142 pounds very easily, just nutrition’s been… Nutrition’s been still on point, but way more flexible than when I was initially losing the weight from my first competition, so I feel really good.


09:11 Michael: That’s something I actually wanted to talk to you about, and I’m glad you brought that up, was I did my first giant grocery run when I got down here, and just the… It’s fun walking up and down every single aisle in the store while simultaneously caring about nutrition.


09:33 Jordan: Yeah.


09:33 Michael: It… Really, it brought me back and I’m enjoying that aspect of it.


09:38 Jordan: It’s so funny. I feel like a lot of people might hear that and be like, I don’t understand why that’s special, but from our perspective, at least… At least speaking from my own personal experience in New York City and sort of living the way that we live, it’s very rarely… I don’t have a car, so if I’m gonna go to the grocery store, I can’t just pack up the entire car with a massive amount of groceries. It’s usually picking up whatever I need for that moment or ordering on Amazon and having it delivered. And I remember going to the grocery store and actually picking things out. It’s great. It’s really exciting. It’s like, “Oh, my God, there’s so many options.”


10:13 Michael: You see everything. You forget. And that’s a great point because it does… Without context, it sounds weird, so much of grocery purchases in New York City are delivery. My girlfriend does a lot of cooking, so that has taken that off of my plate, and just the bad… Not necessarily bad habits, it’s kind of the way of life, but I eat out way more when I’m in the city than anywhere else…


10:43 Jordan: Mm-hmm, way more.


10:48 Michael: So, yeah, being able to just walk up and down every single aisle and buy $200 worth of… There’s obviously some enjoyable things, but just so many foods that I have eaten in the past 10 years that I forgot about that I’m excited about, like egg beaters.


11:05 Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome, man. Dude, egg beaters are the best, huge fan. Have a whole carton for 200 calories and significant amount of protein, it’s crazy.


11:16 Michael: Way taster than egg whites.


11:18 Jordan: Yeah.


11:19 Michael: And just straight protein.


11:19 Jordan: Yeah, it’s awesome.


11:21 Michael: I’m glad you’ve been maintaining effectively, and it hasn’t been too difficult, it sounds like.


11:27 Jordan: Yeah, it’s been unbelievably easy. It’s been unbelievably easy. And training feels great, and I haven’t really been able to do any cardio because of my knee, so, yeah, feel really good, man.


11:38 Michael: That’s great. That’s great. I got five solid questions. Before that, something just popped into my head, which was… I’m curious about asking you, I would ask you off the podcast, but I feel like it could make good discussion. You posted something on your story about people getting upset when other people post progress pictures.


12:00 Jordan: Yeah.


12:01 Michael: Is this a case of like Mike doesn’t spend enough time on… ‘Cause I feel like I haven’t seen that.


12:06 Jordan: Yes. Oh yeah, and I got some people really upset about my response to that too. Yeah. So, basically, there is a group of people who say that transformation pictures are fat-phobic, and they say that posting transformation pictures does more harm than good, and you shouldn’t post them ’cause apparently they’re fat-phobic, which is very odd to me. And I can feel myself getting angry as I’m saying it, which is one of the things that I have to keep in check too, right? ‘Cause anytime I feel myself having an emotional response, I have to check that, and try and look at the other side, and say like, “Okay, where is this coming from? Where is the validity?” So I got some… A couple people being like, “Well, they are fat-phobic, and it’s not because they’re insecure.” And one of them was saying there’s actually a lot of research surrounding how it is fat-phobic, and how it’s bad. And I asked for the links, to which they couldn’t provide them.


13:02 Michael: Yeah, let’s see.


13:04 Jordan: They’re like, “Well, I don’t have them. I’ve just read about it.” And I was like, “Well, interestingly, there is a tremendous amount of research showing that transformation pictures are one of the most effective tools at increasing self-efficacy via what’s known as social modeling. And I was able to provide the… It’s very… You can Google it, the main researcher’s name is Albert Bandura, around self-efficacy, and one of the ways to increase self-efficacy is through social modeling, and one of the ways to do that is through transformation pictures.


13:31 Jordan: And I think that every single one of us could probably name either ourselves or clients we’ve had who, through looking at someone else’s pictures and seeing what they accomplished, were like, “Oh wow, I could actually do this,” right? So I think what I wrote in my story was, if you don’t like that other people are posting transformation photos, that’s because it’s your own insecurities. And for me, it’s always been… It’s very clear. If you look at someone’s transformation photos and look at that as a, wow, I can do it, sort of a thing, that’s because your insecurities aren’t taking over. That’s because you’re like, oh wow, that person did something great, good for them, I think I can do it too, versus if you’re looking at that picture and you’re like, ugh, that’s so fat-phobic of them, that’s probably saying something more about yourself and your own self-belief rather than anything about the picture, per se.


14:20 Michael: Got it. That makes complete sense. It’s almost like when you see someone doing something great or impressive, or something that you might want to do, you can go one of two ways, you can go envy or you can go inspiration.


