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In this episode, we talk about good vs evil (and how we all have both within us), non-exercise activity thermogenesis, calorie counting and hunger, the perils of fame, and more.


We hope you enjoy this episode and if you’d like to join us in The Online Fitness Business Mentorship you can grab your seat at


Thank you!

-J & M


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You can download a PDF version of the transcript here


Or you can expand to find the full episode transcription below:


0:00:12.0 Mike Vacanti: Hello, Jordan.


0:00:12.5 Jordan Syatt: What’s up, Michael?


0:00:13.8 Mike Vacanti: You know what? I’m going to turn off this fireplace because I bet David…


0:00:24.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Let’s keep that in there. You have an electric fireplace?


0:00:28.7 Mike Vacanti: It’s a one-take show. Yeah.


0:00:29.8 Jordan Syatt: Is it real fire?


0:00:37.1 Mike Vacanti: I don’t believe so, but I’m not…


0:00:37.5 Jordan Syatt: Does it actually get hot?


0:00:39.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, of course.


0:00:40.6 Jordan Syatt: Well, then what would it be if it’s not real fire?


0:00:43.3 Mike Vacanti: I have no idea.


0:00:44.7 Jordan Syatt: So you just hit a button and fire pops up?


0:00:46.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, it’s a light switch.


0:00:49.9 Jordan Syatt: Really?


0:00:51.2 Mike Vacanti: And the pilot light goes on… And yeah, yeah. So yeah, I guess it is.


0:00:52.4 Jordan Syatt: Well, that’s cool.


0:00:53.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:00:56.3 Jordan Syatt: Man, can you imagine if our ancestors, like you tell… Yeah, you just…


0:01:00.0 Mike Vacanti: Flick a switch.


0:01:00.8 Jordan Syatt: Flick this and then fire.


0:01:00.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:01:01.2 Jordan Syatt: How are you doing, bro?


0:01:04.6 Mike Vacanti: I’m good, man.


0:01:06.0 Jordan Syatt: I really thought you were going to go in on BOSU balls at the beginning of this conversation after our talk last night.


0:01:11.3 Mike Vacanti: No, I’m saving that for next week. I’m not as passionate about it right now.


0:01:15.4 Jordan Syatt: Oh, okay. You’re more passionate about something else for today?


0:01:17.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:01:18.6 Jordan Syatt: Okay. Sick.


0:01:20.9 Mike Vacanti: All right. All right. I’m thinking of an exercise.


0:01:22.2 Jordan Syatt: Okay. Go. Just, that’s it? Just go?


0:01:28.8 Mike Vacanti: Uh-huh.


0:01:31.5 Jordan Syatt: Lower body or upper body?


0:01:31.7 Mike Vacanti: Upper.


0:01:32.1 Jordan Syatt: Pull or push?


0:01:36.7 Mike Vacanti: Push.


0:01:36.9 Jordan Syatt: Wow. But there’s a caveat to those watching the video pod can see the hesitation that there’s like a…


0:01:42.8 Mike Vacanti: I had to think about it. That’s what that was.


0:01:43.9 Jordan Syatt: Okay. But it’s a push.


0:01:47.4 Mike Vacanti: I believe it’s a push.


0:01:49.2 Jordan Syatt: Oh, man. Okay. Upper body?


0:01:51.4 Mike Vacanti: Yes, yes. It’s a push. It’s a push.


0:01:51.5 Jordan Syatt: Upper body push. Horizontal or vertical?


0:01:57.1 Mike Vacanti: It doesn’t really apply.


0:01:58.4 Jordan Syatt: Interesting. Is this an exercise that you do a lot?


0:02:07.3 Mike Vacanti: Not as often as I should.


0:02:11.2 Jordan Syatt: An upper body pressing exercise that isn’t either vertical or horizontal?


0:02:19.1 Mike Vacanti: It’s horizontal. It’s a horizontal press.


0:02:22.2 Jordan Syatt: Is it on a bench or freestanding?


0:02:24.8 Mike Vacanti: The variation I am thinking of is on a bench.


0:02:29.9 Jordan Syatt: Inclined dumbbell bench press?


0:02:31.2 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:02:31.3 Jordan Syatt: You say it’s horizontal?


0:02:33.2 Mike Vacanti: I think so.


0:02:34.4 Jordan Syatt: Man, this is getting a little bit difficult.


0:02:35.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I know. I started this segment with a tough one. If you narrow down the body part, that’s going to help a lot.


0:02:41.5 Jordan Syatt: Shoulders?


0:02:42.3 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:02:44.2 Jordan Syatt: Pecs?


0:02:45.3 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:02:46.1 Jordan Syatt: Triceps?


0:02:47.5 Mike Vacanti: Uh-huh.


0:02:48.9 Jordan Syatt: We’ve got an upper body pressing exercise that is neither…


0:02:51.4 Mike Vacanti: Don’t get hooked on pressing. I think technically it’s a…


0:02:54.4 Jordan Syatt: Well, I have to be hooked on pressing.


0:02:54.8 Mike Vacanti: Technically, it’s a press rather than a pull. Like physiologically, technically. But don’t get wrapped up in that.


0:03:02.5 Jordan Syatt: Okay.


0:03:05.4 Mike Vacanti: Keep thinking of body parts above the waist.


0:03:07.6 Jordan Syatt: Is this a core exercise?


0:03:09.5 Mike Vacanti: Uh-huh.


0:03:10.6 Jordan Syatt: Traps?


0:03:11.7 Mike Vacanti: Yes, arguably. Definitely some.


0:03:18.6 Jordan Syatt: Scap push-up?


0:03:21.2 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:03:21.8 Jordan Syatt: Man.


0:03:23.9 Mike Vacanti: We’re doing this lying down, remember?


0:03:26.1 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lying down on the bench. Lying on a bench. Interesting. Bro, I have no idea. Is this a strength exercise or mobility exercise?


0:03:40.9 Mike Vacanti: Yes. Strength.


0:03:41.0 Jordan Syatt: It’s strength. Am I going to be pissed when I figure this out?


0:03:47.1 Mike Vacanti: No. You’re going to be like, why’d you pick that one? Like that was so hard.


0:03:50.3 Jordan Syatt: That’s what she said. Tell me, what is it?


0:03:54.9 Mike Vacanti: No, no, no, no, no, no. That’s not how these things work. Keep going. Come on, persevere.


0:04:00.8 Jordan Syatt: Bilateral?


0:04:02.0 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:04:03.2 Jordan Syatt: Unilateral?


0:04:04.8 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:04:06.4 Jordan Syatt: Well, what the fuck…


0:04:07.1 Mike Vacanti: Bilateral. Keep naming body parts. That’s how you’re going to get there.


0:04:15.4 Jordan Syatt: All right. It’s not pecs.


0:04:16.6 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:04:18.0 Jordan Syatt: It’s not shoulders.


0:04:18.0 Mike Vacanti: It’s not these. It’s not these.


0:04:22.3 Jordan Syatt: It’s not triceps.


0:04:25.1 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:04:26.5 Jordan Syatt: It’s a little trap.


0:04:28.3 Mike Vacanti: Mm-hmm.


0:04:29.3 Jordan Syatt: I’m like limited because it’s a press. So I’m not going to say like rhomboids.


0:04:34.4 Mike Vacanti: Well, correct. It’s not rhomboids.


0:04:37.0 Jordan Syatt: Lats?


0:04:37.9 Mike Vacanti: No. Higher.


0:04:45.3 Jordan Syatt: Cheekbone. Cheeks.


0:04:48.6 Mike Vacanti: Lower.


0:04:50.9 Jordan Syatt: Neck.


0:04:52.6 Mike Vacanti: Yes.


0:04:53.9 Jordan Syatt: The iron neck? But this is not a…


0:04:57.0 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:05:00.1 Jordan Syatt: Hold on. Chin tucks?


0:05:13.6 Mike Vacanti: Not quite.


0:05:17.2 Jordan Syatt: Bro, what is it?


0:05:18.3 Mike Vacanti: We’re lying on a bench and we’re training the neck and it’s more of a push than a pull. You can ask equipment related questions too.


0:05:27.5 Jordan Syatt: Dumbbells?


0:05:27.6 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:05:29.8 Jordan Syatt: The hands?


0:05:30.0 Mike Vacanti: Nope.


0:05:32.0 Jordan Syatt: Body weight?


0:05:32.2 Mike Vacanti: Nope.


0:05:38.1 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know, bro. Tell me.


0:05:40.1 Mike Vacanti: We’re finishing this segment.


0:05:42.9 Jordan Syatt: Finishing it with you telling me what this exercise is. [laughter]


0:05:44.9 Mike Vacanti: Come on, Jordan. You got this. We’re lying on a bench. We’re not using dumbbells.


