In this episode, we have an in-depth conversation about when you should quit your day job to become a full-time online coach. We also hear Mike’s impression of a foghorn (spoiler alert, it’s not good), how hard work isn’t “cool” anymore, making content, and more.


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-J & M


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You can download a PDF version of the transcript here


Or you can expand to find the full episode transcription below:


0:00:11.6 Michael Vacanti: Hello, Jordan.


0:00:14.0 Jordan Syatt: Hello, Michael.


0:00:14.0 Michael: Bro, I got a story for you.


0:00:16.1 Jordan: You’ve been waiting for this one.


0:00:17.8 Michael: I haven’t, I just thought to bring it up and literally… Okay, so last night, I go to bed, right? I didn’t have that much caffeine yesterday, feeling really good, tired. Rooms cold, dark, perfect conditions. It’s about to be an incredible seven to nine hours of sleep. It felt like no more than 20 to 30 minutes had passed, and I heard this…




0:00:50.0 Michael: Off in the distance, and I’m like, “What is going on? There’s a train passing, there’s no train tracks around here… This is very odd, I’m just gonna… I’m just gonna wait this out.”




0:01:06.4 Michael: I mean, so it took me a little while, but I fell back asleep and…


0:01:11.2 Jordan: What time was that at…


0:01:13.1 Michael: I don’t know, it felt like 30 minutes after I fell asleep though, I felt like I had barely been asleep, I managed to fall asleep, and next thing I know, I’m hearing… Off in the distance and I’m like, “This train.” I was like, “I’ve never heard a train. There are no train tracks anywhere close… ” In my mind, I’m running through all these scenarios like they built a train or there are tracks and this train doesn’t run, but they have to get emergency supplies across the country, so they’re running at all hours of the night, and I don’t know maybe… Why is it making that noise? I look at my phone, it’s 4 o’clock, I was like, What is going on? Just two trains in a five-hour window, this doesn’t make any sense, and I’m like, “Okay, I’ll just wait this one out.” so I wait to… Five minutes, 10 minutes passes, I’m still hearing…






0:02:08.7 Michael: Off in the distance. So I get up and go to the bathroom, I kinda got a piss, I try and kill some time, I go out there and I don’t hear it as much. I’m like, “Oh, so it’s not on… “


0:02:19.1 Michael: I was thinking it was on the north side of the house, and it’s actually on the sell side of the house… Interesting, I didn’t know there are any train tracks back there, way back down, literally for the next 20 minutes from 4 to 4:30, and I’m getting pissed. I’m like, “Why did I buy this house? The previous owners definitely knew they were putting train tracks in, and that’s why they sold it.” and I’m like, “I got robbed.” I’m like, This is… I’m furious, ’cause you know how I am with sleep.


0:02:46.5 Jordan: Oh I know, I know.


0:02:47.4 Michael: Furious. And another 10-15 minutes passes.




0:02:58.7 Michael: I’m like, This is the longest… I’ve said it, train tracks, I’ve seen some big trains, but I’m like, This is really… This is absurd. So I’m like, Alright, whatever, it’s 4:45, I’m getting up, I’m starting my day. I don’t feel great from that terrible night of sleep, but I’m starting my dad, I grab my phone, turn off the White noise machine that plays on my phone while I’m sleeping.


0:03:21.2 Jordan: I was gonna ask if you had a white noise on and you could still hear this…


0:03:23.5 Michael: And I could still hear it over the white noise.


0:03:25.1 Jordan: Okay.


0:03:26.3 Michael: And I look and usually it says airplane cabin because that’s my white noise machine. But this morning it says foghorn. So one; I’m like, “Thank God there’s no train” like, I’m pumped but then the other part of me is like, “Why is there a foghorn like sleepy sound?” It was terrible…




0:03:53.7 Jordan: So you accidentally put it on foghorn…


0:03:56.2 Michael: Yeah, I don’t know how I’ve never… I didn’t even know there were other options in the app because it’s only been on airplane cabin, the one that’s all I’ve ever listened to on there years.


0:04:06.7 Jordan: So was it like a high pitch. Like…




0:04:13.9 Michael: Exactly, that’s a better impression. That’s well done from someone who’s not tone deaf…


0:04:20.6 Jordan: As you were doing that impression, I was like, “Man, that didn’t sound like a foghorn at all.”


0:04:25.5 Michael: Okay, alright, Jordan.




0:04:31.7 Jordan: Did you go back to bed then? Or now you were up?


0:04:33.9 Michael: No, I crushed my emails, I actually did try to go back to bed for a solid 30 minutes and I couldn’t, and I was thinking about stuff and I can usually go back to sleep fine. It’s like, I’m getting up and getting after it.


0:04:47.3 Jordan: Oh, man, that sucks. I’m sorry, bro.


0:04:48.5 Michael: I’m not… I’m very happy there’s no train tracks.


0:04:51.0 Jordan: Yeah. Oh yeah, that’s good. Yeah, the previous owners didn’t. Just immediately goes to the most malicious, “Oh, those fuckers knew what was happening, which is why they got out.” [laughter]


0:05:06.5 Michael: Yeah. That’s why they moved, that’s why they switched towns.


0:05:12.3 Jordan: We got a white noise machine ’cause we were using apps for it, but the apps, they couldn’t go as loud as we wanted it to, and they’re just like… We wanted more options, so we got like a $15 white noise machine on Amazon, and it’s perfect. If you wanna try that out, but.


0:05:32.7 Michael: If you wanna not miss click a foghorn.




0:05:38.1 Jordan: Oh man, well, at least you didn’t have any bad nightmares…


0:05:44.2 Michael: That’s true. Do you wanna expound on that?


0:05:47.0 Jordan: Yeah, yeah, well. My jiu-jitsu coach cancelled training this morning and he texted me at 9 o’clock and we had training scheduled for 10, and he was like, “Hey brother. I can’t make training today. I had a nightmare.” and He’s Brazilian, like English isn’t his first language, so my first thought is like, “Oh, a nightmare must have happened with his kids or with his wife or with his family, I know his mom was in town, there must just be a nightmare going on.” and I was like, “Oh, shoot. Are you okay?” He was… [laughter] And basically, he just confirmed he just had a bad dream and had to cancel training because of his bad dream.