14:41 Jordan: Yes. That’s exactly right.


14:44 Michael: It can make you kinda clam up and get defensive and have negative emotion or it can open a door that you didn’t know was there, which is, this is something that I could accomplish. And whether that’s like a fitness transformation or anything in life, but since that’s what we’re talking about…


15:02 Jordan: It’s something I actually brought up. I was like, that’s like saying if someone posts about their success in their business, from where they started to where they are now, that that’s inherently bad because some people might get upset and depressed that they’re not where that person is. It’s like, “So should no one post about the progress that they’ve had? Is that… I know they have this word, fat-phobic, but I don’t know what… I don’t know. Like, I don’t know, money-phobic or business-phobic, whatever that might be. Could also use it with relationships. If someone posts their picture of them getting engaged, that might make some people envious or jealous, or should no one post a picture of them getting engaged ’cause some people might have a negative feeling about it? It’s like no one’s saying your feelings aren’t valid, but to say that someone shouldn’t do something simply because it might make you feel bad, it’s like that’s ridiculous, and really, you should probably get a hold of your own emotions and ask yourself why are you feeling that way, as opposed to just saying, “Well, they shouldn’t be doing that.” And if you really don’t want them to do that and it really makes you feel bad, then unfollow them. You don’t have to follow them. It’s like you don’t have to dictate what other people do just because it doesn’t make you feel good about yourself.


16:07 Michael: Right. Well…


16:07 Jordan: I get really riled up about this stuff.




16:10 Michael: That’s another discussion, it’s like you’re curating your own feed rather than try to maintain control of the type of content everyone publishes. It’s like follow the people who put the stuff out that you like, but fat-phobic is interesting because you would think that this exact same line of thinking could apply to… I think of the before and afters with a 15-year-old, ectomorph, skinny dude who posts like a five-year put on 50 pounds of weight and a lot of muscle over a five-year window. If that makes someone feel bad, it’s not fat-phobic. He might have more body fat in the after picture, but what is that? Like…


[overlapping conversation]


17:02 Michael: Yeah, yeah.


17:03 Jordan: Who knows? Yeah. The line of logic, the stream of logic doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t hold true across platforms. So the principle of it, you can’t carry that through across industries and across life. It only holds true in that one simple instant in their mind, which why when you try and make logic out of it, they get upset and they can’t provide any links to research or any… It’s emotional, not logical.


17:29 Michael: Is this uptick a negative response to this type of content strong enough that you think coaches might be hesitant to post progress pictures?


17:40 Jordan: Oh yeah, yup. It was funny ’cause when I posted that, I got… The vast majority of response was, “Yes, I agree 100%.” There were two responses, negative being like, “We were wrong, it is fat-phobic,” and then there were other responses from coaches being like, “Thank you so much for saying this because I’ve been worried and contemplating whether or not I should post transformation photos because I’ve seen so much of this. I’ve seen people being attacked and bashed for it.” The interesting part about it is I sort of think of it like restaurant reviews, where it’s like most people who leave a restaurant review are probably gonna be leaving a negative review. Very few people leave a restaurant and say, “That was so good. I’m gonna go on Yelp or I’m gonna go and I’m gonna… I’m gonna write to the manager, I’m gonna go leave a positive review,” because you almost assume just… When things are good, you just assume that’s how it’s supposed to be.


18:34 Michael: Right.


18:34 Jordan: But when it’s negative, then you’re like, “Oh, screw that, I’m gonna go in and I’m gonna leave a terrible review.” So I think that a lot of the noise that we see around this is from a very small group of people who are just really angry, and so you might see a lot of people saying, “This is fat-phobic. This is bad. You should never do this.” But the number of people who disagree with that just outnumbers them dramatically.


18:58 Michael: Yeah, that extremely vocal minority. And as we have mentioned many times throughout the 37-episode life of this podcast, transforma… Well, not even just transformation photos but testimonials are one of, if not the best ways to draw in new clients. And so to not… To not post something that, one, is really cool for the person who’s getting the spotlight on them, but two, just to be transparent, like it’s marketing, to not post something that is going to lead to more clients to come your way, that is gonna allow you to help more people because you’re afraid of that vocal minority, or might… Don’t wanna ruffle any feathers, like that’s not a good reason not to post.


19:48 Jordan: Yeah. You bring up a really good point, which is the putting the spotlight on the person who did it, right? I’ve had times… I’ve never had a time where I asked a client, “Hey, would you mind if I shared your progress?” I’ve never had a time where someone was insulted by that. The vast majority of people are like, “Oh my God, I’m so honored. Thank you so much. Yes.” And then they get a huge boost of confidence, a huge like, “Wow, my coach loves what I’ve done so much that my coach wants to share that with their audience.” And then you see the comments in the comment section about it being like, “Oh my God, this is so inspirational. I’m the same age as you. I didn’t think I’d be able to do this. You’ve really inspired me to try harder.” So you’ve, number one… And that’s the perfect example of social modeling, like increasing self-efficacy, someone’s ability to do it. So you’ve put a spotlight on someone, improved their confidence in themselves. You’ve shown them how impressed you are with their work. You’ve inspired other people to do it themselves, and also there’s the marketing aspect too.


