0:00:11.6 Mike Vacanti: Hello, Jordan.


0:00:14.2 Jordan Syatt: What’s up, Michael?


0:00:15.0 Mike Vacanti: Not much, my man. We just finished recording last week’s episode, and because this next week, I’m gonna be at the National Sports Card Convention with Gary in Chicago. Those are pretty full days, so I don’t know that we’ll be able to record, but we made a real, true, honest to God, commitment to train our very best for weekly episodes, so we’re recording one in advance.


0:00:39.6 Jordan Syatt: Bro, this passion fruit Truly is way better than strawberry kiwi.


0:00:43.7 Mike Vacanti: Ah, you like it? Was the strawberry kiwi too sweet?


0:00:45.5 Jordan Syatt: Strawberry kiwi, it was… Oh, you’re cheers-ing, yeah, cheers. I like the strawberry kiwi, but it’s too bland. The passion fruit has a little bit more tartness to it, which I like a lot.


0:00:57.5 Mike Vacanti: It’s good.


0:00:57.6 Jordan Syatt: The flavor comes through.


0:01:00.4 Mike Vacanti: It is good. I like the lime one as well, if you’re ever in the market.


0:01:03.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, that’s good, I like that a lot. What are we talking about this podcast? Are we just gonna jump right into it?


0:01:08.7 Mike Vacanti: We got questions. You wanna dive right into the questions?


0:01:11.7 Jordan Syatt: No, no, no.


0:01:11.8 Mike Vacanti: The first question is non-fitness, and it’s one that you had said you wanted to talk about, so we can start there.


0:01:16.2 Jordan Syatt: Okay, I don’t remember what it was.


0:01:18.1 Mike Vacanti: Perfect.


0:01:18.9 Jordan Syatt: Oh, is it the bald one?


0:01:20.3 Mike Vacanti: Yes.


0:01:20.7 Jordan Syatt: Oh, cool.


0:01:20.9 Mike Vacanti: And I don’t even have the question in front of me. I just wrote “balding question,” because I assumed you remembered it. It was about, you keep maintaining confidence when you lose your hair.


0:01:28.9 Jordan Syatt: That was prior to having like four drinks. I don’t remember the question.


0:01:33.9 Mike Vacanti: Okay, I’ll make it up. Jordan, how are you so confident, and what advice would you give to someone who’s going bald and I feel insecure about it?


0:01:44.9 Jordan Syatt: Got it. So there’s actually research on this, which I found very interesting. So I started going bald at a young age. My entire family is bald. I remember… Not my entire family, males on my family… In my family are bald. [chuckle] My entire family [laughter], everybody, all the men in my family are bald, and I remember growing up, when you’re a kid, you make fun of your dad. You’re like, “Oh, dad you’re bald,” and he would just look at me, not laughing or anything. He’d just be like, “It’s coming for you very soon.” And I’d be like, “Oh no.” [laughter] But you’re a kid, you don’t really believe him, and I noticed when I was like 17 or 18, I was like, “My hair line is definitely receding.” I could see it early on. No one else noticed it. But I was like, it’s definitely moving back. As soon as I noticed that I was starting to go bald and it might start to be noticeable… So I was living in Israel, I’d graduated college, I’d graduated high school, and I wasn’t going to college right away. So I took a year off, went to Israel. And I vividly remember I was in my apartment, I was like, “My hair is going. I see it.” I could see it going not in… Most people couldn’t see it unless you got really close and you knew me and all that stuff. I was like, it is definitely thinning. So I remember just being like, “Screw it, I’m shaving it.” And I remember…


0:03:20.2 Mike Vacanti: I saw that picture recently.


0:03:21.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I was…


0:03:22.1 Mike Vacanti: I love that idea.


0:03:23.3 Jordan Syatt: I was like, “Screw it, I’m shaving. What’s the point? What am I just gonna do? Try and hold on to this image of me as… ” And I probably had it until I was probably 25, if I really… I probably had until I was 25 before I would have needed to, but I was like, “Screw it. It’s happening anyway. Might as well.” And for me, for whatever reason, I went to the extreme. So the men in my family, they’re not just bald, they have the type of bald where they have hair on the side of their head and around the back, but the top is bald, just like…


0:03:55.9 Mike Vacanti: Which is the most common kind of balding unless someone shaves it, right?


0:04:00.1 Jordan Syatt: I think some people go full bald, but I don’t know. They have like the… It’s like a… I don’t know how to describe it.


0:04:05.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, hair around the sides and back and nothing on top. Yep, yep.


0:04:08.3 Jordan Syatt: Which for me, I was like, I don’t know, I don’t like that look. I don’t like the look of having hair on the side of your head, but not on the top of your head. Just get rid of all of it, right?


0:04:15.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yup.