0:06:33.7 Michael: I wonder what the dream was.


0:06:35.5 Jordan: That’s what I wanna know. I’m gonna ask him tomorrow, assuming he doesn’t have another bad dream tonight.


0:06:40.9 Michael: Have you ever had a bad dream, shake you like that?


0:06:43.8 Jordan: Not so much where I had to cancel my daily activities, I’ve had a bad dream, wake me up to where I’m really upset, where a dream just actually changes my mood for the day, I’ve had dreams about…


0:06:58.9 Michael: Oh, for the day?


0:07:00.6 Jordan: Yeah, yeah, I’ve had dreams about my wife where she’s just betraying me, and I wake up and I’ll be upset with her about it, but I won’t take it out on her, I’ll be like, and I’ll say I had an awful dream about you and she handles it so well, she’s like, “Oh my God, I’m so sorry… But it will change my mood for sure.




0:07:24.6 Michael: Interesting.


0:07:25.8 Jordan: But I don’t cancel my daily obligation.


0:07:26.8 Jordan: Yeah, right, right. And usually a bad dream, like you wake up, and at least for me, there’s a relief, it’s like, Oh good. That was a dream. Thank goodness, I’m happier within two minutes because it’s like… Just a dream. That’s funny though. I have, I’ve seen some TikToks, usually the gender roles are reversed on that one, but it’s like…


0:07:52.4 Jordan: Where the girl is the one getting upset at the guy cheating…


0:07:54.9 Michael: Yeah, she’s just pissed at him. It was a dream. Well, you’ll get back on the mats tomorrow.


0:08:07.1 Jordan: Hopefully it’s been a rough week for training. I’ve only been able to train once this week in jiu-jitsu… But it’s alright. My overall training is going great, I did sprint work out last night.


0:08:15.6 Michael: Nice.


0:08:16.1 Jordan: Dude, so Viada’s having me do breath holds, and I know you’ve done it a couple of times with me, I told you… I think in the last pod, I said I held it for…


0:08:23.3 Michael: Two pods ago, we were talking about your new record after you cut me, we used to do breath holds together, but then you cut me out for about a solid 10 to 14 weeks and you did ’em on your own and got ahead. Which I respect.


0:08:35.0 Jordan: Don’t even… I can’t wait until the videos of these podcasts can be released and people can actually see the facial expressions.


0:08:42.4 Michael: Hey. I didn’t get a phone call. I wanted to breath hold but… Continue, he’s been having to do the breath holds…


0:08:49.1 Jordan: So he started having me do the breath holds. So half of them are regular. So yesterday’s breath holds, the regular ones were 65 seconds, so a minute and five-second breath hold followed by 50 seconds of rest, then a minute five breath hold followed by 40 seconds of rest, then a minute and five breath hold followed by 20 seconds of rest and that was just the breath holds, but then in the last three weeks, he’s started programming breath holds while I do something, so he’s having me do breath holds while I do a plank. And oh my God, it is so much harder, which makes sense, like you’re using up oxygen and you’re stressing your body, which makes it more difficult, but… Holy shit. So yesterday, after the regular breath holds, it was 45-second breath holds in a plank position. And then, so that was two sets of that and then one set of a 30-second breath hold in a deep squat position and like man, and the deep squat position is hard because your diaphragm is compressed as you take that breath in, so you’re not able to get in as much, and then you have to hold yourself in that deep squat, but the planks are the worst, like holding yourself in a plank while you’re holding your breath is just devastating.


0:10:00.8 Michael: You’re on some real progressive overload of breath work right now.


0:10:04.3 Jordan: Oh, yeah. Yeah big time.


0:10:04.8 Michael: Your intensity is increasing, your exercise selection is getting more difficult, your total volume’s increasing, you’re really taking things to another level…


0:10:15.0 Jordan: I’m trying man. Yeah and I don’t even really know what the benefits are. Coach said do these, Alex said that the main purpose is… It’s interesting, so when I held it for the two minutes, two seconds, I think for the last 30 seconds, I really started to have a panic response that I hadn’t really had before. And he was like, that’s the goal. The goal is to get to a point where if you aren’t able to breathe for a certain time, you’re just much more relaxed because breathing is essentially fundamentally the most human thing, it’s the one thing we need to do every second in order to survive, and when you’re not able to breathe. It’s very easy to panic. Like very quickly panic as soon as your breath gets taken away, and he’s like the main purposes to be able to control your state of mind and control your fear or that initial panic response while you’re not able to breathe even if you’re the one who’s holding your breath, even if you’re the one choosing to hold your breath, it’s still… It will help dull that immediate gut instinct, that fear response, and so the last 30 seconds I kept thinking, There’s no way I can hold on for five more seconds.


0:11:25.8 Jordan: There’s no way I can hold on for five more seconds. But I was just trying to relax and relax and relax, and I was able to go literally 30 more seconds when I thought I couldn’t even do five and…


0:11:36.5 Michael: That’s crazy.


0:11:39.1 Jordan: Yeah, it’s insane, and he’s saying this is a lot of training that deep divers will do and scuba divers will do, so that they can hold their breath for longer when they’re under water, But… Yeah. Just very interesting.


0:11:47.3 Michael: Was your over two minutes, like a PR test or was hitting two minutes your target…


0:11:56.0 Jordan: No, it was a test. It was a PR test, and then he bases the new percent… He literally does percentages, he does the percentage of the total time, and just like we do percentages with lifting weights, he does percentages of that for my breath holds.


0:12:06.8 Michael: Very cool. Good for you, man. Killing It, but training overall has been going well. Good for you, man.


0:12:14.8 Jordan: Good for you, brother.


0:12:17.0 Michael: Popcorn looks really good. [laughter]


0:12:20.5 Jordan: You wanna tell that story? That’s a good story, yeah tell that story.


0:12:22.9 Michael: Nah, we’ve had enough stories today.


0:12:25.8 Jordan: One more, everyone loves a good story.


0:12:26.9 Michael: I know, and that story one day will be amazing, but it’s just not the time, and we have so many good things on this list, and I as an introvert, have a limited capacity, we have a call this afternoon with a mentorship challenge winner. I wanna be pretty fresh for that to give maximum value, we can’t just be ripping like hour and a half pods. And so we gotta get into this a little bit of a list we got going.