20:51 Jordan: And also, for whatever it’s worth, sometimes some clients are gonna say, “You know, I don’t really feel comfortable with you sharing that,” but those clients are like, “Listen, thank you so much. I really… I’m so glad that you are impressed with this and it makes me feel really good. I just… ” I’ve had clients who say, “Yeah, I have a lot of colleagues who follow you, and I don’t feel comfortable with them seeing me in this scenario,” which is like, cool, I won’t share the picture. It’s like it’s up to you, but they’re very appreciative that at least you enjoy it so much, that you’re that impressed that you’d want to share it. So, I’ve literally seen… I’ve never seen any negative response to a transformation picture, except from people who haven’t been able to make their own transformation, and so, out of jealousy and insecurity, they now say transformation pictures are fat-phobic. The only negative response I’ve seen is from people who haven’t been able to do it yet, which it says nothing about the person who’s done it, and it says everything about the person who is just upset about it. So take that for what it’s worth.


21:51 Jordan: I would rather make my client feel really good and inspire other people than not post about my client out of a fear for what someone I don’t know is going to say that they’re like… Did they think that picture is fat-phobic?


22:05 Michael: Boom. Mic drop.


22:05 Jordan: Get out of here.


22:05 Michael: Mike slam. Mike dunk [laughter] Good, I’m glad we talked about that. I think that was good stuff. Question number one.


22:16 Jordan: You really know how to rile me up, Michael.


22:20 Michael: I wasn’t sure that would be the…


22:21 Jordan: I wouldn’t bring this up often, but let’s do this on a recorded call.




22:26 Michael: I’m gonna start doing more of that. Question one, this is more of a fun one, and I promise I didn’t prep for this in any… This one in any way, so it’s complete…


22:38 Jordan: You’re such a liar.


22:39 Michael: I promise. I promise I completely just came across this question, and I modified no behavior. What’s your screen time?


22:50 Jordan: Oh, interesting. Should I check right now?


22:53 Michael: Yeah, I got mine open. So what you can see is…


22:56 Jordan: I didn’t prep for this, but, yeah, I’ve already got it open, ready?


22:58 Michael: No, no, no.




23:02 Jordan: Zero prep has been done. Yeah, I do have mine open right now. It is…




23:08 Michael: Here’s what I meant. I meant I didn’t modify my cellphone usage in any way for asking this.


23:12 Jordan: Got it. That makes sense. Got it.


23:15 Michael: I actually have my screen time as the first swipe left.


23:20 Jordan: Oh okay. I didn’t know you could do that.


23:22 Michael: So I guess we… So do you see where it says, “Most used”?


23:26 Jordan: Yup.


23:27 Michael: I guess we can just go down the list.


23:29 Jordan: Okay, yup.


23:32 Michael: You wanna start? You could start. I love what my number one is.


23:33 Jordan: You’re gonna laugh. Is your number one YouTube?


23:37 Michael: Very close, but no.


23:40 Jordan: Wow, what’s your number one?


23:43 Michael: You gotta think Michael Scofield.


23:44 Jordan: Netflix. Oh no, Amazon Prime.


23:46 Michael: Hulu. Hulu.


23:47 Jordan: Hulu. Hulu. Got it, got it, got it, got it. Got it. And anyone who doesn’t know who Michael Scofield is, Prison Break, amazing show, absolutely incredible show.


23:56 Michael: Yeah, it’s a great show. Jordan got me hooked. Start 2005, I think it’s five seasons. I’m still on season one. Very enjoyable.


24:05 Jordan: What’s your daily average screen time?


24:07 Michael: Man, I don’t even wanna say that.




24:11 Jordan: What’s yours? You gotta show me. You gotta show me.


24:15 Michael: Dude, I’ll be honest. My daily average screen time is eight hours and 12 minutes, which is a lot.


24:21 Jordan: Wow. Mine is eight hours and five minutes.


24:24 Michael: That’s pretty crazy.


24:26 Jordan: That’s insane that we’re so close.


24:29 Michael: That’s crazy. Yeah, and mine’s up 7% from last week, just for whatever that’s worth.




24:34 Jordan: Mine’s down 14%, I must have had a rough week.




24:40 Michael: What is your most used? Instagram?


24:42 Jordan: Yeah, most used is Instagram.


24:45 Michael: And how much time on there?


24:47 Jordan: In terms of the… Oh, today or the weekly average?


24:53 Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we’re on weekly…


24:55 Jordan: Yeah, weekly.


24:56 Michael: It’s basically half a week ’cause it’s one… Mine says Hulu four hours and 48 minutes…


25:02 Jordan: Today, or just for the week?