0:04:16.8 Jordan Syatt: So I remember I was like, I felt like the worst type of bald for me was having hair on the sides and the back, but not on the top. So when I was 18, I literally shaved my head to look like I was like a 60-year-old man, where I had hair on the side of my head and the back, but not the top, and I walked around like that for a week just to condition myself to the looks. And I was living in Israel and all my roommates thought I was insane. They’re like, “What are you doing?” And I was like, “I’m going bald anyway, so I might as well do this.” And I got the weirdest looks, ’cause as a young kid with the weirdest type of bald head you could have imagined, and then after that, I was like, “Cool, I’ll just shave it all off,” and I shaved it all off, and my head has been shaved ever since. And I think that actually worked out really well in my favor because I never tried to hold on to it. I never tried to hold on to this idea like, “Oh, I’ve got a full head of hair, I need to save this.” I was never gonna take Rogaine or get any hair transplants. I never liked any of that stuff.


0:05:16.9 Mike Vacanti: Comb-overs or toupees or…


0:05:19.5 Jordan Syatt: No.


0:05:19.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:05:20.1 Jordan Syatt: It’s like I never liked the idea of pretending to be someone that you’re not. I didn’t like that idea. And that was it. And then I started to look into research, and I remember some… I was dating this girl at the time, I was younger. And she was like, “I’ve never dated someone who had a shaved head, but I really like yours,” and she ended up sending me research and she was like, “I think this is why I like you so much.” There was research that showed…


0:05:45.7 Mike Vacanti: Wait, wait. The girlfriend sent you the research?


0:05:47.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, she sent me this research.


0:05:50.3 Mike Vacanti: Wow.


0:05:50.7 Jordan Syatt: It was really interesting. She sent me this research, and she was like, “I think this is why I find it so attractive.” The research showed that women either find a full head of hair very attractive or completely shaved, bald attractive. But if you’re in the middle and you’re trying to retain a semblance of hair when you clearly don’t have it, that is unattractive, where it’s like if… Which is basically like you’re… It’s showing you’re confident in what you have, right? You either have a full head of hair, which is cool, awesome, or if you don’t, get rid of it and own it, and that was it. And I was like, “That makes a lot of sense,” especially just knowing, generally speaking, what women find attractive in men is confidence, which is different than being cocky or obnoxious, but confidence in who you are.


0:06:36.3 Mike Vacanti: Competence.


0:06:37.3 Jordan Syatt: Competence, yeah. And if you’re pretending that you have a head of hair when you don’t, that is not confident in yourself, no matter what. You cannot argue that pretending to have something you don’t have is confident. That’s insecurity. And that was basically it, and that…


0:06:56.0 Mike Vacanti: That’s owning who you are.


0:06:57.5 Jordan Syatt: It solidified to me, I was like, “Screw it, I’m just gonna own it even more.” And I feel like I did a pretty good job early on. Definitely when I was younger, there was some insecurity there like, “Oh, this sucks, I’m one of the first guys in my age group to start going bald.” But as soon as I shaved… It turned into something funny, people thought it was hilarious when I shaved it in that weird way with the hair on the side at 18 years old. It turned into something funny. And then from there, it was just like, “Listen, if you’re going bald, or you notice it, I would just say fucking shave it.” Get rid of it and own it, and that’s it, and I think people are gonna respect that and like that much more than you trying to hold on to it or… I don’t know, I can’t say don’t take Rogaine or don’t get hair transplants. Who am I to judge? But if it’s my decision, I’d say, “Screw that, just be who you are.”


0:07:45.3 Mike Vacanti: Fully own who you are within the context of it being something that you can’t control. And when I say you can’t control, I mean you can’t control naturally.


0:07:56.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yup.


0:07:57.1 Mike Vacanti: Like hair transplants… I’m gonna try at an analogy, I’m not good at an analogies, so we’ll let Jordan grade me here. But I feel like a hair transplant to being bald is similar to changing your physique by way of where you get your fat sucked out of your legs or out of your stomach and get it injected in your butt.


0:08:18.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah. I think it’s the same.


0:08:20.3 Mike Vacanti: It’s not like changing something, becoming more healthy or starting to exercise or doing anything else, it’s literally, fundamentally changing who you are through a technology to look different.


0:08:34.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And again, if you decide to do that, cool. That’s fine. I just don’t want anyone to feel like they need to do that. I think that’s the difference. If you decide as an adult, you know what, screw it, I’m gonna get hair transplants or I’m going to… Whatever it is. Cool, go for it. Own it. That’s actually an interesting point, ’cause I have many friends and colleagues who have breast implants, for example, and they own it. And it’s funny because I love it when they’re like, “Yeah, I got a boob job and I love my boob job,” and I’m like, “I love that. I love that you own it.” You’re not trying to hide it. You’re not trying to pretend. It’s like, “Yeah, I got a boob job, love my boobs.” I’m like, “That’s fucking awesome. I love that.”