0:05:50.7 Jordan Syatt: What an obscure exercise to begin this segment with?


0:05:52.0 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know. I actually just programmed it for a client yesterday.


0:05:55.3 Jordan Syatt: Is the neck lying off of the bench or is your neck supported on the bench?


0:06:00.2 Mike Vacanti: The neck is unsupported.


0:06:04.2 Jordan Syatt: On an incline?


0:06:04.9 Mike Vacanti: You could do it on an incline or you could do it flat.


0:06:08.2 Jordan Syatt: For some reason in my head I had put it on an incline. Just neck extensions?


0:06:15.1 Mike Vacanti: What kind of neck extensions?




0:06:18.8 Jordan Syatt: Are you prone?


0:06:22.7 Mike Vacanti: Yes.


0:06:23.8 Jordan Syatt: You’re prone on the bench?


0:06:25.6 Mike Vacanti: Yes.


0:06:27.3 Jordan Syatt: Are you using one of those chains that you wrap around your head? [chuckle]


0:06:30.4 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:06:33.3 Jordan Syatt: A barbell plate behind your head?


0:06:34.9 Mike Vacanti: Plate.


0:06:38.1 Jordan Syatt: Plate neck extensions?


0:06:39.7 Mike Vacanti: Yes. Lime plate loaded neck extensions.


0:06:44.8 Jordan Syatt: Man, you really… And this is a push. Dude, no, that’s a pull.


0:06:50.9 Mike Vacanti: But then you think neck flexion is a push? You think this is a push? I think this is a pull and I think this is a push. Just like elbow flexion is a pull.


0:07:00.2 Jordan Syatt: No, I think this is a pull and this is… I think they’re both pulling.


0:07:03.9 Mike Vacanti: They can’t both be pulling because you’re doing the opposite direction with the C-spine.


0:07:10.4 Jordan Syatt: I think they’re both pulling because each one is… You’re getting a concentric contraction on each one.


0:07:18.9 Mike Vacanti: But when you do elbow extension, you have a concentric and it’s a push on the tricep?


0:07:26.6 Jordan Syatt: Shit, which one would be a push and pull?


0:07:29.9 Mike Vacanti: I think extension is push.


0:07:33.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I don’t know. That’s a tough one.


0:07:36.3 Mike Vacanti: All right, I got another one. You think of people might hate this episode. This might be their least favorite episode. I want you to think of a food.


0:07:45.5 Jordan Syatt: Okay.


0:07:48.4 Mike Vacanti: You got it?


0:07:49.1 Jordan Syatt: You want me to think of a food?


0:07:50.4 Mike Vacanti: Mm-hmm.


0:07:51.3 Jordan Syatt: Any food? Anything that I can eat?


0:07:55.0 Mike Vacanti: I know I set the bar…


0:07:57.6 Jordan Syatt: Is it any or you just did a really fucking difficult one, bro?


0:08:01.0 Mike Vacanti: Make it something I know. [laughter] Don’t make it something super obscure.


0:08:04.4 Jordan Syatt: I want to use a Middle Eastern spice.


0:08:07.5 Mike Vacanti: That’s literally where… [laughter]


0:08:13.2 Jordan Syatt: Okay, I’ll think of a food. Okay, got it. This is a really easy one, by the way.


0:08:22.3 Mike Vacanti: Okay, good. Are you a fruit? [laughter] What?


0:08:28.5 Jordan Syatt: The way you phrased the question just made me think back to when I was like a little kid outside Boston. What are you, a fruit? You a fruitcake?




0:08:40.6 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:08:45.7 Jordan Syatt: No, it is not a fruit.


0:08:47.0 Mike Vacanti: Okay, you can’t change it. You can’t change it.


0:08:49.3 Jordan Syatt: Okay, I’m not changing it.


0:08:51.0 Mike Vacanti: Are you a vegetable?


0:08:52.4 Jordan Syatt: Stop asking if I’m a fruit or vegetable. You know what I am. [laughter]


0:08:55.2 Mike Vacanti: That’s how the game is played. Are you a vegetable?


0:08:57.4 Jordan Syatt: No, I didn’t ask what are you, a lying neck extension?


0:09:01.0 Mike Vacanti: All right, is it a fruit? Is it a vegetable?


0:09:01.3 Jordan Syatt: No, it’s not a fruit.


0:09:05.0 Mike Vacanti: Is it a vegetable?


0:09:06.7 Jordan Syatt: No, not a vegetable.


0:09:10.6 Mike Vacanti: Is it animal-based?


0:09:11.1 Jordan Syatt: Of course. Speaking with the king of protein over here.


0:09:17.2 Mike Vacanti: Do you have greater than or equal to one gram of carbohydrate per serving?


0:09:22.1 Jordan Syatt: No.


0:09:24.8 Mike Vacanti: Okay. Are you poultry?


0:09:28.6 Jordan Syatt: Yes.


0:09:30.9 Mike Vacanti: Are you a rotisserie chicken?


0:09:31.0 Jordan Syatt: No.


0:09:33.2 Mike Vacanti: Is it rotisserie chicken?


0:09:34.5 Jordan Syatt: No, it is not.


0:09:42.0 Mike Vacanti: It’s poultry, though. Is it chicken breast?


0:09:43.6 Jordan Syatt: I would imagine that there is chicken breast in this specific food, yes.


0:09:48.7 Mike Vacanti: Oh, you went with a dish? Is this a multi-ingredient thing?


0:09:50.4 Jordan Syatt: No, no. You asked the question, like, greater than or equal to one gram of carbohydrate per serving. This is not a whole dish. This is just… This is one food, but it’s a very specific food.


0:10:00.0 Mike Vacanti: There’s one food that you imagine has chicken in it?


0:10:03.0 Jordan Syatt: No, chicken breast specifically. I would imagine it’s all chicken breast, but I’m not… I can’t be 100% positive.


0:10:13.2 Mike Vacanti: Chicken breast.


0:10:13.3 Jordan Syatt: I can’t be 100% positive that this specific food is all chicken breast. Sort of like you couldn’t be 100% sure if it’s a push or a pull. I can’t be 100% sure if this is 100% chicken breast.


0:10:27.7 Mike Vacanti: Chicken.


0:10:28.1 Jordan Syatt: There’s definitely, yeah, it’s definitely chicken, but it’s more specific than just chicken.


0:10:40.7 Mike Vacanti: Israeli chicken. [laughter]


0:10:41.6 Jordan Syatt: You know that Israeli chicken, you never know if it’s the actual breast or not. No, nothing to do with Israeli, but it’s chicken, but there’s a specific chicken.


0:10:57.1 Mike Vacanti: Based on how it’s seasoned?


0:10:57.7 Jordan Syatt: That’s part of it. That’s definitely part of it, but you don’t have to guess the seasoning.


0:11:01.1 Mike Vacanti: I wasn’t like line neck extension with a five-second eccentric into…


0:11:06.2 Jordan Syatt: No, no, no, but no, no. That’s not what this is. This is a specific meal that you can…


0:11:13.6 Mike Vacanti: No, food, not meal. Food…


0:11:20.2 Jordan Syatt: I know it is a food. It’s a food. It’s a food. You actually introduced me to this food. That is a big hint.


0:11:31.7 Mike Vacanti: Oh. Chick-fil-A grilled nuggets.


0:11:32.8 Jordan Syatt: There it is, baby. Chick-fil-A, that was the hint that gave it to you.


0:11:34.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah.


0:11:36.4 Mike Vacanti: All right. That’s pretty good.


0:11:36.5 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know. Is it all chicken breast? I don’t know.


0:11:36.6 Mike Vacanti: That’s pretty good. I wasn’t…


0:11:38.2 Jordan Syatt: I think so because it’s pretty lean.


0:11:44.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I assume it is too. That was good.


0:11:44.7 Jordan Syatt: That was a good one, right?


0:11:44.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Good start. What else is happening?


0:11:51.5 Jordan Syatt: My wife and I toured a school today for our daughter because we’re looking to buy a house within the next few years and we want to make it our forever house. We’re looking for school districts. We went to a school in the Dallas area today, which was very, very… The first time as an adult going back into a school and seeing all this stuff. It was quite a surreal experience.


0:12:23.0 Mike Vacanti: Was it a winner?