25:03 Michael: No, in the last three and a half, four days, I guess.


25:08 Jordan: Okay.


25:09 Michael: YouTube, four hours and 40 minutes, which makes sense. I listen to YouTube while I’m lifting, and that has to be open for that. And then my messages is four hours and 11 minutes.




25:24 Michael: Yahoo Fantasy Football app, four hours and two minutes. I swear some of these just gotta be sitting on my phone open while I’m watching football.


25:35 Jordan: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe not.


25:39 Michael: Maybe not though. Maybe I’m just a complete piece of crap. I got my notes at an hour and 11 minutes, my Instagram at an hour and four minutes, and Safari is also an hour and four minutes.


25:51 Jordan: Got it. Okay, I’ve got a… This is bad. Instagram, Instagram’s at 17 hours and 54 minutes.


26:03 Michael: Hey, when you have… You got a million followers yet? When you’re making content, when you’re answering DMs, when you’re doing good work…


26:11 Jordan: Then we got… So Instagram, 17 hours, 54 minutes. You know what’s next?


26:18 Michael: Is it that game?


26:20 Jordan: It’s the shooting game.


26:20 Michael: I love it. I love it.


26:23 Jordan: I’ve been playing the shooting game. So I’ve never been a gamer. I didn’t get a TV until a few months ago, and I haven’t had a TV in a long time, but there’s this shooting game, it’s called World War Heroes, that’s actually really good. And for whatever its worth, Rico is a big gamer, Rico loves games, and he would always laugh that I would play this game on my phone, and then he downloaded it, and he said he’s been playing this game more than his Playstation. So, really good game.


26:53 Michael: It’s a legit game.


26:54 Jordan: Three hours and 59 minutes on that this week.


26:56 Michael: That’s not bad.


27:00 Jordan: Messages, two hours and 21 minutes. Safari, one hour and 31 minutes.


27:08 Michael: Man, you text… You’re on text about half of what I’m on text.


27:13 Jordan: Yeah, but I would imagine a lot of that is Gary, I would imagine.


27:19 Michael: Yeah. Okay.


27:19 Jordan: Oh, and you’re on a bunch of text threads.


27:21 Michael: I gotta get off those threads.


27:23 Jordan: I’m not. I hate texting. I hate texting. I’ve got just my phone calls, 29 minutes. My camera is 25 minutes. Twitter is 24 minutes. So then just like, podcast, WhatsApp, Uber, Amazon take up…


27:38 Michael: 24 minutes in four days. Good job.


27:40 Jordan: Twitter?


27:42 Michael: Yeah.


27:43 Jordan: Yeah, yeah. I’ve been doing really well with not consuming content on there, only making content.


27:46 Michael: That’s smart. Well done.


27:48 Jordan: So, yeah, eight hours and 13 minutes, I don’t know if that’s good or bad, but… Oh, interesting. So it has different categories, so social networking, it says 21 hours and 14 minutes, games, three hours, 59 minutes, and creativity is one hour and 13 minutes, so I wonder… ‘Cause my camera, I have 25 minutes on there. Photos, I have 22 minutes on there. So maybe that’s creativity, like making content and stuff…


28:12 Michael: These are crazy stats. They have number of daily pickup average, how many times you pick up your phone, they have the first used app after pickup.


28:21 Jordan: That’s crazy.


28:24 Michael: Nuts. Nuts.


28:26 Jordan: Yeah, that’s a good question. Someone asked us that?


28:28 Michael: 23 minutes, Mike’s Macros.


28:32 Jordan: There we go.


28:35 Michael: Yeah, somebody asked us that. That was on our list.


28:36 Jordan: It’s a good question.


28:41 Michael: More on topic, is making clients sign a minimum three-month contract a good idea or a bad idea?


28:51 Jordan: I’ve never been a fan of that. Actually, that’s a lie. I became a non-fan of that after a brief period of time doing it because I was told to do it. So, earlier on in my career, I was told that I should have clients sign a contract for… I was told they should sign two things, and for whatever it’s worth, I’m gonna put out a disclaimer, I’m not suggesting you do or don’t do any of these, so it’s up to you here, but I was told they should sign a contract for how long they’re gonna be working with me, and also that they should sign a waiver in terms of their safety, and that I’m waived of all responsibility and legal issues. Now, we can talk about both of those, and briefly for the waiver for legal stuff, again, it’s up to you if you wanna do that. My mom is a lawyer. I have many lawyers that I’ve spoken with. Basically, they’ve said that, number one, if someone really wants to go after you, a waiver will never hold up. So, for whatever that’s worth, it’s mainly just a scare tactic, from what I’ve heard. And as soon as someone told me that, that it’s mainly just a scare tactic, I was like, I’m not doing it anymore, because I didn’t like the idea of starting off a relationship with a scare tactic. I was like, I don’t like that.