0:09:17.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah.


0:09:18.9 Jordan Syatt: Whatever you do, just own what you do, just own it. And I have a friend who has a tattoo that he hates. He was like, “Yeah, I got a tattoo, and I hate this tattoo.” And I’m like, I don’t know, for whatever it is, whatever you do, just own what you do.


0:09:31.6 Mike Vacanti: It’s honest.


0:09:32.4 Jordan Syatt: Own it.


0:09:34.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:09:34.9 Jordan Syatt: It’s like if you’re trying to hide or pretend or whatever, it’s not a quality that people are drawn to. Whatever it is that you have, whatever it is that you do, just own it.


0:09:44.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:09:45.5 Jordan Syatt: And that, I think, is the most attractive quality.


0:09:48.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Not to mention physical attractiveness is like… There’s a debate about if it’s attractive or not, and then there’s who cares about physical attractiveness, right? Especially… And we don’t have to go down this route. I feel like we’re past this point in our lives than to go down this road, but from what women like in men or what makes you a good mate, physical objective, visual attractiveness is so far down the ladder for guys.


0:10:16.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s true. It’s very true.


0:10:18.1 Mike Vacanti: I’ve always thought that bald and jacked is a great look.


0:10:21.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:10:22.0 Mike Vacanti: Many times, many, many times, starting around late college, ’cause I used to buzz my hair with a OneBlade.


0:10:28.9 Jordan Syatt: Oh, really?


0:10:29.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, 19-20 basically until I started my accounting job, so from 19 to 24, most of those years, I was buzzing it down to a OneBlade, and one year I really wanted to just shave it bald because I thought it would look good. It’s like if I’m going down to a one, which I think is an eighth of an inch, I’m like, I just wanted to put shaving cream on and do the real deal because I thought it was a cool look.


0:10:53.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah. I like bald and beard. Bald with the beard, yeah.


0:10:54.1 Mike Vacanti: That’s great, but I can’t do that, but if I could, I would.


0:10:57.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah. There’s the answer to that question. Good question.


0:11:04.4 Mike Vacanti: Alright.


0:11:04.9 Jordan Syatt: We’re about 11 minutes in.


0:11:06.0 Mike Vacanti: I was looking at the top one. I was like, “That didn’t take 28 minutes.” [chuckle] Have you ever felt like giving up on your business?


0:11:19.8 Jordan Syatt: This is an interesting question. I think we need to clarify. I think there’s a difference between feeling like giving up on your business versus feeling like nothing is working, right? It’s like, there have been many times where I felt like things aren’t working, where I felt like it’s not going the right direction, where I felt like I’m not making an impact, where I felt like, I don’t know if this is actually going to work. But none of that even comes close to equating to, “I’m going to quit.” And if I’m being very honest, I don’t think there’s ever been a time in my entire career where I’ve even remotely thought, “I think I should quit.” But there have been many times where I felt like it’s not going the way that I feel like it should go. Sort of like with weight loss, where it’s like there will be many times, especially if you don’t know how the scale works, you don’t know that fluctuations are normal, it’s very common to be like, “Oh, my scale went up three pounds, this isn’t working.” So what do you do? Do you quit or do you just keep going and wait and be patient? And it’s something that I learned at a really young age, which is like, even if you feel like it’s not working, it doesn’t justify quitting.


0:12:45.2 Jordan Syatt: I think if you’re at a point where you’re feeling like, “I think I should quit,” you need to ask yourself, do you feel like you should quit because you think it’s not working, in which case, you should just keep going, or do you feel like you should quit because this isn’t for you, this isn’t the career or profession that you’re actually interested in? Two different questions, and they’re important to know the answer to. There was never a question that this was the career that I should go, this was always the career path I should follow, and I knew that from the time I was… What flavor is that?


0:13:18.6 Mike Vacanti: Mango.


0:13:19.1 Jordan Syatt: Mango, nice. This is always the career path I knew I should take from when I was 14 years old, there was no question about it. But if you’re at a point where you’re like, “Hey, I think I should quit,” because you don’t know if you coaching people, if you don’t like coaching people, you don’t like doing this, you don’t… Then quit, for sure. There’s a great book, it’s called The Dip. I think it’s by Malcolm Gladwell… No, no, no, by Seth Godin, it’s by Seth Godin. It’s a quick book. You could read this book in 45 minutes. In fact, what I’m about to tell you will nullify the need to read the book, but I think you still should. The Dip sort of turned the idea of quitters never win and winners never quit on its head. Because Seth Godin talks about how actually the people who win are the best at quitting, and what that means is the whole idea like, “Quitters never win and winner’s never quit,” that’s not true. The people who win are very good at understanding what they need to focus on and what they need to quit, and that’s what he calls the dip. And what this signifies is, any time you start something new, the first initial period is a sharp learning curve in which you’re not really expecting to make progress, it’s a very difficult time, you’re learning new skills, new habits, new all these different things.