0:12:24.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. We loved it. We really loved it. You know what they had that I think basically every school should have is unbelievable security. The security at this school was insane. When I went to school, it was an open campus and basically anybody could walk in. Actually, there weren’t even security guards at my school, but even if there were, anyone could still walk in. It would be up to the security guard to stop them. At this school, there’s a gate. There’s one entrance and one exit and there’s a gate that you have to go through and a huge tall gate to get in. Every… Because there’s multiple buildings on the campus, every building is a key card entrance that you have to use to get in and out of the buildings and multiple security guards. I was just like, man, this is incredible to see that. It’s actually interesting because in Israel, that’s how the schools are. Every school, there’s a gate. There’s a security guard at the gate to get in and out, all that stuff. I was like, man, this is… I love having that there. Yeah, that was a big win.


0:13:46.7 Mike Vacanti: Public or private school?


0:13:47.2 Jordan Syatt: This one was private, which holy shit, private schools are expensive. I did not realize that.


0:13:53.2 Mike Vacanti: Like K through 12 or just elementary?


0:13:56.3 Jordan Syatt: K through 12. Actually, lower than K. They have stuff starting from three months, which I don’t think we would do.


0:14:04.3 Mike Vacanti: Starting from three months?


0:14:06.1 Jordan Syatt: From three months, you can get your child in there a couple days a week.


0:14:07.4 Mike Vacanti: Wow.


0:14:10.3 Jordan Syatt: And yeah, which is, I think it’s like daycare, but they have… They’d probably be offended if I said that because they take it very seriously and they have a lot of learning stuff that goes into it. But I also have that weird idea in my head of I don’t want my kid to be a private school kid because I was not a private school kid.


0:14:29.4 Mike Vacanti: We talked about this.


0:14:32.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, so that’s definitely in my head as something. And also the sports were a little bit lackluster, which I was not super happy about.


0:14:39.8 Mike Vacanti: At this school?


0:14:41.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, at this school in particular.


0:14:43.9 Mike Vacanti: Got it. Not their main focus?


0:14:46.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, not their main focus. Good theater program it looked like, but…


0:14:52.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. The private versus public school, if you’re in a position where you’re fortunate enough to be able to make that decision is an interesting one, and we’ll cross that bridge. Although apparently, you’ll be crossing it sooner potentially.


0:15:08.2 Jordan Syatt: You know what I don’t like about uniforms? So this school has uniforms from I think kindergarten through eighth grade. And then in high school, you’re no longer required to wear the uniform, but there’s a dress code that you have to apply. I like the dress code far better than uniforms. I know one of the arguments for uniforms is well now, kids don’t need to worry about having the best style or whatever. Everyone just wears the same thing. But I feel like on multiple levels, number one is that’s such a basic level of understanding that not everything is going to be equal. Not everyone’s going to have the same thing and facing that early on like why did they get to wear this but I don’t have this mom? Or why don’t I have this dad? Well, because we’re not spending that much money on that clothing for you. Their parents are more than welcome to do that if they want, but that’s not how we do it in our house. So I feel like those conversations are going to be lost. And then there’s also the… I feel like so much is, especially at a younger age, so much is expressed through how you dress and being able to have that autonomy to choose, well, I’m going to wear this or I’m going to wear this. I feel like that’s an important skill to get early on. I don’t like the uniforms, you know what I mean?


0:16:44.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah. I feel like the quality of education is the main driver in my mind. And based on where you live, how good is the public school system there? If it’s really good, cool. If it’s not, that’s when I would start to consider something else. And who knows? That changes over time, obviously.


0:17:06.2 Jordan Syatt: A big one is also honestly just safety.


0:17:07.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:17:08.6 Jordan Syatt: Right? It’s just safety in the school. That’s a big one.


0:17:13.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, definitely. Which I think is probably correlated with quality of education unfortunately.


0:17:22.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.


0:17:30.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. At least in around where I grew up, it was.


0:17:31.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah.


0:17:32.0 Mike Vacanti: Well, nice, is that… So that’s a real contender?


0:17:32.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it’s a real contender. We’re going to visit public schools as well, and we’re still trying to figure out what area we want to buy a house in. So we’re not 100% sure yet. But yeah, this is very early in the process.


0:17:44.0 Mike Vacanti: Nice man. That’s exciting.


0:17:47.0 Jordan Syatt: What’s up with you?


0:18:02.0 Mike Vacanti: Chilling. Rest day, getting work done, weekly podcasts. Who would have thought that we just hammer episode after episode every single week consistently?


0:18:02.2 Jordan Syatt: I knew it. I knew it. I knew it.


0:18:03.3 Mike Vacanti: Did you?


0:18:03.8 Jordan Syatt: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Video pods I didn’t actually expect to happen. But you know… Oh by the way, if you’re not following us on social media, make sure you do that. We’re posting every day on social media.


0:18:17.1 Mike Vacanti: Daily.


0:18:17.4 Jordan Syatt: Daily uploads on social media. What are our social media handles, Mike?


0:18:22.7 Mike Vacanti: @personaltrainerpodcast on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Facebook.


0:18:30.6 Jordan Syatt: Love that.


0:18:30.7 Mike Vacanti: Twitter.


0:18:32.0 Jordan Syatt: Twitter. Not active on there yet but we have it.


0:18:34.4 Mike Vacanti: We haven’t figured out a Twitter strategy. Yeah. You don’t have to be everywhere at once.


0:18:48.4 Jordan Syatt: It’s not that we haven’t figured out the strategy. It’s more just like, eh, I’m not spending the time on it yet.


0:18:48.5 Mike Vacanti: Well, and just for the other places, we’re reposting.


0:18:49.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:18:53.8 Mike Vacanti: Whereas that doesn’t make as much sense on Twitter to just throw real style on in a tweet for your entire feed.


0:19:00.5 Jordan Syatt: You’re wearing one of my favorite, if not my favorite sweatshirt of yours right now.


0:19:12.1 Mike Vacanti: Mr. Solzhenitsyn.


0:19:12.9 Jordan Syatt: “The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being.” Man.


0:19:13.1 Mike Vacanti: I think that’s partly paraphrased too where he said like, the line between good and evil does not go down political lines or country lines or there might even be one or two other things but through the heart of the individual.


0:19:34.5 Jordan Syatt: That was part of what Lex Fridman and Ben Shapiro spoke about in that podcast you sent me.


0:19:34.6 Mike Vacanti: Oh, interesting. Did you watch? I hadn’t even started it.


0:19:35.8 Jordan Syatt: No, I haven’t watched the whole thing but one of the things that Ben Shapiro touched on which I think is such an important discussion, he said that people have this idea that if they were alive or lived in an area during a time of serious oppression that like they would have been the person to stand up and speak out and they also assume that people who have done really bad things like people who we look at as like evil are just like a completely different type of person and they couldn’t imagine that they would do that same type of thing. It’s like that’s just so far out of reality when you’re surrounded by that and your livelihood depends and your survival depends on essentially conforming to what the societal norms are regardless of whether or not you think they’re okay. 99.999999% chance you’re doing the exact same shit that you look back on in history and can’t believe people did.


0:20:49.4 Mike Vacanti: Ordinary Men, right? Isn’t that the name of that book?


0:20:49.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, great book.


0:20:53.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, it’s easy to judge other times. That one’s particularly outrageous, but if you take any example it’s easier to judge other times in history through the lens of today’s standards and morality.


0:21:09.5 Jordan Syatt: Well, that one as well even like it’s easy to judge like I could not imagine. That’s why it’s crazy. I think some of the greatest heroes of the Holocaust and World War II are the people who were not Jewish but took Jews into their homes and hid them and tried to save. Those are some of the greatest, they weren’t Jewish, they had no reason to do it other than what they felt was deeply right and put them and their entire families at risk and often they were killed because of it. It’s like those are like the ultimate heroes. All they had to do was just conform and put on a face and do what everyone else was doing and they deliberately went out of their way and risked their lives and lives of their entire family to try and save people who were innocent. And it’s like those were so few and far between, but those were like the ultimate.


0:22:11.7 Jordan Syatt: The people who joined the army or joined the storm troopers, whatever it is, even if they didn’t believe it they were like, well, I’ve got to do it in order to stay alive and to keep my family alive. It’s like that’s what the vast majority of people would have done by far.


0:22:19.7 Mike Vacanti: And it almost takes a level of arrogance to think, oh, if I was there I would have done this impossibly courageous thing and gone against everything, chosen the right path rather than the safe one even though it puts my life, my family’s life at risk. It makes it even more impressive.


0:22:51.9 Jordan Syatt: You’ll like this, in the Batman movie, the Joker, do you remember the scene when the Joker gets those two guys in a room and he’s like, all right, I’m going to bring one of you on but I only have room for one more and this is when tryouts are and then he leaves them the sharpened stick. He’s basically saying you’re going to fight to the death, but then they immediately cut the scene so you don’t actually see if they fought to the death or not but it’s like that type of situation where you’re best friends with someone potentially, you’re best friends, you work together, it’s like, okay, but only one of you can live right now. Do you fight to the death with that person or do you… What do you do? These are the types of situations where I love that quote on your sweatshirt because it’s not black and white. There’s so much that goes into what we do and why and when we’re put in these difficult situations, you might make the choice that you’re probably not going to be the most proud of.