30:12 Jordan: I don’t like the idea of beginning this relationship, this coach-client relationship with I’m gonna try to scare you into not suing me. That’s just… It didn’t feel good, so I stopped doing it. And it also made the process a little bit smoother. I didn’t have to say, “By the way, did you sign the waiver yet?” Could you scan it over?” I just… I didn’t want that, so I removed that. And then, in terms of the contract, it was the same thing. It was a scare tactic, because, realistically, if they’re paying you through PayPal, or whatever it is, what are you gonna do if they cancel their account? You’re gonna go after them? Are you actually… Like, “You signed this contract.” Are you actually gonna spend your time and money to go after them because they didn’t fulfill… Like you’re out of your mind. And when I realized they were both scare tactics and that I wasn’t gonna waste my time trying to go after, I was like, “What is the point?” So instead of… And what I actually found worked better than that was just saying… Was saying, “Listen, a lot of people recommend that we have a contract.”


31:10 Jordan: I don’t do that. When I sign on with someone, I’m signing on, I’m doing a handshake deal, and I’m just saying, “I trust you, and I’m very excited to work with you for the next three months. And if something comes up where you can’t see it through, I’m not gonna be mad about it, like life happens. But I would like you to at least stick to your minimum agreement for three months and see it through to the best of your ability,” and 97% of people do.


31:34 Michael: Yeah. Yeah. We’re very aligned on that. I never had an actual waiver, and that step in the process would infuriate me over time, especially… I guess there’s digital signatures now, so that makes it easier, but any time… Like once every six months, I swear someone needs me to print something, sign it, and scan it. And I’m just like, what is that process? I don’t have the machinery to make all of those things happen. So, in my assessment, there’s an initial, this box that is a waiver-ish, like some legal advice that I was given seven years ago, that has been in there since on the subject of a payment contract. No, and for a very similar reason, just that if the client breaks it, first, a very small number, a very small percentage of clients don’t fulfill their minimum obligation, and that’s without a contract. For the very small number of clients who stop early and don’t have a legitimate reason, right? Like sometimes something happens, and even if you did have a contract, you’d say…


32:49 Jordan: You’d be like absolutely, yeah.


32:49 Michael: Of course, you don’t need… Yeah, but for the very small percentage who, without a reason, stop, what are you gonna do? You’re gonna hire a legal team? You’re gonna go after him? You’re gonna get him in small claims? What are you gonna do for a month or two months of coaching revenue?


33:08 Jordan: They said they were gonna be with me for three months in my online coaching program. Judge Judy is like, “What are you doing? Get out of here.”


33:18 Michael: And I don’t… And I don’t even know if that’s the type of issue that would go to small claims. Do you? Is small claims just under a certain dollar value?


33:27 Jordan: I have literally no idea. I don’t even know what small claims… I don’t know any of it.


33:33 Michael: Well, you threw that, my mom’s a lawyer, earlier in this, so I thought maybe you had some magic up your sleeve on this.


33:35 Jordan: No, I said that just because… I’ll tell a story. My mom, she… Ever since she first realized that my online business was actually a business, she was down my throat with being like, “You need to do this, you need to do this, you need to get an LLC, you need to do this, you need to do that.” And I was just like, “Mom, I don’t know how to do any of this,” and I was just the worst with all of it. So just because… It’s funny. I remember when I was 18 and I was living in Israel, one of the kids I lived in Israel with, his dad was a doctor, and no matter what happened, no matter what the discussion was like, if it was about surgery or if it was about health or nutrition, he would always be like, “Oh, my dad’s a doctor. I know.” And I would always be like, “Sam, your dad is a doctor. Not you.” And this is a kid who like chain-smoked cigarettes, never worked out, like he was, “Oh, my dad’s a doctor.” I know. I was like, “Sam, stop saying that. It means nothing.” So I’m not saying… Just ’cause my mom’s a lawyer, it doesn’t mean that I know anything about law. I’m just saying sort of what she told me.


34:43 Jordan: The only thing I am gonna add on that is when someone does ask like, “Do I have to go three months or do I have to go four months?” Or what happens if something comes up and I can’t do all of coaching, or one that I actually got yesterday, and replied to this morning, which was, “Can I just do one month to try it out and see if I like it?” In those situations, I say, “Look, for these reasons, I do have an x-month commitment.” One of the reasons being like you aren’t going to make enough progress to justify all of this in one month. You’re not going to accomplish the goals that you want to accomplish in one month, and so it’s not beneficial for you. It’s also not beneficial for me, from a business side, like putting together an entire phase one program, doing a lot of the legwork, and then, as we know, like month over month, clients become easier. It doesn’t make sense from a business perspective to only take someone on for one month.


35:47 Jordan: So explaining like, “Hey, I appreciate that you’re interested, but I, for these reasons, do require this, and if we are gonna move forward, I would like four months of your very best effort. If something comes up, if you lose your job, like if there’s a medical emergency, these things have happened and, obviously, I understand if you have a legitimate reason you need to end coaching early. But as a kind of… I’m less motivated than I was, and now the holidays are here so I’m going to cancel three weeks in, that isn’t a reason to drop out early.