0:14:37.9 Jordan Syatt: And so this is like the first little bit, that first difficult patch. Once you get past that first difficult patch, you find the dip, and the dip is where you’ve learned new skills, you’ve studied, you’ve practiced, you’ve developed new habits, and you’re figuring out in this dip period, is this worth more time? Because you can either quit in that dip and then transfer to something else, or you can keep going, understanding that you haven’t faced even remotely the hardest of times yet. Because if you decide to keep going past the dip, that is when the real difficulty begins, that is when the drudgery and the monotony and the difficulty and the battle starts. The initial learning phase is difficult because you’re starting something completely new, but it’s relatively quick. You can be over that in a matter of months. Whereas, the building phase, the putting these habits into practice and spending months and years, that’s the battle. And the people who win consistently are able to quit in that dip after the first few months when they realize, you know what, this isn’t worth it for me anymore. So you gotta decide, is this something that you love and you really… You’re willing to spend years building or is it not something you love and you wanna go find something else? And the only person who can answer that is you.


0:16:07.9 Mike Vacanti: Great answer. I haven’t read that book.


0:16:10.0 Jordan Syatt: It’s a great book. But again, basically everything I just said nullifies the reason to read it, but still you might wanna read it. Literally, you could read it in 45 minutes. It’s a very, very quick read.


0:16:18.7 Mike Vacanti: Quick PSA, any time you’re having a drink, like a Truly, just dropping your carbs by 25 for the day [laughter] is the optimal way to always be recomping. It’s just…


0:16:29.2 Jordan Syatt: I like that. There’s only two grams of carbs in this.


0:16:33.3 Mike Vacanti: I know, but…


0:16:33.8 Jordan Syatt: That’s crazy.


0:16:34.6 Mike Vacanti: But there’s basically 100 calories worth of alcohol.


0:16:37.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.


0:16:38.1 Mike Vacanti: It’s about 1.5 ounces of alcohol and… Yeah.


0:16:43.7 Jordan Syatt: Alright, passion fruit. Passion fruit Truly is the best flavor for whatever it’s worth. I’ve had all the flavors, passion fruit’s the best.


0:16:49.7 Mike Vacanti: I like this mango one, but yeah, that one’s good too. Have you ever felt like giving up on your business? I felt like giving up… You know what, I wouldn’t even phrase it that way. I knew that when I was a public accountant, a CPA, an auditor, I knew that if I worked that job for the rest of my life, I would have regretted it on my death bed, that I did not try to do something else. And so it took me over a year from the time I made the decision that, okay, I need to get out of here until I actually quit to have everything right from a personal finance perspective, and just from a life perspective, but I did. I have never felt like giving up or quitting my fitness business or from the fitness industry. I have had periods where I knew something in my life needed to change, and I wasn’t exactly sure what. Usually, that was additive. Meaning, what are other things I need to bring into my life, rather than, what do I need to stop doing related to business. And when it’s what are things I need to bring in, it’s like I need to bring in more sleep, I need to bring in more time not scrolling on my phone, I need to bring in more sunlight, I need to bring in more stimulating conversations with friends, so I started a podcast that ties in. But there’s never been a time where I was, either from lack of success or from burnout, wanted to completely stop doing what I was doing. Yeah, so that’s a little more succinct, but that’s the straightforward answer.


0:18:30.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I like that. There have been times where I felt a little bit burned out and where… So for example, there have been times where…


0:18:37.6 Mike Vacanti: You need transition strategies, though.


0:18:38.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, there were times when I felt burned out with one-on-one coaching, there have been times I felt I burned out with in-person coaching, there were times I felt I burned out with Instagram. There were times I felt burned out with anything, but never was the option to quit. The option was…


0:18:56.7 Mike Vacanti: Pivot.


0:18:56.8 Jordan Syatt: What do I want to focus on?


0:18:58.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:18:58.9 Jordan Syatt: Right? And this is, I think it’s… There are many things to compare it to. One of them could potentially be in fitness, if someone wants to lose weight, it’s like, instead of focusing on what you can’t eat, why don’t you focus on what you can eat more of? Focus on the things that are gonna help you and that you can enjoy while eating more of. And I think this is, for lack of a better phrase, someone might get mad. I think this is the difference between winners and losers. This is the difference between fundamentally winners and losers.


0:19:26.8 Mike Vacanti: Optimism and pessimism.