0:12:51.3 Jordan: I will save the story for later then, it’s a…


0:12:53.7 Michael: I know.


0:12:54.0 Jordan: Alright, you know what? Here’s what would be great, for everyone listening, if you wanna hear this popcorn story, which is… It’s a great story, leave a review…


0:13:02.0 Michael: If I get…


0:13:03.9 Jordan: No, no, no, no DMs, just leave a five-star review on the podcast and just mention, “I wanna hear the popcorn story,” so go to leave a review, five-star review obviously, and just say, “and I wanna hear the popcorn story” in those reviews.


0:13:16.8 Michael: You know what’d even funnier, if they just worked the word popcorn casually into a normal review. I don’t wanna over-hype this popcorn story, so we’ll look for the word popcorn in these reviews.


0:13:28.7 Jordan: Yeah, just be like, “sitting here eating some popcorn and loving this podcast.” [laughter] And then when people look through the reviews they are gonna be like, “Why are so many people talking about popcorn… “


0:13:41.0 Michael: “These guys are strange.” [laughter]


0:13:43.0 Jordan: That would actually be super funny. Alright, what do we got on board, Michael?


0:13:45.8 Michael: Well, we still are not getting… I have a bunch of just random things. First of all, you know how…


0:13:53.2 Jordan: So we can’t talk about the popcorn story, but we’re just gonna do these random things?


0:13:57.0 Michael: Correct, correct. [laughter] But if if we get enough reviews, we’ll release the popcorn story. First of all, you know how I always say I’m gonna do something, and then the next week, I have just not quitted or…


0:14:08.6 Jordan: Oh, yes.


0:14:08.9 Michael: So, remember when I made this proclamation last week that I had seen the light on the lack of necessity for post-workout protein and calories in certain situations?


0:14:22.1 Jordan: Yeah.


0:14:22.8 Michael: That lasted for one day. [laughter] One day, and I’m back and I just want everyone to know, especially my bros, male and female bros alike, who get their protein sometimes with their fast digesting carbs immediately post work out, then I’m sorry that I left you for 36 to 48 hours and that I’m fully back.


0:14:45.5 Jordan: Well, good, I’m glad you’re back. [laughter]


0:14:49.6 Michael: In all seriousness, if I was cutting, I would continue that strategy of keeping a four to five-hour window to keep more calories for later in the day, but I just want to get more food in, and so increasing frequency is the play. What are you doing there with your eyes Jordan? Are your eyes okay?


0:15:10.7 Jordan: So I woke up this morning in the scab ripped off my eye again.


0:15:14.9 Michael: No way.


0:15:16.0 Jordan: Yeah, scab ripped off my eye again, and for everyone who doesn’t know, I gotta… Someone scratched my eye in jiu-jitsu eight months ago, and it was an awful injury, and then every once in a while, the scab might rip off and then I’m in excruciating pain, so they gave me these pain drops for it, but they scared the shit out of me with these pain drops because they were like, “You cannot use these too much, because if you use these too much, there’s actually cases in which people’s eyes have melted.” In which the color of their eye like melts off and the doctor said this.


0:15:52.2 Michael: Did the doctor give you… Okay, so it’s like, “Well, and here’s your prescribed dosage so your eyes don’t melt off”


0:15:57.8 Jordan: Yeah, they’re like, “Don’t use it more than this… “But still, I’m just checking to make sure that I can still see out of the eye. [laughter]


0:16:05.4 Michael: That’s how interested Jordan is in protein timing, post-work that he started blinking one eye at a time, completely zoned out.


0:16:15.7 Jordan: And then I just said “Good job, brother.” [laughter]


0:16:17.1 Michael: “Good job, I’m so happy for you.” Okay, I got something for you, Jordan.


0:16:25.3 Jordan: What’s up?


0:16:26.9 Michael: Don’t you find it interesting as someone who is very in touch with the cultural zeitgeist and human behavior, and culture and society at large, like you are, the shift away from hard work being cool over the last five to nine years. I brought this up to you, I think it was from watching Gary operate at VeeCon and just go for 19 hours a day and consuming a little bit of his content and then thinking of other people too. Just that the behavior patterns haven’t changed, the benefits of hard work, the actions that so many of these people are taking, haven’t changed, but hard work got a bad rap for whatever reason in culture, and so even the people who I know that work incredibly hard, don’t talk about the fact that they work incredibly hard because it gets shit on. It in content. And from society at large, I don’t know what the question is. Just an observation, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.


0:17:35.0 Jordan: Yeah, well it’s been interesting to see Gary’s content change. We were speaking about that, how Gary used to talk about just fucking grind, just work, like stop watching Lost. Like, go and work, right. And that was a huge piece of his content, but Gary is the ultimate in terms of aware of overall public opinion and what people think and what they’re interested in, what they like, what they don’t like, and to see him shift away from that… And it’s been interesting, ’cause even with Gary, he’s very smart with how he frames it though ’cause with Gary, he doesn’t… It’s not like he says it’s bad. Like many people do. He just says, Do what makes you happy, right? So, with Gary’s like, if you wanna work hard, work hard. If you wanna grind, grind. If you don’t, don’t, do this. So, I think it’s been interesting. I think a lot of the distaste for that grind mindset, which to be frank, I sort of developed that as well, just for me personally, was… I don’t even know where I’m going with that. No.


0:18:42.2 Michael: You still work harder than 90… Even in your more toned down days, we’re not 2017-2018 more. We’re 2022, you have way more leisure, more relaxation, more shows, more downtime, you still work harder than 98% plus of people.


0:19:00.2 Jordan: Yeah, I still do a lot. Maybe it was just the messaging, maybe it was just the way that messaging was packaged with just… I think people maybe had a certain distaste for how that type of message was being portrayed as like, “Oh. Just grind, grind make more money” it was almost very superficial, sort of like maybe… In the same way, people have gotten sort of tired of the… Just get a six pack. The stuff that we were interested in when you were younger is like do whatever you like, almost this superficial layer where it’s like, Alright, well have… I don’t even know where I’m fully going with it, but it might just be less about…


0:19:43.3 Michael: Yeah, We’re just fleshing out thoughts.