36:23 Jordan: Correct. And I will say, for whatever it’s worth, when I first started and I didn’t have many coaching applications coming in, and I really needed to make money, you better believe I took people on for one month at a time, because I needed it. And there was… When I didn’t have any recognition or notoriety or any reason for people to trust me as a coach, then I’ll do whatever I could to just get them in the program. So if you’re struggling or if you don’t have any clients, or you’ve only got a few clients, then, yeah, maybe take them on for a month. But as you grow, and as your client base grows, and as you need fewer and fewer people, and as you get more and more coaching requests, then it makes way more sense to give a minimum… I’d say minimum three-month commitment beforehand, because you’re gonna get better clients, they’re gonna stick with you for longer, they know what they’re getting. They’re… More often, they’ll know what they’re getting into from the beginning. So if you’re just starting out, don’t be afraid to start with that, but work towards a minimum requirement of three months.


37:28 Michael: Yeah, that’s good advice. That’s early on, throw all the spaghetti at the wall. You’ve said something that sparked something in my head. I forgot.


37:39 Jordan: Early on, when I was coaching.


37:41 Michael: I’m a little rattled because these new headphones I got are not the most optimal, and I was hearing an echo from… There we go. No, it was about having better clients. The type of person…


37:54 Jordan: Got it. Got it.


37:54 Michael: The type of person who says… There are a lot of people who say… That are saying, “I don’t really trust you enough to commit to this whole thing… “


38:02 Jordan: That’s exactly right.


38:05 Michael: But I’m willing to try a month and see from there. It’s like just consume more of my content, get more comfortable with me, get more familiar with me, and then we can revisit this a few months down the road.


38:17 Jordan: Yeah, it’s a good point ’cause I think a lot of people, they get trigger-happy, right? So, if someone says, I’m interested in their coaching, “Oh, I don’t wanna do three months. How about just one month?” And they’re like, “I don’t wanna lose the sale,” so like, “Alright, yeah, cool. Let’s just do it.” But interestingly, if you say, “Hey, listen, I totally understand where you’re coming from. I think what would be better is if we just wait. You consume more of my content. If you need any help, I’m here, but if you ever decide, coaching, we’re gonna do a minimum three-month commitment, ’cause I know you’re gonna get better results for it, and it’ll be more time together. If you’d like a referral, I can send you to another coach who might be willing to do that.” But it’s funny, I think the earlier on you are in your career, the more scary that can be. It’s like, “No, I just need to sign you on right now.”


39:00 Michael: Yes.


39:01 Jordan: But ironically, it actually works in your favor ’cause they’ll come back maybe the next day, be like, “You know what? I was thinking about it. Let’s do three months. I’m ready.” It’s so funny how that works.


39:11 Michael: An unbelievable percentage of the time that is what happens.


39:14 Jordan: And I get questions like that multiple times a week about the inner circle, and now it’s like, “Hey, I know… ” So I used to do the inner circle by the month, you could join monthly or annually. After, I think, a little over a year of that, I realized that I was putting everything… I put all of my heart and soul in the inner circle, and everything I’ve ever made since December 2015 is in there, and you can join and get access to literally every program, everything. So I had people joining, and there was also a refund, a 30-day refund. So people would join, download everything and then request a refund. And I was like, alright, this is insane. I can’t do this anymore. So now I made… Instead of doing a monthly subscription, is a quarterly subscription, so, basically, anytime someone joins, they initially pay $75, as opposed to only $24.99. And I get people all the time being like, “Hey, could I just do a one-month subscription instead of the quarterly, and do exactly what you just said, where I’m like, “Hey, listen, I used to do that, but here’s what happened.” And I realize I only want people in there who are going to commit to at least 90 days of trying to change their life.


40:20 Jordan: So I would love to help you. If you want a different coach or a different program, I can refer you to another one, but the inner circle is a minimum of quarterly, and an astonishing number of those people sign up.


40:30 Michael: And within 24 hours…


40:31 Jordan: Yeah, I’m in, including the people who say they can’t afford the quarterly payment, they can only afford… A lot of those people, “Yeah, I just can’t afford it right now.” Totally fine, understand. If I can ever help, I’m always here, but this is how it works. And then they sign up.


40:48 Michael: And once there’s only one option, they find a way to afford it.


40:52 Jordan: Correct. Yup.