0:19:27.8 Jordan Syatt: Do you focus on the things that are… That you can’t control, the things that you hate, the things that are negative, the things that are pessimistic, or you focus on the things you can control? The things you can do. If you’re going to win, then you’re gonna focus on the things you can control and you’re always gonna find a work-around, a solution, something else you can do. If you’re going to lose, then you’ll find a reason to lose and you’ll only focus on the things that are too difficult and too hard and not fun and not worth it, and the cool part is you can choose. You choose what you focus on. So you decide.


0:20:05.9 Mike Vacanti: Great answer. I think Michael Jordan in The Last Dance said something along the lines of… It was when he was hurt, and he had a… If you come back and play on that ankle, there’s a 90% chance you’ll be okay, but there’s a 10% chance you’ll get re-injured, and it’ll be really bad, and he was like, “All these guys, upper management, they see the glass as half empty, I’m the only one sitting here seeing the glass as half full.”


0:20:27.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:20:29.0 Mike Vacanti: It’s optimism versus pessimism.


0:20:29.1 Jordan Syatt: What a great series and then…


0:20:30.8 Mike Vacanti: It really was a well made documentary.


0:20:33.2 Jordan Syatt: And then I love that where clearly the upper management was like, “Let’s lose, we’ll get a great pick in the draft,” and Michael’s like, “You don’t play to lose.” He’s like, “If you’re gonna play, you play to win no matter what, every single time.” If you haven’t watched “The Last Dance” it’s a 10, 10 series, 10 video series…


0:20:53.1 Mike Vacanti: 10 episode.


0:20:53.3 Jordan Syatt: Wow, it’s on Netflix. This is my second time watching it. I think it’s your third time watching it. It’s incredible, and you don’t have to be a basketball fan to appreciate how incredible this documentary is. Definitely, definitely watch it.


0:21:11.4 Mike Vacanti: Could not agree more, given that I am making you re-watch it again here.


0:21:16.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. We’re going back and forth between The Office and The Last Dance.


0:21:18.9 Mike Vacanti: Although, in fairness, we’re getting after at 6:30 AM, 6:45 AM in the morning and working…


0:21:26.4 Jordan Syatt: We’re going all day.


0:21:28.4 Mike Vacanti: Straight 12-hour days and then watching an hour, hour and a half at night.


0:21:32.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. It’s been a good business trip.


0:21:33.2 Mike Vacanti: It really has. Okay, I’ve got a fun… I’ve got a fun little intermission exercise, so a couple of weeks ago, we did Overrated/Underrated and I did them for you, you can start with me on these.


0:21:48.6 Jordan Syatt: Overrated/Underrated, and you just want me to read these bullets? Okay.


0:21:52.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, just one. We’ll both talk about it, but just for a little mix in format.


0:21:57.1 Jordan Syatt: Okay, Overrated/Underrated. Knee extension.


0:22:01.5 Mike Vacanti: Underrated.


0:22:03.8 Jordan Syatt: Talk to me about it. I don’t even know, I have no idea where you’re going with this.


0:22:09.1 Mike Vacanti: I stopped doing any isolation work on my quads from basically the day I learned about a hip hinge in 2012, which was unfortunately late in my training career, but until very recently, and since adding back some short stride lunges, some walking lunges, some… I really like a leg extension, like a 15 to 20 rep leg extension to close to failure. I feel so much better since intentionally strengthening my quads and building muscle on my quads, and I don’t know in the grand scheme of where trainers are at from a lower body programming perspective, and what the ratio of hip-dominant versus knee-dominant movements are and how much glute isolation, hamstring isolation, I know glutes have been popular for a few years in culture, and so that translates into programming to get them, but training quads feels really good, and they’re important for everyday movement for gen pop and they’re important in addition to posterior chain strength, obviously, but they’re also important for athleticism.


0:23:20.7 Jordan Syatt: Those are some good points, and it really highlights how the fitness industry runs on a pendulum of extremes, it’s either good or bad, right or wrong, the best or the worst. Ever since I see the rise of glute training, big time in the last few years, I’ve seen a dramatic rise in hip pain, like real, real hip issues coming through with people doing hip thrusts and squats three, four times a week. I’m like, “You think that’s a surprise, you’re driving your hips into the socket.” You’re doing a loaded… Even if it’s not super heavy, you’re doing this three, four times a week, what do you expect? You’re creating some real, real bad habits, and you’re creating some real asymmetries right now. And literally, one of the most common questions is, “How do you grow your glutes without growing your quads?” So I see people just growing their glute… They’re glute-focused, glute-focused, glute-focused, glute-focused with a zero quad training. It’s like, “Man, you’re asking for some real hip issues as you get older.” So yeah, I love that. Definitely, definitely train some more quads. And it doesn’t have to be a lot, even just one or two sets of something is enough to sometimes offset some of the potential negative side effects of only doing glutes.


0:24:40.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:24:40.9 Jordan Syatt: For whatever it’s worth, I hate the…


0:24:43.6 Mike Vacanti: You don’t like leg extensions?