0:23:44.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, 100%. Want to fire up some questions?


0:23:44.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I can fire up. You want to fire up some questions or do you want me to?


0:23:47.9 Mike Vacanti: I got one email question that we can lead with. And it is from Alyssa who says, hello Jordan and Mike. I love the podcast and hear you loud and clear on getting an in-person internship to gain experience. I’m currently a full-time accountant in San Diego, California and I want to find a part-time internship. I’ve looked for jobs online, but I don’t see many in this area. How would you suggest I go about finding an in-person gym internship? Through social media, keep looking online, driving to gyms to see if they need an intern? I do not want to be an online fitness coach tomorrow. At this point, I just want to get my foot in the door to see if this is a career that I would enjoy. I certainly don’t want to be an accountant any longer than I have to. Thank you for all your help. Thank you for all the free helpful content you put out. I look forward to listening to the podcast weekly.


0:24:40.0 Jordan Syatt: I love that. Thank you for the kind words. There are two ways that I did it when I got my internships. The first one when I was a teenager is I literally… So I was really interested in kettlebells specifically. My wrestling coach was super interested in kettlebells and we were… I was like obsessed with kettlebells. At that point, at 14 years old, I was like, kettlebells are the best. These things are the best. Nothing is better than kettlebells. So I searched kettlebell gym near me and I happened to find one a couple of towns over. And then I just looked at their website, looked at their pictures. I didn’t know what I was seeing and I just wrote them an email and said, I’ll take the trash out. I’ll clean the floors. Let me just come and learn from you and work for free and they took me in. That work turned out to be one of the greatest things that has ever happened to me. You could just Google certain types of… Let’s say you’re really interested in powerlifting.


0:25:42.0 Jordan Syatt: You could Google search powerlifting gym near me or I don’t know, strength training gym near me. I wouldn’t do it at probably like a chain gym. I wouldn’t do it at like a New York sports club or a LA fitness. These probably… Not to say there aren’t some great individual coaches there but as a company, I highly doubt they have opportunities like that and you just never know who you’re going to get. Generally, you’ll find better coaching on a whole and more opportunities for internships in more specialized and private facilities which are the gyms that I worked in and interned in. You could Google search that and/or using social media, finding gym owners that really resonate with you and coaches who really resonate with you. One of the things now that might be a little bit different is there are so many more independent coaches and trainers who maybe they work out of their garage or they have their own facility where they coach a couple of people. If there’s someone that you follow who maybe they don’t have their own gym and a whole company, but they’re a great coach and they coach people out of their garage, reaching out and saying, hey, listen, I know you coach people out of your garage. I would love to be able to come and work with you and do… I don’t know, get you coffee or clean your gym or whatever it is and just be available to you so I can learn from you while you coach. That might be a good option as well.


0:27:02.7 Mike Vacanti: 100%. In addition to what you just said, at a commercial gym you’re also less likely to get a level of support and mentorship and guidance. It’s much more structured than a private facility. One of the other key things you hit on there which is huge and which a lot of people I think historically just have an expectation for getting paid, literally your payment is the experience you’re getting there. So go in willing to work hard for free and however many hours a week you can, Alyssa, obviously. It sounds like you’re going to continue to work full-time at your accounting job, but I would go in and I would say literally I’m willing to do anything. I’m willing to sweep the floors. I’m willing to go get you lunch. I’m willing to do anything that will make your life easier. In a short amount of time of doing that, it’s very likely that you’re going to get more opportunities and be in a position to have more and more responsibility. I think of D Rock, Gary’s longtime videographer and editor who started by literally doing free pro bono projects for Gary just to get his attention.


0:28:34.5 Mike Vacanti: He was sinking hours and hours and hours into making these movie-like five-minute videos for Gary that he knew that he would like to get his attention, to get the opportunity to get hired, to then have a salary, to then progress in his career. But there’s a mentality that don’t undersell yourself or make sure to charge what you’re worth or don’t do free work. Free work is the best way to get your foot in the door.


0:28:55.4 Jordan Syatt: And going off what you’re saying, I think that most people massively overvalue how much they’re worth. I see so many people walking into this being like, oh, well, I should be getting paid more. I should get… Why? Why should you be getting paid just because you think you deserve to be paid more? I don’t think that just because you think you deserve to be paid more, I don’t think that. It’s like a lot of coaches are like, oh, I’m not getting paid enough. I’m like, okay, raise your prices. If people don’t pay it, then clearly you don’t deserve it. That’s it.


0:29:30.2 Mike Vacanti: That’s the beauty of the free market. It’s like the market tells you not what you’re worth as a human, as an individual, but in a business sense and in that supply and demand curve, the market literally tells you what you’re worth.


0:29:53.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. People are like, well, I’m a human, I’m worth more. Hold on. Your salary, regardless of your salary, doesn’t tell you your worth as a human being. That salary is irrelevant from your worth as a human, but in terms of your hourly rate or what you’re worth, that’s very much dependent on how many people know your knowledge and care about your knowledge and how much time you’ve invested thus far. It’s the idea that you should be getting paid for an internship. I will say for some people, it’s not realistic to do an unpaid internship just based on where you are in life. That’s totally fine, but whether or not it’s realistic for you in your current life situation is a different question than whether or not you’re worth getting paid, what you should be getting paid for that job. It’s two different discussions.


0:30:42.1 Mike Vacanti: And for that reason, it has always been my thought process to get yourself in a position where you can afford to take an unpaid internship for the opportunity that it provides you. This question hits home for me. I was an accountant for two years out of college. I hated every single day of work. And during that time period, and I’ve told this story countless times, but the savings that you can accumulate is going to buy you time to take a shot at your fitness career, let’s say, or any new career. If you don’t accumulate that savings, then you’re going to have to continue to work your day job. You’re going to have less time to focus on your thing. There’s pros and cons, right? Work three, four hours a day at night slowly over time and build on the side. It’ll take longer, but you keep the stability and the security. If you do like it and it’s going well, then you can quit your full-time job.


0:31:36.5 Mike Vacanti: That’s an option too. But if you really want to take a shot at something new, knowing that you’re going to have to take a massive drop down in salary, spending this time saving as much as possible, reducing as much unnecessary life expenses as possible so that you can save, so that you have more time to take a shot at what you really want to do is so important. That means all the cliche stuff of buying new purses or expensive clothes or going out to expensive meals or going out partying and having $200 bar tabs. All of these things need to get cut out in this micro window in life so that you can take the shot. You don’t have to live that frugally forever, but for this time period, it’s so important.


0:32:23.7 Jordan Syatt: Bro, you know who I really like is Dave Ramsey, and I was listening to him yesterday, and he said something so interesting about finance and wealth.


0:32:36.0 Mike Vacanti: A YouTube clip or like a full podcast?


0:32:38.5 Jordan Syatt: Instagram.


0:32:38.9 Mike Vacanti: Okay. Okay.


0:32:39.6 Jordan Syatt: He does have a great podcast, but I was listening to a reel, that was a clip that I believe was from one of his podcasts. He says something so interesting about wealth and about finance over the long term. He said from his own experience working with many, many, many people, he’s like, there is no question, there is a clearly direct relationship between how long you’re planning ahead and how much money you have. He said this, he said, the people who are planning for next weekend all the time, who are planning for Friday, Saturday, Sunday, they just without question on a general basis have less money than people who are planning like a year, three years, five years ahead. When you… He was like, when you live for the weekend and the extent of your forward thinking is what’s going on this weekend, you’re going to be spending more money, you’re going to be wasting money, you’re going to be buying things you don’t need. But when your forward thinking and planning goes, well, what about a year from now, five years from now, 10 years from now, those people almost always have greater wealth and greater finances because they’re not spending money on stupid shit.


0:33:53.5 Jordan Syatt: I thought that was a really good way to put it in terms of just practical thinking of, well, how far ahead are you planning? Are you planning till this Friday or are you planning until three years from now? And with your accounting, it was two years, you were saving for those entire two years, you could build up, your planning was not for that coming weekend, your planning was two years in advance or years in advance so you could get enough savings to then comfortably leave and have some wiggle room. So that like fits in line perfectly with what he was saying and I like him a lot.


0:34:16.8 Mike Vacanti: I think I’ve told you before that the way you felt the first time you heard Dale Carnegie’s book is exactly how I felt the first time I heard three Dave Ramsey clips. I was like, yeah, makes sense. Like yeah, yeah, it seems like common knowledge.