40:54 Michael: Next up, question three, how do you convince the older generation, mainly women, the benefits of resistance training? And I picked this question… I think it’s an interesting one. It’s like you and I can go back and forth and talk about the benefits of resistance training for anyone, especially an aging population, but the reason I picked this one is the word ‘convince’ stood out to me. How do you convince someone… Or how do you convince the older generation, mainly women, the benefits of resistance training? This might be wrong and this might have lost me clients and impact and doing good in the world over the years, but I really try to steer away from convincing anyone of anything. And to give an example that’s really close to me like… So it’s very real, in 2012… 2011, I think I was an accountant at the time, I remember my mom, and I’m picking my mom because she’s in her late 50s, and so she’s kind of in this population, I remember her saying to me like, “Hey, what’s up with this Macros thing? And like is this gonna go on forever? And this was shortly after discovering lean gains, and I was very… “


42:30 Michael: Thankfully, I was never that obsessive, but I was tracking and I was paying attention to things, and I was mostly just passionate and very interested in the numbers side of nutrition. And I was like, “Yes, mom, it’s gonna go on forever, like leave me alone.”




42:47 Michael: But there was no me trying to explain my position, there was no trying to explain the benefits, there was no like… You could use it and it could help you in X, Y, Z ways. It was more just like, “I’m staying in my lane. This is it,” and almost unconscious. That’s how I lived, and that’s something that I’ve done with roommates, with various people, which is not even lead by example, just live my life the only way I know how to do it. And I like to strength train, so I’m consistently going to the gym. I like to have my nutrition in a pretty good spot most of the time, so if I was living at home, my parents saw that. If I was living with roommates, they saw that. They saw me really go work out. They just saw me living life, and when that person was ready to start chasing down whatever goal they wanted to chase down, I was almost always the first person they were asking questions, “Hey, what should my workout routine look like? Hey, why do you take the skin off of the… “


43:55 Michael: I remember Dean, my roommate in New York, “Why do you take the skin off of the chicken? Why do you buy the Greek yogurt that tastes like crap? Why do you do all these things [laughter]?” Because he was trying to get shredded at the time, and he did. So, fast forward, within the last 18 months, my mom has… Her doctor said that, for her bone health, she needs to get into strength training, and so I made her a program. She’s been pretty consistently going for almost two years now, and that was like the bridge, but there was no, I’m gonna convince her that this is a good idea. It was, I know this is a good idea. I’m gonna embody it and I’m gonna teach it for those who care to listen, and when that person is ready, I’ll be there to help.


44:47 Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. I love that and I agree completely. I’m thinking… I’m wondering if this person might be asking from the perspective of if they have a current client who’s sort of being an obnoxious client, is being like, “Why am I doing this? I don’t wanna be doing this. So you have a client who you’re trying to get through in a strength train, but they’re very resistant and they’re like, “Well, I just wanna do this. I just wanna do this.” And for whatever it’s worth, those clients are few and far between. They’re not the norm. They’re not the majority.


45:18 Jordan: That being said, there are two different scenarios I can pull here, one of which is the client’s fault and the other is your fault, right? So when the one is the client’s fault, where no matter what you say or do, they’re just like, “I don’t wanna do that, I wanna do this, I wanna do this instead, I wanna do this instead,” anytime that’s happened, my initial response… It’s not my initial response, but the response I eventually get to, if they’re being really tough, is I’m not gonna try and convince them. Like Mike said, I’m not gonna try and convince them. I’m gonna say, “Listen, why did you hire me?” I have to ask, “Why did you hire me?” Well, it’s ’cause I know you’re good at what you do and I want you to help, so let me help.


45:58 Jordan: I’m not telling you to do this for shits and giggles. I’m not telling you to do this just because I think it’s fun. It’s like, realistically, if you could get the results that you told me you wanted from wrapping yourself in cellophane, it’s like I would tell you to do that, if that actually worked. If the best way to get your results was to go on an elliptical for 45 minutes a day, I would tell you to do that, but based on the results that you told me you want, and you hiring me, I’m telling you to do it in the most efficient way possible, which is through resistance training, what I’m having you do. So that’s if it’s the client’s fault.


46:31 Jordan: But then there’s another instance which it could be your fault, which I think this is something to really pay close attention to where I think a lot of coaches, and I made this mistake earlier on in my career, is basically my idea of resistance training was powerlifting, because I was a powerlifter, so everyone who came through my door was, “Oh, well, there we’re getting a powerlifting program.” I was like… ‘Cause that’s what I wanted to be. I wanted to be a powerlifter, so it’s like, “Cool, you work two full-time jobs, you got a couple kids, you’re barely getting any sleep. Powerlifter.” It’s like… That’s just what I did.


47:06 Michael: We’ll have you pulling four plates in no time.




47:10 Jordan: Exactly, and that was a huge mistake that I made. So you have to ask yourself, are you doing resistance training in a way that actually makes sense for that individual? And could you be doing it better? And I think, a lot of times, coaches under… Or they overestimate. I’m trying to think if it’s underestimate or overestimate. I think they overestimate what they need to do in order to consider it strength training or resistance training, right? So they’re like, “Alright. Well, you need to be going heavy.” It’s like, alright, well, you’ve got a 65-year-old woman here who’s never strength-trained before, bodyweight squats to a chair for three sets of eight is strength training. That’s resistance training. You don’t need to have them holding a 25-pound kettlebell in a goblet position. Have them doing a slow, eccentric bodyweight squat to the chair. Have them do some band pull-aparts, that’s resistance training.