0:24:44.8 Jordan Syatt: No, no, no, it’s not the leg extensions, I just hate the feeling of burning quads.


0:24:49.9 Mike Vacanti: Oh yeah, that’s fair.


0:24:52.2 Jordan Syatt: My fiance, that’s her favorite muscle to work, she loves the feeling of when her quads are burning, she hates the feeling when her hamstrings are burning. I’m the opposite. Hamstring-burning is one of the most rewarding enjoyable ones for me, quads, I want to die. Like when my quads are burning from a leg extension or from a squat or from a walking lunge, whatever it is, absolute torture to me. The worst.


0:25:20.9 Mike Vacanti: Interesting.


0:25:21.7 Jordan Syatt: The worst.


0:25:22.2 Mike Vacanti: It’s funny how that personal preference sneaks in, in various ways.


0:25:25.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:25:27.9 Mike Vacanti: I’ve heard… I had a client email me a few days ago, asking or not asking, but basically saying, “Hey, is it weird that I absolutely hate the feeling of failure, of getting close to failure, burnout on isolation movements?” He’s like “12 and 15 rep curls and lateral raises,” and then yesterday during our upper body day, when you were doing lateral raises, you were like, “Is it… ” And he also said, he’s like, “I love the compound movements, but I hate these isolation moves.”


0:25:53.9 Jordan Syatt: Yep.


0:25:54.8 Mike Vacanti: You were like, “I love compound moves. I hate isolation moves.” It was deja vu.


0:25:57.8 Jordan Syatt: Dude, I get it, I get it. I hate isolation exercises, I just don’t like that burning feeling. Love the compound moves. Alright, Underrated/Overrated, taking the back.


0:26:11.2 Mike Vacanti: I have no idea. I designed this for you, that’s… I guess, I’ll speak for the gen pop, non-combat sport enthusiast…


0:26:19.5 Jordan Syatt: For anyone who doesn’t know, taking the back is not a sexual reference, just so everyone knows, it’s a fighting jiu-jitsu thing like when you take someone’s back and you have control of their back, but yeah, keep going.


0:26:29.2 Mike Vacanti: I’m gonna say that the non-fighter, I’ll speak for all of the billions in the world, probably place an over-emphasis on striking if they were in a situation where they were forced to defend themselves or defend someone they love, and so I would say that taking the back as a general strategy is underrated.


0:26:52.9 Jordan Syatt: Agreed. Taking the back, so when you take someone’s back, imagine… I think the easiest way to explain it is imagine, if you’ve never watched mixed martial arts or fighting or jiu-jitsu, imagine you get to a point where you are able to strangle someone from behind, well, that is essentially taking someone’s back, when you have control of them from behind. This is a very underrated position for many, many reasons. Now, least of which we could think about it just logically from the perspective of if you’re in a fight with someone, most people’s initial gut response, like Mike just said, is to strike.


0:27:29.3 Jordan Syatt: It’s very difficult for someone to strike you when you’re behind them, and even if they can, there are minimal damage strikes. If you’re in front of them or the side of them, there’s kicking, there’s punching, there’s elbowing, there’s head butts, there’s all of that. When you’re behind them, it’s much harder for them to actually cause damage to you. The other reason why getting someone’s back is so, so, so beneficial, underrated is because you have direct access to their neck, and that’s really the key. If you’re really good at fighting or jiu-jitsu, whatever it is, even if you break someone’s arm or you break their leg, or you whatever, you could do anything to one of their limbs, they could have a weapon that they could use, they could access with the other arm. They can still do things, even if a limb is broken or injured.


0:28:19.3 Jordan Syatt: When you have access to their neck and you can put them unconscious by simply… By strangling them. This has turned into a different episode, but when… No one, I don’t care how big they are, how strong they are, whatever, the neck is the most vulnerable part of someone’s body, it is. And it doesn’t take long to put someone to sleep, it doesn’t. And I don’t care how big you are, how strong you are, if you can put someone to sleep, you give yourself the opportunity to get away. And the cool part about when you actually understand how to put someone to sleep, it’s not dangerous to them, it might sound… Oh my God, you’re not killing them, they’re not dead. You’re restricting the blood flow to their brain for a few seconds, which puts them to sleep. They’ll come to within a matter of seconds, but it gives you an opportunity to get away and get safe without actually doing damage. You do more damage when you break their elbow, you break their shoulder. You do way more damage when you attack the limb versus when you attack the neck, but the neck keeps you safe and them safe. So taking the back, super underrated.


0:29:19.7 Mike Vacanti: Nice, you like that one in there?


0:29:20.6 Jordan Syatt: Love that one in there. [laughter] Love that one. Should I go on? Should I do more?


0:29:27.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah.