0:19:43.5 Jordan: Less about the actual work and more about people being tired of the way that messaging is packaged, ’cause it’s often done with people who are on a fucking private jet, and we don’t even know if it’s their private jet or they’re in front a Lamborghini or whatever it is. And they’re throwing dollar bills around and they’re just… ’cause I think it’s the way the messaging has been packaged and how it’s been… I think it’s one of the… For example, with Gary’s content, I always go back to Gary with this thing, but people love when he does the garage selling stuff. His garage selling content, people love it and I really enjoy it, and I think one of the reasons he’s working hard when he does the garage selling. That’s not easy work. He wakes up early, he goes to all these different garage sales and people enjoy it for many reasons at least of which it’s fun content to watch. To watch this multi-millionaire going to garage sales to try and make a quick buck.


0:20:39.5 Jordan: But yeah, I think the reason that type of content, even though it is still like, he’s still saying, “Hey, go grind, go work, you wanna make an extra 1200 bucks this weekend, go work, go to the garage sales, the way it’s packaged there is differently. You can see that he loves it and that he’s enjoying it as opposed to the… And he’s not going there and being like, “Look, I’m gonna this money to buy a watch or to buy new shoes.” He’s like, “No, this money can actually change your life, this money could help you pay rent, this money can help you pay medical bills, this money is actually… Could be really important for so many reasons.” And I think that Gary is just a genius, he took that same content and re-packaged it with a different messaging so that people could be like, I still gotta work really hard, but instead of this being for superficial stuff, this is actually for stuff that matters.


0:21:29.0 Michael: That’s an interesting take, especially with all the fake stuff, the rented Ferraris, getting a picture in front of a plane that’s not yours, that whole fake rich, deceitful line and then pay… You need to work hard if you want this, by the way join my 10K a month, blah, blah, blah.


0:21:47.0 Jordan: Exactly, yeah.


0:21:48.3 Michael: Yeah, I fully agree with that. I actually think we can set that in its own little area and still discuss outside of the messaging, like good messaging, bad messaging, however you wanna frame it. I still think that we’re in a place where hard work is demonized by most people, and here’s what I re-learned in the last 24 hours.


0:22:18.1 Jordan: Okay.


0:22:19.0 Michael: Something that I knew, but I forgot. So, if we use Gary’s example of like… Now, he would say, I don’t care if you watch Lost, if you wanna watch Lost all day, if that’s what you wanna do, if that’s what truly makes you happy, do that. But what he was saying was, If you say you want to build a business and you haven’t done anything, you need to start working to build that business rather than sitting around and watching eight hours of Lost and then pretending you’re working… You need to work hard to do it, but he would also say, If it makes you happy to sit around and watch TV all day, every day, then you should do that. No one’s actually hears the takeaway. The observation I had… No one’s actually happy not working hard, ever. I’m blanking on the author’s name just because I can’t pronounce it, maybe you’ll know it. The guy who wrote Flow.


0:23:14.0 Jordan: No clue.


0:23:15.8 Michael: Nicolai Csiksze… Some… I’m butchering it (Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi), but classic book, basically, the concept is that all of our happiness and enjoyment comes through being in a flow state. From having goals, from working hard on those goals, even though it’s hard for a writer, it’s really hard to put your butt in the chair and write for three straight hours. But how good does it feel at the end of the day, if you fought through that resistance, sat in the chair, worked hard, got a few pages down, like how do you feel after doing that, you feel satisfied. You feel a sense of accomplishment, you feel pride, you feel like these positive emotions, even though it was hard to do that and hard to get into that flow state. And it’s hard work, but if you just went with your feeling and this do what makes you happy, it’s like, “Well, if I just jerked off for three straight hours, that would be a lot more pleasurable and feel a lot better, literally [laughter], than sitting down and working hard on this project.” But when you’re done with that, and it doesn’t have to be like… It could just be watch a movie instead of work, whatever, but if you do that, after you do that enjoyable thing, you don’t have the same sense of purpose, same sense of accomplishment, same… These positive emotions that make up a life, and of course, there should be time for relaxation.


0:24:44.9 Michael: I just think that we, as a culture, highlighted the rare instances of people who worked 90 hours a week, burnt themselves out and became depressed as a result. That’s an anomaly, almost nobody. One in 10,000 actually worked 90 hours a week. It’s very rare to work, actually work 90 hours a week, but were cherry-picking these instances and being like, “See, hustle culture, hustle… ” People who said hustle made people do this and now they’re depressed because they worked too hard and they burnt themselves out, it’s like. No, yes, that happened to some people, I’m sure, but the majority of people just don’t work hard. Myself included for many years, [laughter] by the way, I’m at the top of this list, and I can speak from personal experience that when I work hard on meaningful things in a space I enjoy, the fitness industry, helping people to get healthy or feel better, look better, like a meaningful goal. When I work hard at that, I’m happier and feel better than when I don’t work hard at that, so I just think it’s interesting that we are seemingly in a place where hard work is now taboo. Even though all the winners are still working as hard as they ever did.


0:26:02.5 Jordan: Yeah.


0:26:02.6 Michael: It’s almost like do what I… Watch my actions rather than watch my words, if you really wanna learn from people.


0:26:10.1 Jordan: Yeah, yeah, it’s a good point and you actually brought up an interesting aspect as well. I think most people associate work with something they don’t like, right? Most people associate work with… Well, you don’t like it, so when they hear someone saying, “You’ve gotta work hard.” they think you have to suffer through it, it’s something that you don’t enjoy. You’re working in an office doing a job that you hate, but you’ve still gotta work 90 hours a week type of a thing. But the point that you brought up was, I actually really enjoy my work, I enjoy helping people, I enjoy the end result of this, I can see the impact it’s having on people. So that hard work is worth it for so many reasons, not least of which yeah, I feel proud of myself, but also because I know I’m helping people as a result of it. And I think… In the same way, I always found this interesting when I was traveling with Gary all the time, and people would see me on planes, they would say things like, “Oh, it must be so nice to go to all these places,” da da da da dah.