48:09 Jordan: If you really understand resistance training, and can separate resistance training from maximal effort strength training, and understand the differences that people need based on their age, and based on their training level, well, now you can understand that bodyweight stuff might actually be strength training and resistance training for a lot of people. And not to mention, we seem to understand progression in so many areas. You don’t just start someone off with a snatch grip deadlift from… Versus bands and chains, but you also have to use progression in terms of understanding that it might take someone a while before they get to where you want them to be. So you might know it’s gonna take them a while to lose a certain amount of body fat, you might know it’s gonna take them a while to do certain things, so why do you just expect them to start with what you consider optimal resistance training? If this person is someone who’s like, “Well, I really wanna be doing cardio.” Well, cool, what if you say, “Alright, what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna do 20 minutes of cardio, but before that, we’re gonna do three sets of squats,” and that’s just all you start with, is by no means optimal on paper, but you’ve just… You’ve now got them doing squats. And maybe you do that for a month, and then after the month, they’re like, “Oh my God, look at my butt.” It’s like, “Yeah, that’s from the squats. Sure as shit not from the elliptical.




49:22 Jordan: It’s like, “Alright. Well, can we do some other stuff?””Yeah, cool. Now you go from three sets of squats and you add three sets of RDLs. Now you… Instead of doing 20 minutes on the elliptical, now you do 10 minutes, and you fill the rest in with strength training.” So you have to have progression here. And I think it’s important to really analyze both sides, one could be the client’s fault, the other could be your fault, and you have to objectively analyze is it you or the client?


49:45 Michael: Great answer. I think we hit that one from all angles. Lastly… We’re getting close, so we’re gonna wrap it up here.




49:56 Jordan: Was that why it was so hard for me not to say, that’s what she said.




50:05 Michael: I mean, but we did. Number four, does carbohydrate intake matter when in a calorie deficit? You’re darn right it does. You’re darn right it does.


50:19 Jordan: Go off on that, Michael.


50:22 Michael: I don’t even think I need to go off that hard. Carbs are excellent, excellent fuel, and this is just one angle of it. Carbs are amazing fuel for strength training, and all else equal, if we have protein near weight, and we have calories set at a certain number, like to have 200 grams of carbs and 50 fat, your workouts are going to be relatively solid. We’re leaving out a lot of factors, but if we compare 50 fat, 200 carb to zero carb and whatever the difference, like a 120 fat, or some kind of keto carnivore macros, however you wanna look at it, your training quality is going to drop drastically. There’s also, from the perspective of adherent, like setting carb intake within a reasonable range, and that can be not too high too, like when I was on 45 fat, 675 carb, that might have been cool for the bulk glory and for the, let me see what I can do here with body comp and let me just not care about my GI track or my sugar intake [laughter], but let’s try not to store as little body fat as possible and gain as much muscle as possible. But from an adherence perspective and from how I felt, that wasn’t a great long-term solution, but being in a moderate range on both makes sense. I would imagine the question is also referring to, “Do you have to hit your carbs exactly or can you be a little higher or a little lower? And as long as you’re in a calorie deficit, will you still make progress?” And as we know, the answer is yes.


52:21 Jordan: Yeah. I would say… Honestly, I’d say the two major points that I think are most important are, number one, the performance aspect. The research on carbohydrate intake and performance is just so overwhelmingly clear. It’s pretty… It’s bewildering to me that people could still try and say performance on a low to zero-carb diet is equal, if not better. It’s like, what? Absolutely not. The research showing performance enhancement on a carbohydrate-rich diet is very clear, and I think that’s tremendously important, especially during fat loss when it can be more tough. When you’re in a calorie deficit and maybe your meat is going down, energy is going down, it can be difficult. The worst thing is when you go to the gym and you just can’t do anything, it’s like why would you make it harder on yourself by taking out all your carbs? It’s gonna just be awful. And then also the sustainability aspect of it, it’s like fat loss already sort of sucks, it doesn’t have to be awful, but you’re already limiting yourself, you’re already gonna be reducing your calories, why would you also take out an entire macronutrient? That just sucks, makes it way harder than it has to be, that what she said. It’s like…




53:39 Jordan: So, yeah, that’s the answer.


53:41 Michael: Bang. Great episode. Great questions. Thank you very much for the questions. We hope you enjoyed the episode. We love five-star reviews around here, so if you have 17 seconds and are feeling super-generous, and enjoy this episode, drop us a quick one. We would really, really appreciate that. And we will see you next week. We’re done missing weeks around here. I’m in the mood to overpromise and underdeliver, which I often do. I’m gonna go on a limb and say, we’re not gonna miss a week on this podcast for the rest of 2020.


54:10 Jordan: I love that. Let’s go.


54:12 Michael: Yeah.


54:13 Jordan: I’m in.


54:13 Michael: Yeah.


54:14 Jordan: Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day.

54:16 Michael: Bye, everyone.

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