0:34:34.6 Jordan Syatt: Common knowledge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


0:34:38.7 Mike Vacanti: No, that’s really good. And the more you’re thinking ahead, there’s almost a degree of like sacrifice and trying to minimize impulsiveness to it too. Giving up short term pleasures for long term deeper meaning or something that’s more important to you. But it’s difficult. Like after a long stressful week and if you’re coping or if your a form of enjoyment is going out and having a bunch of drinks and going party like whatever. It’s hard to not do that. But by giving that up, you’re going to benefit in the long term.


0:35:18.1 Jordan Syatt: It’s interesting. So I just had this thought in my head. I think when people focus on short term pleasures, they lose long term stability. But when they focus on long term stability, they might not have as many short term pleasures, but they do have that longer term stability and more freedom. So it’s like either you’re going to have more short term pleasures, but that’s going to lead to longer term instability and being unsure of what’s going to happen, what’s going to come, what are you going to have available to you. But when you can sort of forego not necessarily all short term pleasures, but when you can forego them more often, you create more long term stability with yourself and your finances.


0:36:06.9 Mike Vacanti: Absolutely. That’s 100% correct. Not to mention pleasure is good in moderation, but excess of pleasure is just like gross.


0:36:19.2 Jordan Syatt: Hedonism.


0:36:20.2 Mike Vacanti: And even like a degree of hedonism is, I don’t know, in my opinion, leads to like good balance, right? Like whether that’s my mind goes to like desserts or some kind of like indulgent…


0:36:34.1 Jordan Syatt: I knew it. I knew you were gonna be like chocolate chip cookies is where your mind goes to. I fucking that’s… Your hedonic activity is like having two cookies. [laughter]


0:36:45.2 Mike Vacanti: Absolutely not, because I’ve never had two cookies before. I’ve never had two chocolate chip cookies. I had zero plenty of times and I’ve had many plenty of times. But hedonism covers a lot of things. Basically, you don’t need to be a saint, but at the same time too much of it. And I’m not even saying that like ruins your life long term. I’m saying too much short term pleasure and you actually lose the satisfaction or the enjoyment of the pleasure. That hedonic adaptation where it just becomes your new norm.


0:37:19.9 Jordan Syatt: You said you don’t have to be a saint. And then that made me think about a movie I was watching yesterday where they discuss Saint Sebastian. And then I was thinking a whole number of things, but number one I was… The first question was, do you have like favorite saints? I don’t know if that’s a stupid question. Are there certain saints that you look up to more or less or they have certain values or things that a certain saint that means more to you or you connect more with?


0:37:55.7 Mike Vacanti: I know nothing of the saints. I know almost nothing. In my limited knowledge, I think that’s more exclusive to Catholicism.


0:38:08.3 Jordan Syatt: Okay. Okay. Yeah, ’cause when when they spoke about Saint Sebastian, I was like, oh, man, I feel like Mike would really like Saint Sebastian.


0:38:16.0 Mike Vacanti: What was the movie?


0:38:17.3 Jordan Syatt: It was the movie I was watching last night. It was…


0:38:19.7 Mike Vacanti: The jujitsu one?


0:38:21.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. What did I say the name of that movie was?


0:38:24.4 Mike Vacanti: Becoming a champ… Born a Champion?


0:38:27.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, Born a Champion. Yeah, yeah. He spoke about Saint Sebastian. From what he said in the movie, I was like, I feel like that would be one of Mike’s favorites. But I know like, I’m pretty sure I see you quote, John a lot. Saint John. I don’t know, maybe I’m making that up.


0:38:43.5 Mike Vacanti: Like in our conversations?


0:38:45.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah.


0:38:48.5 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:38:49.5 Jordan Syatt: Okay, nevermind.


0:38:49.6 Mike Vacanti: Pat was probably, we had some verses from the book of John.


0:38:52.7 Jordan Syatt: Was John a saint?


0:39:05.5 Mike Vacanti: You’re taking me down like a theology route where I’m… Actually you know what, this takes us somewhere perfect. I saw this Ryan holiday Instagram post that said, “Remember, you don’t have to have an opinion about this.” And I think I’m gonna start going super hard with I don’t knows, and then super hard into things that I’m actually knowledgeable about in life. Because there are so many like realms where I really have no idea. And I’ll even get in debates sometimes or conversations. And sometimes I end up adopting a position just because I don’t like the other person’s position, but I don’t really know any, like in politics, especially, I’m not watching CNN, I’m not like deep in it, I don’t really know what’s going on. But then if there’s a conversation, all like… And either way, sometimes I’ll just play devil’s advocate, but want to have an argument emotionally, but realistically, I don’t know what I’m talking about. And in those… And then there’s like this expectation that everyone needs to have an opinion, everyone needs to be educated. It’s like, well, there’s an infinite number of subjects in life. And we can’t all be adequately educated on all topics. So getting back into the habit of being like, I don’t know. So to answer your question, I don’t really know anything about saints.


0:40:11.7 Jordan Syatt: Got it. Cool.


0:40:13.1 Mike Vacanti: I know you’re a big Ryan Holiday guy.


0:40:15.5 Jordan Syatt: I do like Ryan Holiday.


0:40:17.6 Mike Vacanti: Marcus Aurelius. Epictetus.




0:40:21.8 Mike Vacanti: The stoics, man. I think I…


0:40:22.7 Jordan Syatt: “Seneca says…” [laughter]


0:40:25.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seneca… I heard him first on the Tim Ferriss podcast in like 2014 or 15. And yeah, he’s put out a lot of good and useful stuff over the years.


0:40:35.7 Jordan Syatt: I have his book right outside the in the kitchen. It’s the newest book is, I think it’s called Discipline is Destiny. I haven’t opened it yet. I haven’t started reading it.


0:40:45.9 Mike Vacanti: Reading’s so hard.


0:40:45.9 Jordan Syatt: It’s way more difficult now than it used to be.


0:40:49.9 Mike Vacanti: Our phones, my phone has ruined my brain.


0:40:54.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, agreed.


0:40:54.2 Mike Vacanti: Like even in the last two to three, two years.


0:40:58.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, there’s also part of me really struggles just to sit down and read. Mainly because I don’t like sitting. And I’m like, I want to be moving, I want to be moving and it’s very hard to read and move. Right? Like I would like to be able to bring a book on a treadmill or the elliptical, but I see some people reading books on the elliptical and I don’t understand. I’m like, “How do you not get seasick?” That’s like the perfect recipe to get like motion sickness. Like how do you… I have trouble reading in one line staying totally still. Nevermind moving my entire body in a cyclical fashion trying to like read across the line, I don’t know how they do that.


0:41:41.7 Mike Vacanti: I don’t either.


0:41:43.6 Jordan Syatt: So that’s where the audio books help, but I feel like retention is lower with audio books.


0:41:48.0 Mike Vacanti: I agree and it is for me personally, but it’s better than nothing.


0:41:52.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:41:54.1 Mike Vacanti: That’s where the overwhelming majority of the books that I’ve consumed in the last three years has been through audio book not through sitting down and reading. And that desire, did you always have that desire to not want to sit still?


0:42:11.1 Jordan Syatt: My mom always makes jokes because she always says with my brother when we were young, when we would go to a restaurant, she was like my brother Lee could sit down for the entire hour, hour and a half. No problem. She knew with me that from the moment we sat down she had 15 minutes and once 15 minutes was up like I was up and running. So like whether it was in a movie theater or going out to eat she had 15 minutes from the moment I sat down until the moment I got antsy and needed to get up. So I think part of me has always been like that. Yeah.


0:42:41.4 Mike Vacanti: Got it.


0:42:43.8 Jordan Syatt: Which is probably NEAT non- exercise activity thermogenesis. [laughter]


0:42:47.0 Mike Vacanti: When you said like I don’t even wanna… It’s not just reading. I don’t even wanna sit down. I wanna move, I immediately went to like genetics and NEAT was the first place my brain went to.


0:43:00.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah. Which like my brother has openly discussed his weight struggles before like that has to play a massive factor into it, where it’s like he has a greater propensity to be able to sit down. Ever since he was a kid, just genetically he’s just better sitting down like he could watch a whole movie from the time he was a little kid. No problem. I really struggled with that when I was younger. I needed to be up and moving which it’s so interesting how that genetic propensity to have more or less movement can massively impact your weight.


0:43:32.3 Mike Vacanti: It really is. And to be clear, that’s a fraction of what causes weight gain and I wasn’t stating that is the difference between you and your brother.