0:27:03.1 Jordan: ‘Cause people associate with going on a plane with vacation, right? They see someone on a plane… Oh, a vacation, oh, a vacation. It’s like, “No, this isn’t fucking vacation. Wherever we go, I’m gonna be in a hotel room doing work, and then from the hotel room, I’m gonna go to the hotel gym, coach Gary, then I’m gonna go to the plane, and I’m gonna get back on another plane and go somewhere else and repeat that. There is no sight-seeing, there is no going to the beach, there is no vacation at all… At all, that’s not how it works.” And so people who travel a lot for work, they understand that, but people who only get on a plane a couple of times a year for vacation, they think, okay, cool, plane, vacation. I think that’s what people think of when they hear the word work, or when people hear the word strength training, the thing that comes in their mind is a body builder, and when they hear strength training, oh, body builder, I don’t wanna look Arnold type of a thing. “Alright, fucking relax, you’re not gonna look like Arnold.” So people hear work, they hear hustle, they think, oh, you’re just suffering, you don’t even enjoy it.


0:27:53.0 Jordan: It’s like, no. That’s actually why it’s important for you to find something that you do love, that you do enjoy. Because now… That’s why Gary does the garage sales, ’cause he loves garage, he loves selling cards, he loves… He loves that stuff, so to him, it’s work, but he really enjoys it. Whereas the person who’s thinking they have to grind for 90 hours a week at a job they hate, it’s like no. You might wanna work really hard so you can get to a point where you don’t need to work at that job anymore, that might be worth it. But yeah, it is very interesting. And then for the people who are like, “Oh, hustle culture, you’re making people work.” No, shut up, no one’s making you do anything. If you wanna sit at home and jerk off all day, that’s your prerogative, if you wanna do that, it’s gonna be super uncomfortable after a little while and I don’t recommend it.




0:28:39.7 Jordan: No one’s…


0:28:39.9 Michael: Yeah.


0:28:40.6 Jordan: Making you do anything. Everyone loves to blame other people, like, “Oh, you’re making me do this.” No, I’m not, no one’s fucking making you do anything. You’re being… You’re influencing yourself based off of stuff that you see online and then you decide to do it, don’t blame it on other people.


0:28:53.5 Michael: Yeah. That’s another separate great point. I agree. When you mention… This actually bleeds into one of our questions that we have from a coach about whether or not he should quit his kind of full-time job to go all in on his online coaching business. But you mentioned enjoying the hard work, or enjoying the work you’re doing. I do think that people who enjoy their work… I’m one of them, you’re one… I consider us very fortunate that we…


0:29:29.3 Jordan: Yeah.


0:29:29.6 Michael: That we’ve found this. There’s a degree of fortune we’ll call it, I feel very fortunate. I think you can enjoy work relative to other work. I still think even if you like what you do, and especially if you don’t have a boss, the temptation to go do X thing, that’s just like an immediate dopamine, an immediate… Watch a movie, eat this thing, relax, scroll, whatever it is, that is always right there. And that is always easier and that always feels better in the short term than doing the work. Sure sometimes you’re just really in the mood to do a Q&A, but I’m sure you do… I’m sure there are days where you’re like, I got three podcasts today, I got four podcasts today, like… I’m sure there are days where you’re like, I’m fired up to talk, like I’m in a real chatty mood. I’m sure there are other days where you’re like, “I kind of wish I could just chill today, but I have these four back to back on the calendar, I’m gonna do it.” and you feel good and satisfied after. But it’s not like… When people say you should enjoy your work, you’re enjoying your work relative to other types of work.


0:30:40.6 Jordan: Yeah.


0:30:42.2 Michael: I love what I do relative to being an accountant, but it’s still like… There’s still a necessary degree of effort and focus and attention that you have to put forth to work hard, it’s still not that easy.


0:30:55.6 Jordan: Correct. That’s why I don’t like the phrase, “If you love what you do, you’ll never work a day in your life.” That’s false. I think if you love what you’ll do, you’ll work harder than everyone else, and it will be worth it, that’s the difference. It’s not that you’re not working, you’re working, you’re working harder, but it’s worth it because you actually enjoy it relative to something else. And oftentimes, I think when you look at workplace happiness, and there’s actually a significant amount of research on this, the people who are the happiest in the workplace are the people who can see the end result of their work. So if you have someone who’s just doing spreadsheets or whatever it is they’re… Whatever… They’re doing something they can’t. They can’t see how their work is impacting other people, they’re far less likely to be happy. But when you have someone whose job they can directly see the impact it’s making on people, they are far more likely to at least enjoy it, if not actually love that more. But when you love your work more, it just means that you’re willing to work harder because the reward is so much greater. It’s not necessarily…


0:31:52.9 Jordan: ‘Cause you’re not actually working, of course, it’s super hard, I think. Even when I work out, I love working out, and I love what it can do for me, but when I’m in the middle of a really hard set and it’s hurting, like it’s burning, I hate it. I’m not like, “Oh, yeah, fucking love this.” Like… No, I’m like, “Oh, this sucks, and I want to quit.” In my mind, I’m like, I want to stop, but then I’m like, no, I have to keep working. ‘Cause the benefits come in these last few reps when it’s the most painful, the most difficult, I want to stop in that short-term moment, but I push through. That’s sort of a great metaphor for life in general, for work in general, when you don’t want… You just keep on going. Even… And especially when it’s uncomfortable, ’cause that little bit extra, that little bit extra work, that’s when progress is made, that’s when you get ahead of the competition, that’s when you build yourself better.




0:32:43.1 Michael: Hard work, easy life. Easy work, hard life.


0:32:46.5 Jordan: Yeah, that’s right.


0:32:47.6 Michael: Oh, man, I’m so fired up. Let’s…


0:32:51.2 Jordan: Clip that.




0:32:51.9 Michael: I’m gonna read this question.




0:32:53.2 Michael: Yeah. Clip.


0:32:56.3 Jordan: When are we getting the video pods?


0:33:00.4 Michael: Look, it’s been a busy month.




0:33:06.9 Michael: Soon.


0:33:07.0 Jordan: What are we gonna do? Are we gonna put them on YouTube? Is that what we’re gonna do?


0:33:10.6 Michael: We’re gonna put them on YouTube. I think we can actually put the video… The video will go on Spotify…


0:33:18.3 Jordan: Oh nice.


0:33:20.3 Michael: As well as the audio. We’re also going to have a clips channel. So we’ll have one or two, probably two pre-planned out questions per episode, and… Yeah man, we’re just making moves slowly.


0:33:32.4 Jordan: Grinding. [laughter] Grind. I’m grinding.