0:29:27.5 Jordan Syatt: Okay. Overrated/underrated, Gary Vee.


0:29:29.7 Mike Vacanti: We got a solid 10 minutes left here. I think we’ll hit another question after this, so we’ll be relatively quick on these. I put this on here because I wanted an opportunity to mini rant on… Well, first, a specific piece of content I saw, but second, this generalized feeling or position of a mass group of people who characterize… And this is… Remember in 2018, I remember you getting in a Facebook comment war with someone in the fitness industry, who literally took hours to make a very complicated mean, very specific picture, a lot of work went into it with no value to it other than trashing Gary. And you were just going to battle.


0:30:20.5 Jordan Syatt: And I went in, I was like, “You don’t even know this guy. What are you doing?” Yeah.


0:30:26.3 Mike Vacanti: I felt like that with a lot of the… This one characterizing a lot of his positions that aren’t actually true, specifically around work ethic and sleep and many of them, but also the general position that hard work is a bad thing, the general position that things should come easy, and that if you’re working hard at something, that’s not a good use of your time, or that’s not a good way to spend your life. This celebration of apathy and mediocrity, which if embodied universally is the demise of cultures, the demise of humans, is the demise of societies. All great things were built because humans worked hard and diligently over months and years and decades to create those things that bring everything up and make everyone else’s lives better too, ideally. Not always, but ideally. And all of the push-back on that, I hate, for one. And two, there was a YouTube video that popped up the other night, which is why I threw this on here that Gary posted as a short of him garage saling and it popped. There was a less than 60 second video on YouTube. It had millions of views, I think it was on Gary’s channel.


0:31:51.5 Jordan Syatt: Really?


0:31:52.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:31:52.7 Jordan Syatt: Wow.


0:31:53.3 Mike Vacanti: And people just like… It wasn’t a normal like to dislike ratio, obviously. And all the top comments are were like, “Oh, this… “


0:32:02.6 Jordan Syatt: More dislikes?


0:32:04.3 Mike Vacanti: Not more dislikes, but a lot of dislikes.


0:32:05.1 Jordan Syatt: A lot of dislikes, yeah.


0:32:06.3 Mike Vacanti: And all the comments were negative and people trashing him for… I don’t even remember specifics now off the top…


0:32:12.7 Jordan Syatt: Going to garage sales.


0:32:13.1 Mike Vacanti: Why? You’re ripping these people off, why are you spending your time going to garage sales? You sound obnoxious.


0:32:19.9 Jordan Syatt: Was this the book one, or like the books?


0:32:20.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:32:21.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.


0:32:23.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah, and underrated. Underrated.


0:32:30.2 Jordan Syatt: For me, no one’s ever looked up to someone who is lazy. No one’s ever become a world leader, no matter how pure their intentions by being lazy. No one’s ever looked up to someone like, “Who’s your role model?” “So and so.” “Why?” “Well, ’cause they were lazy.” No one and ever.


0:32:50.8 Mike Vacanti: World leader all the way to factory line worker, farmer. Any position should be met with diligence and excellence and hard work.


0:33:01.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, and even if that just means something as simple as being the best you can be for your family, that’s it.


0:33:08.8 Mike Vacanti: 100%, yes.


0:33:10.6 Jordan Syatt: Laziness is not something to revere, apathy is not something to revere.


0:33:16.4 Mike Vacanti: Relaxation is.


0:33:17.8 Jordan Syatt: Rest, recovery is.


0:33:18.9 Mike Vacanti: Yes, yes.


0:33:20.1 Jordan Syatt: Absolutely, it’s not saying burning the candle stick on both ends to the point in which you burn out and you can’t do anything. It’s saying, if you’re blessed enough to have the ability to work hard, to provide for yourself, for your family and on a bigger level, for society, to make the world a better place, it’s your responsibility, and we shouldn’t be… We shouldn’t be celebrating, just playing Xbox all day and sleeping in and smoking and… I don’t know. We shouldn’t be celebrating that in my opinion.


0:33:55.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, Yep.


0:33:57.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Gary V, underrated. Underrated. Alright. Another, we have a question?


0:34:02.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, we got a question. Last one to finish here is, how do you know if you’re in a deficit if you don’t count calories?


0:34:14.6 Jordan Syatt: Okay. So this is a good question. Here’s what I’ll say. I’ll liken this question to… People often ask me, they’ll be like, “Should I be tracking… Or how do I track how many calories I burn?” And I’ll always be like, “I don’t care how many countries you burn, just track how many calories you’re eating and your progress.” And they’ll be like, “Well, how are you supposed to know if you’re in a calorie deficit?” I’m like, “Well, your progress will show you if you are or not.” Which brings up the point. Realistically, you don’t technically need to track your calories in either. Track your progress. All you really need to track is your progress and your progress will tell you whether or not you’re in a calorie deficit. Is your weight going down on a month-to-month basis? If not, you’re not in a calorie deficit. Are your measurements going down? Are your pants or your clothes getting a little bit looser? If these things are not happening, and not every day, not every week, but on a month-to-month basis, then you are not in a calorie deficit period. I think tracking your calories in is significantly easier and more accurate than tracking your calories burned for a number of reasons.