0:43:41.3 Jordan Syatt: No. No. No. But it’s a pretty big fraction to be honest, like NEAT is a is a huge portion of metabolism and like obviously there are many issues, like obviously that’s not the like the only reason my brother struggled with weight. But I just think it’s so interesting on a global level to look at it’s much more complex than I think many people realize. And even two people who come from the same parents and have the same overall genetics can still have two very different metabolic makeups especially from this one factor of non-exercise activity thermogenesis. It’s just like it’s so interesting to me.


0:44:23.6 Mike Vacanti: And we used to think that the genetic component of calorie expenditure was baked into BMR. We used to think that some people like take two individuals both same height both weigh 160. We used to think that if there was a genetic difference it was driven by a substantial difference in that person’s basal metabolic rate when in reality and they have done a, I don’t know if there’s many just cause there aren’t like that many good metabolic ward studies on anything ’cause they’re so hard and expensive, but there was one on NEAT and overfeeding where some percentage of, some small percentage of the people when they were overfed just like instinctively were bouncing off the walls for the entire duration of the study.


0:45:15.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, some of the people were like burning 900 calories just from their NEAT and other people were burning like 200 calories from their NEAT. It’s like it’s crazy.


0:45:24.5 Mike Vacanti: Well, that’s the range that I have in mind. I think it was even bigger in this one study. Which is wild.


0:45:34.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah. It’s really crazy.


0:45:39.9 Mike Vacanti: It’s weird because it’s not NEAT once it’s intentional, right? If you’re like, oh, I’m gonna try and do this then it’s like it’s not NEAT anymore then that’s technically exercise. But I do wonder if there are ways to build… If NEAT is purely genetic or if there are ways to train the habit or maybe training the habit just leads to more intentional activity rather than NEAT activity.


0:46:14.0 Jordan Syatt: Well, so I mean I think in terms of… I think it plays into both. So for example if there’s some aspects of NEAT are like say fidgeting. I think fidgeting is far more genetic, is more like that’s just the end of you, you can’t make it a habit to fidget more. I don’t think that’s realistic. But for example if you… If before you would… I don’t know, as an example I’m just… This is off the top of my head, as an example you hire cleaning people to come and clean your apartment while you would sit and watch the TV. You know what? I’m not gonna do anymore now, I’m gonna clean the apartment, I’m gonna do the dishes, I’m gonna do all this stuff. Well, now you’re you’re gonna be getting more NEAT in and it’s not… It’s deliberate in that you’ve stopped hiring these people, but it’s still not planned exercise, right? It’s still like you’re just doing as part of your daily activities or taking the trash out. Or instead of ordering groceries you go out and you get them and you walk to the grocery store. These are things that all add up that are not necessarily planned, but unless… I don’t know, yeah.


0:47:09.0 Mike Vacanti: No, great points.


0:47:12.0 Jordan Syatt: There are other aspects like blinking, fidgeting all that stuff. I think about there are… When I was in school and I got really antsy, I would start fidgeting and I’d start like making jokes, looking around, dah, dah, dah. I was just like, it was really difficult. Whereas there were other kids who could just sit there totally content and fine and just be still and pay attention and I’d be like my heart rate would increase. I’d be like what’s going on, what’s going on, like, let’s do this, let’s do that. I was like, I’m gonna get up, I’m gonna go outside, I’m gonna see if anyone’s in the hallway, it’s like super difficult to sit still. So yeah, I think a lot of it can be habitual though.


0:48:03.4 Mike Vacanti: I wonder for those people who adjust their schedule or make the decision to clean themselves rather than outsource it, if there’s like a total NEAT, like a total daily NEAT that auto regulates so when they increase their NEAT in one area it reduces in another area or not.


0:48:11.6 Jordan Syatt: That’s interesting.


0:48:13.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, like if it’s… What is causing it, if it’s they just fidget and toe tap because that’s what they do while they’re doing a particular thing or because they’re like out of balance, but when you add the extra 150 calorie expenditure from insert activity then when they’re still doing the same task at their desk later they fidget a little bit less because it balances out, I don’t know.


0:48:36.6 Jordan Syatt: That’s very interesting. That would be cool to see.


0:48:39.7 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know how you would figure that out nor if…


0:48:43.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, and I would imagine like let’s say if someone has a certain level of NEAT, but they’re not exercising but then all of a sudden you start having them exercise I wonder if their NEAT would drop because of that energy expenditure just from exercising.


0:49:14.7 Mike Vacanti: Dude when I’m… When I’m cutting I just lay around. My activity in a deficit compared to a surplus is absolutely mind-blowing.




0:49:14.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, you know what’s interesting though is watching… ‘Cause I know living in New York man, the number of steps we could get just throughout the day regularly was insane on a normal day and you and I were talking about this recently how you would easily get 20,000 steps just walking across the city going… Whatever it is, it’s like… But once you go to, I don’t know, more suburban lifestyle and you don’t have to walk as much, I wonder if NEAT then increases in your house right? Now like you go into your basement and like you deliberately do these like… You run around in your basement, you get your cardio in that way which obviously isn’t NEAT ’cause that’s planned exercise but it’s like maybe you just feel that like, I need to get up and move which is like ’cause you’re not getting it as much as you were in New York.


0:50:14.2 Mike Vacanti: Absolutely I think that’s correct. I also think the other area that’s affected is hunger and caloric intake as a result of expenditure in which when you’re not looking or trying to hit specific targets. I remember not only 20,000-25,000 steps a day walking all over the city, but waited, with a backpack with a computer and a lot of stuff in it and so I remember periods of time where I was eating 4000 calories a day for months and not gaining scale weight which is wild, but then being in a less active, lower total daily energy expenditure lifestyle my natural hunger and intuition towards food if I’m not tracking I’m not gonna be anywhere near 4000. So the lack of… The lower amount of activity actually leads to less hunger and slightly lower intake.


0:51:09.1 Jordan Syatt: Dude you know what I was… In regard to hunger and this is taking a different turn but what’s interesting to me about hunger especially being in this cut is when I calorie count, when I meticulously track calories, I get way hungrier than when I just loosely track and not meticulous with it. Which I think is very interesting, if I’m meticulously weighing and measuring which I’m not doing during this cut, I get so much hungrier and essentially in my brain the way it works is I start counting down how many calories I have left for the rest of the day which is makes it like a almost like well eventually I’m gonna have to stop. It’s like, the day is revolves around when I have to stop eating. But when I’m more loose with it like I am during this mini cut and like I’ve been for many many years it’s like I’m just gonna reduce portion size I know this is what I normally eat. I wanna eat the same foods now just smaller portion sizes, hunger is not an issue at all. Like not even remotely an issue and it really boils down to me for like how meticulous I get with the numbers.


0:52:21.4 Jordan Syatt: And I wonder if that has to do with me not being much of a number person to begin with ’cause for you you’re a numbers guy and you’re super good with numbers and the math and I wonder do you notice hunger increase or decrease based on how strict you’re being with tracking your calories or macros?


0:52:39.9 Mike Vacanti: What you’re describing sounds like it’s purely psychological, right? It’s not like a fit… Here’s what you’re not saying, you’re not saying, when I meticulously track I end up eating 200 to 300 calories less a day than when I loosely track therefore I’m hungrier ’cause I’m eating fewer calories. What you’re saying is, the hyper focus on the perfection of nailing the numbers puts you in a different state of mind that leads you to be hungrier later.


0:53:13.6 Mike Vacanti: No, I don’t know if it necessarily has to do with… Maybe it’s that I like numbers. I think part of it is that I’m so okay with overeating one night in a cut that that pressure of, I have to be perfect every day, I’ll allow myself if I’m super hungry at night, one night in a cut like, all right I’m gonna go 500-600 calories over my target I need something else here before bed and yeah don’t make a habit of it, but so maybe like having that like built in way out, I don’t know.


0:53:53.4 Jordan Syatt: So it for me, it’s not that and actually I think I’ve figured out what it is. Do you remember the Martin Berkhan article years and years and years ago?


0:54:01.6 Mike Vacanti: Let me guess, let me guess, let me guess. I do. Oh, what is it, no, go ahead.


0:54:09.3 Jordan Syatt: Boredom is the enemy of hunger, and for me when I focus on the numbers I just think about food much more. Food is essentially always top of mind because, okay, cool these are the numbers, this is how much I have left, dah, dah, dah, I’ve got to think and I’ve got a plan dah, dah, dah. And I think because maybe because I’m not a numbers guy it’ll take me longer to plan ahead and I think about food more and it becomes more of a thing that I have to pay attention to. Whereas for you because maybe you’re better with numbers, it’s like cool, cool, cool, done. Awesome, done. Now it’s out of mind, out of sight. It’s out of sight, out of mind whatever I don’t have to think about it. So I think it’s because when I’m just loosely tracking and it’s not that I have no issue going over my calories one day and like that’s fine that’s no problem, but when I’m just loosely tracking I’m not super meticulous with it there’s zero issues, because it’s not always on my mind.