0:33:37.6 Michael: [laughter] Oh, that’s what I… I have been cycling back through these motivational tracks from seven, eight, nine, 10, 11 years ago while I work out, and I love them. I love listening to Eric Thomas, circa 2011, like just rant and rave. And some of it’s really ridiculous, I didn’t even remember how ridiculous this was. I used to listen to this when I was an accountant with my friend, I’m not gonna name him, but my friend who was an accountant with me and we were planning on quitting and like really… And Eric Thomas has a phrase where he’s like, something, something if you… “Sleep is for people who are broke, if you’re sleeping, you don’t want your dreams.”




0:34:14.5 Michael: Like, “You need to stay awake for days in a row.” [chuckle] It’s like ridiculous advice, but just listening to it. It has a degree of entertainment on top of the energy in that. Yeah.


0:34:29.7 Jordan: Yeah. [laughter]


0:34:29.8 Michael: Alright, there’s a lot here, so I’m going to be jumping around just slightly, but basically who we have here is a coach who has an online coaching business, and he also works a normal job as well, who wrote in with a podcast question. And so he said, what he’s doing right now, He’s working super hard, he’s writing a weekly article for his website, he is doing a weekly podcast, he’s posting three to four times a day on social media, across accounts or across platforms, I assume, jumping into DMs, thanking people, offering support for people who reach out to him. And he right now has a coaching roster between 14 and 15 clients.


0:35:21.1 Jordan: Killing it.


0:35:25.7 Michael: Absolutely killing it. He’s just questioning whether or not he’s doing the right things, whether or not he’s on the right path. He really wants to make his coaching business sustainable for the long term. And he went on to say, “Really, as time goes on, I realized how much passion I have wrapped up in this business and how much passion I lack for my day job. It gets harder and harder to justify all the time he’s spending at that day job when he could be allocating it to his business. And I don’t know, maybe I’m being too hard on myself. Maybe I’m being impatient. I really feel like I’m busting my butt. And I just want to make sure it pays off in the long run. Yeah, thank you for your help. Thank you for considering my question.” So what we have here is… Basically, should I quit my job to go all-in on my coaching business given this set of facts, and if not, should I do anything differently than what I’m doing now? What do we think?


0:36:26.2 Jordan: So, man, it’s a great question. Already they’re doing such an amazing job. Right? He’s crushing it. He’s posting every day on social media, he’s writing articles, doing podcasts, reaching out to people. I would say If this… Let’s just say for the sake of progression throughout this process. Let’s say this guy did not have any clients, or maybe he had like two clients, and wasn’t really sure like, should I get a website? How often should I be posting? Let’s say he wasn’t where he was now, I would say, stay in your job. Without question, stay in your job. Essentially do what this guy has done. Like, start doing… Posting every day, getting an article done, getting your podcast done, reaching out to people, work on the side, build your business until you get to a point in which you feel comfortable financially and you realize you don’t need this job anymore, and actually potentially staying at this job is preventing you from being able to grow your own business to where it could be.


0:37:32.5 Jordan: So I would say he’s right at that breaking point where it’s like, now the decision is yours, and there’s no right or wrong here, but you have to make that decision for yourself. So he’s at the point now where it’s like, he could stay in his job and he could still continue to grow his business, he could take on maybe a few more clients, he could build improved systems, he could grow his social media, while still staying at this job, or he could leave his job and spend way more time building his business. Now, based on everything this guy has said, there’s not a doubt in my mind that if he decided to leave his job, he would crush it. Like all of that extra time that he would have to make more content, to interact with more people, to take on more clients without overloading himself, there’s no doubt in my mind, like this guy is set. He’s essentially set himself up for life realistically. And that’s not exaggerating. This guy has already set himself up for life to have a sustainable income through online fitness coaching.


0:38:34.0 Jordan: There’s no question about it. Had he said, “I really love my day job,” I would say, “Then don’t give it up. If you really enjoy it, you love the interaction, you love what you’re doing, then go for it. Stay there and do both at the same time. It’s actually sort of nice to have two completely different jobs that you enjoy both equally. But if it’s getting harder to justify and you don’t really enjoy it anymore, and all you’re thinking about is your own business that you could build, and you are financially stable, then I would say, leave. Leave, just go all in. If worst comes to worst, you can go back and get another job. If you’re not financially stable yet, ’cause I don’t… It doesn’t say anything if he has kids, a partner, any of that stuff, like mortgage to pay, I don’t know. If he’s a 24-year-old single guy versus a 42-year-old adult with four kids, you don’t know, but financial stability is a critical component of this, and so with that in mind, as long as you’re financially stable based on everything that he said, I say leave and go all in at this point.


0:39:43.0 Michael: I love it. And to make our answer just more applicable to a wider audience, whether, like Jordan mentioned, 24 and single, 42 and with a family, the further along you are, or let’s say the more responsibility you have, the bigger cushion you need. Meaning, if you’re 24 single, hungry, willing to sleep on a mattress and eat peanut butter and oatmeal for the next two years, then you can quit your job with six months of runway, let’s say. And, when I say six months of runway, I mean, map out your living expenses, all of them, rent, insurance, car payment, whatever… Groceries, cellphone bill, everything. Map it out honestly, and then per month multiply by six, that’s probably the bottom. Ideally, you should have at least a year of living expenses saved up before you quit to go all in. I mean, this is also a different situation because this individual has 15 online coaching clients, so he’s already bringing in money from that. With a family, with more responsibility, it depends on your appetite for risk, but three years of living expenses is probably a good baseline if you have a family, if you have children, if you have people depending on you.


0:41:04.0 Michael: It’s always important to outline worst case scenarios or back-up plans, and this is another somewhat conservative approach, but if you quit your job, can you go back? Would you have the option to go back in a year or go back in two years if you wanted to, or if for some reason you had to? I know that in this situation, that’s… With this individual, that’s not likely, or I should say, near impossible, but it’s something that in general, I would consider when making this decision. That worst case scenario that, “if I have to go back, can I?”