0:35:23.9 Jordan Syatt: So I like to track calories in and progress, so you have two of the three most important things in a very accurate way to understand what changes you can make in order to continue seeing great progress, but really, how do you know if you’re in a calorie deficit? You keep track of your weight, you keep track of your measurements, you keep track of your pictures, you keep track of your clothing size on a consistent basis, and if they’re improving, you’re in a calorie deficit. If they’re not, you’re not.


0:35:50.6 Mike Vacanti: That’s right. It’s 100% correct. You need a lot of time to know if you’re in a calorie deficit if you are not tracking, because day-to-day fluctuations, food in your stomach, hydration, glycogen, sodium, all of these things ’cause day-to-day scale weight to vary as we all know. And so like Jordan said, he didn’t say day-to-day or week-to-week, he said month-to-month scale weight will tell you if you’re in a deficit or not. If you want to know if you’re in a deficit immediately like today, track.




0:36:27.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:36:27.9 Mike Vacanti: And if you have a serious reason or a mental health or a psychological reason for not tracking calories, fair, understood, good. Don’t track them. If it’s out of, “I don’t wanna learn, it seems hard, it seems confusing, it takes a long time, it’s annoying,” any of the above and anything related to that, track your calories, track your macronutrients. You’ll know that day if you’re in a deficit or not, or be okay knowing that you’re gonna have to wait a little while to know whether or not you’re in a deficit.


0:37:05.9 Jordan Syatt: Correct. Yeah, another way. And you said this yesterday, if you’re not hungry…


0:37:12.8 Mike Vacanti: Oh, this is my general rule?


0:37:14.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:37:15.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. If right before bed, you’re a little bit hungry and you got that little burning feeling in your stomach and you wanna eat something and you do and you go make yourself a sandwich and go to bed, you probably weren’t in a deficit that day. However, if you have that feeling right before bed, stomach’s burning a little bit, a little bit hungry, it’s 9:30 at night, you’re going to bed in a half hour and you just go to sleep without eating anything, you were probably in a deficit for the day.


0:37:41.9 Jordan Syatt: And obviously that’s not accurate if you had pancakes and waffles and ice cream earlier in the day at 2:00 PM, and you’re hungry, but if you’re keeping everything in check, and you’re doing 98% of things properly, it’s actually a pretty good marker to go by.


0:37:55.7 Mike Vacanti: Good heuristic, yeah. Especially if you have some experience tracking.


0:38:00.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:38:00.8 Mike Vacanti: If you don’t have experience tracking, then you have less structure around your meal timing and macronutrient composition of your meals and you’re less likely to be there and less… Basically, you have a worse chance of intuitive eating being successful, the less experience you have tracking calories and macros.


0:38:22.8 Jordan Syatt: Yep. Yeah, it’s one of the… Actually, the first questions I’ll ask clients if someone swears up and down that they’re in a calorie deficit, it’s just not working, one of the first questions will be, “Hey, tell me how is your hunger on a scale of one to 10, one being not hungry at all, 10 being outrageously hungry?” And if they tell me that they’re really not that hungry, then I’m like, “Well, then clearly you’re not in a deficit.”


0:38:42.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:38:43.9 Jordan Syatt: ‘Cause it’s part, unfortunately, of being in a deficit. It’s like… I was hungry during my cut for my jujitsu competition. I wasn’t starving, but I was more hungry than when I could just eat whenever I wanted.


0:38:54.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. When you compare it to not tracking at all or when you compare it to maintenance calories, you might not be starving, but you’re gonna be… You’re gonna feel a difference compared to being at maintenance.


0:39:07.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. That’s it. That’s great podcast.


0:39:12.4 Mike Vacanti: Great episode.


0:39:14.5 Jordan Syatt: Get some Trulys. Again, not sponsored, we just had a couple Trulys over the last few hours and passion fruit is my favorite. What’s your favorite? Mango? Passion fruit?


0:39:20.9 Mike Vacanti: I think mango is my favorite Truly flavor.


0:39:23.8 Jordan Syatt: I like it.


0:39:23.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:39:24.7 Jordan Syatt: Awesome. Thank you for listening. Please leave a five star review. They’ve been helping a ton. If you wanna join the mentorship, get coached by Mike and I, we would love to have you. The link is in the shownotes. Have a wonderful day and we’ll talk to you soon.

0:39:37.5 Mike Vacanti: Bye, everyone.

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