0:55:00.8 Jordan Syatt: But once it becomes super, hey, all right, let’s weigh, let’s measure, let’s be way more rigid with it, now it’s always top of mind and then it becomes more of like, well, now am I actually… If I see a commercial for food you’re gonna get hungry just ’cause now you’re thinking about food, right? So that’s what I think it’s more like because it’s more top of mind than a more regular basis throughout the day, hunger will increase just because I’m thinking about it more.


0:55:27.8 Mike Vacanti: That makes complete sense to me. I think that was my introduction to the Marshmallow Test too.


0:55:36.5 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah.


0:55:36.6 Mike Vacanti: Right? Wasn’t that in that article?


0:55:38.1 Jordan Syatt: Yes, yes exactly.


0:55:40.3 Mike Vacanti: Like thinking about food so much that’s what’s causing you to overeat?


0:55:43.9 Jordan Syatt: Yes exactly.


0:55:45.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I think that’s actually highly plausible and something that I have witnessed in certain usually more type A clients, the hyper focus on food measuring. Yeah, like you said, just thinking about it consistently for a substantial percentage of the day creates more hunger or whether it’s hunger just like leads to more overeating.


0:56:13.0 Jordan Syatt: Which is tough from a coaching perspective ’cause you don’t want clients to go through that but being able to loosely track is I think dependent on first tracking meticulously. I think you can’t accurately loosely track if you haven’t meticulously tracked first.


0:56:30.7 Mike Vacanti: Absolutely.


0:56:31.7 Jordan Syatt: I think even just having a client for 30 days, hey we’re gonna meticulously track for these 30 days and then switch into a more sustainable loose tracking protocol might be a good option for someone who’s like, I’m just hungry all the time. I can’t stop thinking about food. It’s like, okay cool, we’re gonna do this for 30 days then we’re gonna switch into something a little bit less rigid, might be good for that type of person.


0:56:55.3 Mike Vacanti: 100%. If someone comes to you, overweight, wants to lose body fat that’s their main goal and you know several weeks or even months go by and they’re not making progress and they’re loose tracking, it’s like, okay, we need to tighten things up a little bit. Funny enough, all of the examples rushing to mind right now of the people I just describes, those type A people, hyper focused on food, like spending a lot of their day thinking about food are already lean and are killing it and don’t need to be so meticulous to make more progress. They actually would benefit psychologically and physiologically from just slightly taking their foot off the gas.


0:57:38.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, that makes sense.


0:57:39.9 Mike Vacanti: Wanna fire up an Instagram question?


0:57:42.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s fire up an IG Q.


0:57:47.6 Mike Vacanti: Let’s see who we got in there.


0:57:48.0 Jordan Syatt: I see a lot of these tweet swipe posts lately.


0:57:53.0 Mike Vacanti: In your feed?


0:57:55.2 Jordan Syatt: On Instagram a lot of people, they’ll, like, do a tweet and then you… They have a message and then they swipe to the next message, swipe to the next message, so now instead of being limited to one tweet, they’re like, they’re using the swipe post style in order to get multiple tweets across. I see those actually doing very well.


0:58:12.3 Mike Vacanti: You’re gonna play around with them?


0:58:12.8 Jordan Syatt: From their own performance perspective. Yeah, it looks like… It looks as though this type of post seems to be really favored right now on Instagram, which is nice because it’s not just another reel, which those are super heavily favored right now, but I think that they’re also… That they don’t want to become TikTok so they’re… I think they’re trying to bring back some of the old style, which is good, because I just hate making everything a reel. It’s just fucking annoying.


0:58:41.2 Mike Vacanti: Funny enough, that actually… I remember… Correct me if I’m wrong here. I remember you stopping making tweet posts on Instagram when they were killing it performance wise, because your sole goal wasn’t audience growth at the time, you were less interested in purely just doing the style of content that would maximize organic growth. Are you thinking about doing tweet posts again?


0:59:14.9 Jordan Syatt: No, I brought it up mainly just because, I think it’s important for people listening to hear that. Like, I’m not in a content creation… Here’s the way I think about it. Feed posts, regardless of the post are designed to grow your audience. You could create… There is obviously depth that you can create with it, but generally, feed is more growth based and I would say story is more depth based, depending on how you use it. And I’m just not in a growth mindset in terms of audience… Building a bigger audience. I just… It’s… It doesn’t… That used to really motivate me. Like, building a bigger audience used to be like, main motivation, get more eyeballs, get more attention, attention is the asset allegory. But now it’s more just like, I don’t need or want more attention in my life. [chuckle] It’s like, I have plenty of people, let’s just create more depth with them. So, I’m far less focused on the feed posts regardless of the style.


1:00:18.3 Mike Vacanti: I find this conversation absolutely fascinating, so we can set your Instagram question aside.


1:00:26.5 Jordan Syatt: Cool.


1:00:27.3 Mike Vacanti: Why does… What are the reasons growth doesn’t interest you right now?


1:00:33.7 Jordan Syatt: Many. Number one I would say, dude, there’s so much. I’ll go off in no particular order of importance, like, there’s just all aspects. Number one is, it takes a lot of time and effort in order to grow, in order to make these posts deliberately designed to grow and quite frankly, I don’t have the desire to put that time and effort in. It’s like, I would rather spend that time hanging out on the floor with my baby or I don’t know, studying jujitsu or doing Q&A’s or whatever it is, which I know don’t have as much growth potential, but this is just what I would rather be doing, right? It’s like, where I… My preference. So, there’s that aspect and there’s the…


1:01:31.2 Mike Vacanti: Which is so cool, because when the like… More, more, more is what’s valued by so many in society, like, you intentionally letting your foot off the gas in one aspect of life and focusing on other things is impressive. And I think probably the right decision.


1:01:52.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I mean, definitely for me and where I’m at right now, 27-year-old me would be like, loser. [chuckle] But there’s that, there’s also… And you and I talk about this in the mentorship all the time, but if you have 500 followers, that’s a lot of eyeballs on you. That’s a lot of eyeballs, it’s a lot of attention and you got 500 people following you, if you stood in a room with 500 people, you’d probably shit your pants if you had to [chuckle] talk in front of all of them. But people are like, oh, I just don’t have enough followers, or I don’t have enough… No, it’s like, you don’t have enough of a good relationship with your followers. And so for me, I have plenty of followers, there’s no lack of them at this point. They’re like, I… If I was to talk to everyone individually, it would take me a really long time, like, years and years and years and years and years. So, at this point the issue isn’t growth. Now I just like, how about I just develop a closer relationship with as many of the people who follow me as I possibly can.


1:02:54.0 Jordan Syatt: So, one of the greatest things that I’ve been finding really over the last few months has been, it’s very fun for me to see DMs from people and look back through the history of DMs that they’ve sent me. Because as I’ve been more just posting more depth related content, I’ll find… I’ll get DMs from people who DM me now and I’ll look back and the last DM they sent me was like, 2018. And they didn’t send me anything between 2018 and 2022, which tells me that, like, maybe they dropped off or they stopped paying attention, or they stopped seeing my stuff, but now they’re back and maybe now they’re getting more invested in me, again. It’s like, they’re like, lost relationships out there that I can work to rebuild and work to connect with, as opposed to finding someone new, and this is just basic business 101. What’s more expensive, taking on a new client or working with an existing client?


1:03:47.8 Jordan Syatt: It’s like, 10 times more expensive to take on a new one and using that in terms of social media, it’s probably way more difficult to take a brand new follower and really get them to trust you versus take someone who already trusted you earlier, they started seeing your content again, it’s like, oh, it’s like, they just fall right back into it. So it’s… I would rather reach out and connect with the people who maybe just haven’t seen my content very much lately or develop a more in-depth relationship with them. And then there’s also the side of the idea of fame just is so repelling to me, it’s… There’s…


1:04:26.2 Mike Vacanti: I was…


1:04:26.3 Jordan Syatt: This… I…


1:04:26.5 Mike Vacanti: We’re so down [chuckle] and I was literally going to go right there and speculate on another reason.


1:04:32.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, this is the idea of having more eyeballs on me, is just… I don’t want it at all, especially now that I have a kid and I would love to have more kids and spend more time with my family. You know, who I look at? I look at someone like John Berardi. John Berardi is just a huge inspiration of mine in terms of, he sold Precision Nutrition and I don’t want to sell Syatt Fitness, but this guy built one of the most amazing fitness companies in the world and he made a post recently, where he’s like, yeah, I sold it and now I spend my days… My days are based around homeschooling my kids. Like, that’s what I spend my time on, and I was like, man…


1:05:19.7 Mike Vacanti: That’s awesome.