0:41:48.5 Michael: What you said Jordan, you hit the nail on the head is, freeing… Well, one, not liking your day job and enjoying coaching, being passionate about coaching. Two, all of the time you’re going to free up by quitting your job and giving you that extra time to work on your business. Make it… I don’t wanna say a no-brainer, but make the scales tilt heavily towards, “Yes. Now is the time to take the leap.” Yeah, those are my thoughts. Because he’s doing everything right when it comes to content, when it comes to coaching, when it comes to the way that he’s building. When you’re coming up, the ebbs and flows of clients, is scary. Like going from 15 to 10, which could very very likely happen in the next few months, regardless of output, is terrifying, but that’s the…


0:42:45.8 Michael: You know… If you picture the scale weight chart as you lose fat for 60 days, and you see the spikes and you see the dips, and you see the whooshes, and you see the up, picked up four clients in one week, or three people cancel in a day. What the heck? How does that even happen? There’s going to be that variance, but with what he is doing right now, he’s going to continue to have an upward trajectory and having that extra time, and… And I can speak from this on personal experience, from quitting my job, the fire under your ass, the feeling of burning the boats, and I left my accounting job on bad terms with people. Like, really to play it safe, be smart, be honest, be upfront, be… Don’t make a blog post blasting the industry because you just have this fire in you/chip on your shoulder, anger… Don’t do that, be smart about it.


0:43:44.6 Michael: But the feeling of burning the boats and knowing there’s no turning back, like we’re gonna go take this beach and take this… Take these people over, that’s a real evolutionary, anthropological deep-seated trait that will drive you. So know that when you quit and it’s do or die, and you have to survive, and you’re in the ring, and it’s go time, and you have a family to support, you’re gonna feel different than you’ve ever felt, and that just gives me even more confidence in making the decision to quit.


0:44:20.0 Jordan: Yeah, agreed, completely. And I think it is worth discussing Parkinson’s Law, you know, the idea that the more time you have to do something, the time… Work expands to fill the alloted time. I think that is more relevant at the beginning of someone’s job, like for the person who doesn’t have an online business yet, they don’t have any clients, ’cause that person… It is really interesting when you’re just starting out, you don’t need that much time to do things. If you don’t have clients to work with, you’re gonna make some content and it’s not gonna take up a full-time job’s worth. You don’t need that much time in order to build something on the side. When I… Like you built your… The beginning of yours on the side, while you were working full-time, I was in school, well, I was working a couple of jobs, and in school, I was able to start the foundation of my business.


0:45:13.3 Michael: Just for the record, I didn’t, but…


0:45:15.6 Jordan: Okay. Alright.


0:45:16.2 Michael: Yeah.


0:45:17.4 Jordan: But you don’t need that much… But you were also playing poker professionally when you were doing it. You had a lot of other things, you had other forms of income while you were doing it.


0:45:26.2 Michael: Yes, yeah, I agree. I wasn’t making stuff for 12 hours a day. Absolutely.


0:45:32.2 Jordan: Right. And so, I think in that situation, it makes sense to stay busy by having your other job as well, ’cause you also get income, but once you’re at this guy’s point where he’s so busy, he’s essentially doing two full-time jobs, it’s like, Alright, now Parkinson’s law doesn’t really come into effect because you literally don’t have enough time between kids, between your full-time job, between your own personal business, all that stuff, like, Alright, you’ve gotta leave so you can dedicate more time to it.


0:46:03.0 Michael: Yes. And there are limitations… That law is a cool theory and thing to think about, and I would say motivator to get more work done in a shorter amount of time, but, you know… 2017 Jordan has to do three Instagram posts a day. Okay, we’re gonna Parkinson’s Law him, and he has 20 minutes a day to work. It’s like, “No, you wouldn’t see the same result.”


0:46:24.3 Jordan: Correct. Exactly. Yeah.


0:46:25.3 Michael: There’s limits to this.


0:46:28.0 Jordan: Especially when I was spending three hours writing an Instagram caption that I was worried people were gonna hate me for…




0:46:34.7 Jordan: Remember that? Remember when I wrote the caption…


0:46:34.8 Michael: Was that the pubes?


0:46:36.0 Jordan: That was the pubes story. Yeah, people loved that story.


0:46:38.6 Michael: Yeah, yeah.


0:46:40.4 Jordan: Yeah. I’ll never forget that. I took three hours to write that caption, probably the best caption I’ve ever written, some of the best writing I’ve ever done, and I was so nervous to post that. I thought people were just gonna unfollow me, and hate me that I wrote about my buddy burning his pubes, and it turned out that it was everyone’s favorite post.


0:46:56.3 Michael: They loved it. In the booth of Panera.


0:47:00.6 Jordan: Man, those were the days.


0:47:01.0 Michael: Those were the days.


0:47:03.4 Jordan: We got anything else?


0:47:05.0 Michael: You know, I think that’s a good place to wrap this one…


0:47:06.9 Jordan: Well, yeah… Do you have to get off? ’cause I have something, if you wanna talk about it, or do you have to get off?


0:47:11.4 Michael: I don’t have to get off. We can go a few more minutes.


0:47:14.8 Jordan: Okay, alright, cool. ‘Cause I… So my buddy Josh Smith, he’s a psychologist, I had him on my podcast. He’s awesome, he’s absolutely amazing. And he started doing Instagram posts, he’s a psychologist, he’s not in the fitness industry, he’s actually gonna be speaking at the Inner Circle retreat, a really cool guy. And after the podcast, he started posting on Instagram, ’cause he… I was like, “Listen, you should do this, I think people really enjoy your work, you should start posting.” And he just hit 600 followers, which he’s super excited about, and he’s going off and yesterday, he sent me a video that he made, and he’s like… I literally have the text up right now, he’s like, “I’m really torn about this video I made, I think it’s really hilarious, but my friends are giving me mixed reviews on it. They all say it’s funny, but a bunch say it’s way too off-brand for me. I’m so tempted to put it on Instagram, but I’m just not sure… ” He goes, Oh yeah, “but I’m just not really sure.” And so I watched the video, and it was actually really funny. It was basically, I think he titled it something to the effect of, “An Honest no Bullshit Guided Meditation.”


0:48:21.2 Jordan: And it was really funny because, you know in a guided meditation, they’re like, “Alright, sit down, breathe.” And in his guided meditation was like, “Alright, sit down, or if you’re walking, keep walking. If you’re driving… Cool, if you’re doing 10 other things, and this is the only time you’ve got today to do this… Cool, that’s cool too. If you wanna tell this guy to shut the fuck up, feel free to turn me off… That’s fine.” And he just went on this whole thing, like a guided meditation, but like an honest, no BS one like it’s a real person.