1:05:20.2 Jordan Syatt: That’s awesome… Like, this guy has built one of the biggest companies in the fitness industry and he’s like, yeah, now I’m done, now I’m just a family man. It’s like, that’s really… I don’t need… I don’t think it’s good for me to have so much focus on growth when my family is right there. It’s like, how about focus on the family instead of these other people that are on my phone.


1:05:41.3 Mike Vacanti: So it’s about that aspect of it, it’s about time allocation, spending more time with your wife and daughter versus that time needed to grow. Is there also a component of hyper-fame and what that lifestyle would look like or what privacy would look like, what safety risks would look like for your family?


1:06:06.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, 100%.


1:06:08.2 Mike Vacanti: And then, the other element and what’s very interesting, a couple of weeks ago I was in… I was back in New York City, I was coaching Gary for a few workouts in person and I was walking down like, I don’t know somewhere near Penn Station on the west side of Manhattan, and this guy’s like, I got a white t-shirt on, I got my headphones and I’m walking this way, this guy’s walking this way and he’s like, Mike. And I’m like, do I know? Like, do I recognize? ‘Cause I don’t… [chuckle] I don’t… I get recognized like, twice a year at this point. And I was like, what’s up, man? Like, I wasn’t sure if I had met him before or not. He’s like, Cooper, big fan of your YouTube, da-da-da, like… It’s been four years, like, you gotta get posting again. [laughter] Where have you been? Like, really, really good. Like, funny dude, he’s like, yeah, I’ve been following for a long time. And it was a very like… It didn’t do anything for me.


1:07:06.2 Jordan Syatt: Interesting.


1:07:06.8 Mike Vacanti: It felt like a friend. It literally felt like I was bumping into a friend on the street and like, talking to him, that’s awesome, I appreciate you saying hi. Whereas in 2015, 2016, if I got recognized and I’m embarrassed to say this, I’d be like, I’m the man. [laughter] I’m awesome. People know me. Literally, those were thoughts in my head. And I don’t know if it’s just age and growing up and learning or realizing that like, I don’t know what necessarily has changed, but my desire and it hasn’t been there for a long time, but that was a real moment where I was like, oh, I really… Like, being recognized, having any degree of micro fame isn’t interesting to me at all. And it was almost relieving that that isn’t… You know? That that part is dormant in me.


1:08:11.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah. So that interaction did not in any way shape or form, light any spark for you to get back to making content.


1:08:18.0 Mike Vacanti: The opposite.


1:08:21.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


1:08:22.4 Mike Vacanti: Literally the opposite. No, no, no, no, let me try and articulate this. What that interaction did, was it didn’t touch my ego even 1%. Not even 1% did I feel good that I got… Literally not even 1%. And I know for many reasons that I don’t want fame, that being one of them, the fact that that didn’t do anything for me actually made me more likely and more excited about making more content. ‘Cause I don’t want that. I don’t want that to feed that creature, but if that creature isn’t… I remember someone asking Jordan Peterson about his rise to fame and how that affects him personally and personal relationships and he’s like, something along the lines of like, I’m in my 50s. I’m like… Maybe if I was a younger man, maybe if I was like in a different lifestyle, maybe if I was… Like, it would affect me, but it’s like, the accolades and the eyeballs and the praise and everyone going up to him and saying you changed my life, thank you so much, like, he was saying that doesn’t hit his ego, he thinks because he’s just older and I don’t know, something about it being a different time in his life.


1:09:38.5 Jordan Syatt: That is very interesting. So that… Or now that the potential of that creature essentially not living there anymore, living… It makes you more excited to make content, ’cause you’d be less likely to do it for the validation of other… From others and more because you just wanna make content around what you wanna make.


1:10:00.3 Mike Vacanti: More because, subject I’m interested in, desire to help, yeah, financial, like, if I wanted to grow on the backend or change anything on the backend, those are all real motivations. But like, feed the ego, no, which might be a double-edged sword, because feeding the ego is a very powerful motivator for creating. But…


1:10:26.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, and it’s also like, is it possible to create publicly without letting ego get involved at all? I think there’s more of like, a continuum, right? And there’s a continuum of it, but I don’t think it’s possible to not have it involved at all, especially when people say things like, even when people say something just super nice like your content has changed my life. Which is one of the most amazing things someone can say. I think it’s basically impossible to not let that affect your ego even on a small level, right? Like, there’s no way that like, that has zero impact on you.


1:11:07.6 Mike Vacanti: We’ll see.


1:11:08.9 Jordan Syatt: And by you, I’m not saying you, I’m saying in general, everybody. Like, the proverbial you.


1:11:13.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I would have flat out agreed with you two months ago. This interaction made me, who knows, who knows. I think there definitely is, especially in relation to growth rates and ability to… The feedback loops of various comments, engagements, etcetera. But…


1:11:35.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


1:11:37.1 Mike Vacanti: Time will tell, but that was a positive data point. So, fame is not something that you’re interested in, which is another reason for having less of a focus on growth right now and more of a desire on depth with current audience and doing things you’re interested in, spending time with your family.


1:11:57.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s also why I’m back on YouTube every week and doing more long-form videos. It’s funny, someone said the other day, I was doing a Q&A and I did like, tell me something you disagree with me on and someone jokingly wrote, they’re like, I disagree with the length of your YouTube videos. Basically saying like, your YouTube videos are way too long and in my… I actually answered, I was like, that’s by design. Because I don’t want to build a huge audience that only expects or just expects short form content. I would rather have a smaller audience of people who watch an hour YouTube video than have a bigger audience of people who struggle to watch a 60-second reel. And I think that mindset being less about the numbers and views and being more about the depth within the people who really do value what you’re saying is super powerful. Not just from like a mental and emotional health standpoint, but also from a business perspective.


1:13:03.3 Jordan Syatt: This is why we talk about articles and why we… Why we… Our main form of content is a podcast, because it’s not about the vanity metrics that really make the biggest difference on your business. It’s really about how many people do you have that are willing to spend a long time listening to you and hearing what you have to say? It’s like, you don’t need that many people to do that. And that’s… Through doing that I think you just create a small closer knit community that is a much more in tune with your beliefs and thoughts and values, which will… You’re not… I don’t think… It’s much harder to get famous that way.


1:13:54.3 Mike Vacanti: Well, good if that’s not the goal.


1:13:56.2 Jordan Syatt: Exactly. And that’s a good thing.


1:13:58.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


1:14:00.4 Jordan Syatt: I’m thinking of, I don’t know, Rogan or whatever it is, like, you could get famous doing that, but it’s not very likely. It’s more like, a smaller closer knit community of people that are just… They love you for you, and that’s… I would rather have that than fame.


1:14:16.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I actually think by making your videos longer and… You can think of YouTube videos as trying to acquire new audience, basically picking a flashy thumbnail, title, like, something that’s really has potential to perform well, run the metrics, look at hashtags, really try and make that video, get new people to see your channel or… And these definitely overlap, but or you make a video where the sole intent is to educate your current audience, entertain your current audience, help your current audience. And those are different at times. And one is focused more on growth, the other is focused more on depth.


1:15:03.4 Jordan Syatt: That’s exactly right.


1:15:03.6 Mike Vacanti: Good episode. I think that was probably the last time we’ll play the guessing game to start things off or maybe we’ll…


1:15:10.6 Jordan Syatt: We can do it again, [chuckle] just with a less obscure exercise [chuckle] that I’ve never seen you do.




1:15:21.0 Mike Vacanti: Bro, I do it right over here.


1:15:22.6 Jordan Syatt: Do you?


1:15:23.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, laying right off the steps.


1:15:26.7 Jordan Syatt: What size plate?


1:15:27.8 Mike Vacanti: Not heavy.


1:15:29.2 Jordan Syatt: Five pound?


1:15:30.7 Mike Vacanti: No, on extension, that’ll be a little 10 and a five.


1:15:34.1 Jordan Syatt: Oh, wow.


1:15:34.8 Mike Vacanti: High rep, 15 to 20.


1:15:37.2 Jordan Syatt: My neck is so stiff from getting choked out at that competition still. I need to do more iron neck.


1:15:45.2 Mike Vacanti: Oh man.


1:15:45.5 Jordan Syatt: That you bought me.


1:15:46.3 Mike Vacanti: That was 10 days ago?


1:15:47.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. My neck is still stiff from it.


1:15:50.2 Mike Vacanti: Wow.


1:15:50.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


1:15:52.5 Mike Vacanti: Thank you everyone very much for listening. Weekly uploads, please leave a five star review, it helps us grow the podcast. We will see you soon. Have a great day.


1:16:03.8 Jordan Syatt: Have a good one.

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