0:48:51.7 Michael: Mm-hmm.


0:48:52.8 Jordan: And I was like, “Man, absolutely post it. It’s so good. And if it doesn’t do well. Cool. Who cares? I do that all the time.” And he goes… He goes, “I don’t think I’ve put up anything controversial, or that could offend someone. I just don’t wanna mess with that.” And I said, “Stop being such a pussy, and post it.”




0:49:10.1 Jordan: And he laughed. He was like, “Ha ha ha.” I was like, “If anyone tells you… If anyone gives you shit just tell them to fuck off.” And he’s like, “I’m not sure I have a fuck-off gear.”


0:49:17.0 Jordan: And I’ve known him since I was a kid, like, I was 16. He was one of my chaperones to… On my first trip to Israel, and I remember there was a woman, an older woman on the trip with us, who was the lead chaperone, and apparently she was just doing shit that was just not appropriate at all, and I was like, “Don’t you remember Deena from our trip with the temple? You definitely have a fuck off gear.” He’s like, “Oh my God, I forgot about that… ” ’cause he just went off on this woman who was being completely inappropriate with the kids… And he goes, “Alright, I’m posting it. I’m freaking out… Da da da.”


0:49:49.3 Jordan: And then this morning he texted me, he’s like, “You’re right, I’m psyched. I did it, I should just trust my gut, and the reason I wanted to share this just because, number one, that story I just told about the post I was most nervous to make about my buddy burning his pubes, turned out to be one of the best posts I’ve ever made. People love that story. And this guy, he doesn’t have a huge audience, but he still, he has that fear, that worry about posting something that he’s actually really passionate about and excited about, but because his friends were like, “It’s sort of off-brand for you… “


0:50:18.7 Jordan: I think one of the best pieces of business advice I ever got is from a book… What’s the name of this book? I think it’s called “Scientific Advertising” One sec. Yeah, it’s called… Yeah, “Scientific Advertising” by Claude Hopkins, one of the best books I’ve ever read. It’s actually where I got the idea… One of the ideas, one of the places I got the idea for making infographics. It’s like an old old, old, old book, sort of like, “How to Win Friends and Influence People” is an old book, this is the same type of book, in that it’s written years, and years, and years, and years ago, but it still stands the test of time in terms of marketing and branding and stuff, and one of the best pieces of advice in that book was basically to the effect of, “Do not take your friend’s or family’s advice on your business, at all.” Like, they have no idea what the fuck they’re talking about, even though their intent is great and they love you, he’s like, “Oftentimes, their advice is clouded, because they love you. So, do not take their advice, listen to your gut, and if you have something that you’re passionate about, you wanna post, it’s okay to feel nervous about it, but just post it.”


0:51:21.1 Michael: I love all of the above. There’s… Not only should you ignore their advice because their incentives are misaligned with yours, similar to like… A parent wants their child to be safe, but if the child is chasing greatness, or the teenager, or the 20-year-old, or the 25-year-old, they’re going to make different decisions. The parent wants them to take the safe and secure route, whereas the young and hungry and ambitious child wants something different than what the parent wants for the kid.


0:51:54.9 Michael: You… In addition to that, not only is making content a form of marketing for a business, for anyone who makes content, we’re creating something, there’s an element of art, there’s an element of human expression, and that comes from inside. Like when you say, “Trust your gut.” like, it comes from your gut, it comes from that place. And so when you make something, whether you’re nervous about it or not, but it came from an honest place inside of you, and people close to you, are like… “I don’t know… I don’t… ” like, that turns on the green light for me like, “Okay, now I have to post it. Now, I have to do it.”


0:52:39.0 Michael: There’s a book called “Ignore Everybody.” It’s like a very short, very simple… I think it’s almost like a picture book, if I remember right.




0:52:47.1 Michael: I think it was Hugh MacLeod, I believe is the author of that, but I remember reading that in 2013 and just like, “Oh yeah, I’m on to something.” Like, people who were confused, people who knew me in life, people who were like, “What are you doing, this doesn’t make sense… ” it’s like, I was literally just pouring out what was in my soul on the internet, and that’s how you develop the most depth with people, and it’s just great art as honest expression. And so the fact that that came from that place for him, good for him for posting it, and great advice from you.


0:53:22.8 Jordan: Thanks, brother.


0:53:24.8 Michael: We got a lot of request today, right? We… That five-star review sneaked that code word popcorn somewhere in there, our book, “Eat It” is available for pre-sale, and… So if you have listened to any of these episodes, if you want to support us, if you wanted to gift a few to your clients, we would greatly, greatly, greatly appreciate you putting in a pre-order. We’ll put the link in the description. Jordan is usually the sales guy, I’m just kind of riffing it here right now… You got anything else?


0:53:56.2 Jordan: No, you’re killing it. That was a great pitch, bro. That was really good.




0:54:01.1 Jordan: That was really terrible. Good job. Yeah, you get some of the books, get a couple of books. [laughter]


0:54:05.1 Michael: But no, really, we would genuinely… We would very much appreciate some book purchases. You can find it on Amazon, you can find it where books are sold. Thank you.




0:54:20.1 Jordan: You can find it where… Where books are sold.




0:54:25.8 Michael: Except it’s not in stores yet until June 7th, so really, you can’t.


0:54:32.0 Jordan: But there’s a link in the show notes where you can find it.


0:54:34.4 Michael: That’s right, that’s right.


0:54:35.0 Jordan: Books are sold.


0:54:36.3 Michael: That’s ESTP.




0:54:39.7 Michael: The bookstore.


0:54:40.0 Jordan: Want some French fries? Go to where french fries are sold.




0:54:45.8 Michael: Exactly.


0:54:46.7 Jordan: Well great.


0:54:47.7 Michael: Thank you for listening. We bang weekly episodes here, we don’t miss weeks. This is 2022, you can feel the fire, you can feel the momentum, you can feel the spirit of our ancestors driving us through this year, so let’s keep getting after it, keep banging the drums, keep making content, keep hitting lifts. And we’ll see you next week. We love you very much. Good bye.


0:55:05.3 Jordan: See ya.

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