Episode 137: Body Dysmorphia, Depression, and The Fable of The Mexican Fisherman

0:00:09.4 Mike Vacanti: Hello, Jordan.

0:00:12.5 Jordan Syatt: What’s up, Michael?

0:00:13.4 Mike Vacanti: Hang on. Am I hearing you through your mic? I don’t know if I am.

0:00:17.6 Jordan Syatt: Lemme check. Yeah. Through my mic.

0:00:20.3 Mike Vacanti: Okay.

0:00:21.0 Jordan Syatt: Am I hearing you through your mic?

[laughter]

0:00:24.1 Mike Vacanti: From the top.

0:00:25.5 Jordan Syatt: No, just keep all this in the podcast.

0:00:28.3 Mike Vacanti: No, it’s not good… It’s not good content.

0:00:30.2 Jordan Syatt: Dude, this is great… This is a great hook. This is what they call a hook.

0:00:33.5 Mike Vacanti: This is not…

0:00:34.7 Jordan Syatt: Get them hooked in first three seconds.

0:00:38.3 Mike Vacanti: This is a terrible hook.

[laughter]

0:00:39.1 Jordan Syatt: What’s up man? How are you?

0:00:42.6 Mike Vacanti: How’s 3:10 to Yuma?

0:00:44.1 Jordan Syatt: Well, the first I would say…

0:00:47.1 Mike Vacanti: Well, hang on, are we gonna give spoilers?

0:00:48.8 Jordan Syatt: All right. We’re gonna spoil the movie 3:10 to Yuma, which is I think over 15 years old. So if you don’t want to hear… It’s a v… The cast is great. The movie I’d say as a whole was really good. I think the first half was just phenomenal. Second half it really started to fall off, and then the last 15 minutes to the last 20 minutes really took a turn for the worst. But I still… What would you rate it out of 10.

0:01:21.0 Mike Vacanti: On an IMDB scale?

0:01:22.8 Jordan Syatt: Just on a Michael Vacanti scale?

0:01:26.0 Mike Vacanti: Seven max.

0:01:27.2 Jordan Syatt: Oh, wow. Because of the ending?

0:01:29.2 Mike Vacanti: Well, yeah, I mean it…

0:01:30.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:01:31.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:01:32.2 Jordan Syatt: I feel like it could have…

0:01:33.5 Mike Vacanti: Maybe a six.

0:01:35.1 Jordan Syatt: Wow. Geez. Started off so strong.

0:01:38.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I mean, like I told you, I didn’t believe that the villain would like, have this change in heart just from seeing the protagonist live righteously. He doesn’t seem like the type of guy to do that. I don’t know what would’ve spurred him to do that. Maybe I need to give it another watch, actually, because now I’m having other thoughts pop into my mind.

0:02:01.2 Jordan Syatt: Part of me, I know it would’ve ruined the pure good of Dan’s character, but part of me would’ve liked to have seen Dan and the bad guy, Ben partner up in some capacity. I felt like that was the direction it was going in.

0:02:24.5 Mike Vacanti: It seemed like it.

0:02:26.2 Jordan Syatt: And, I don’t not like that they didn’t because it kept in line with how pure good Dan was. Right? It was like he didn’t sacrifice his morals, his ethics, nothing. He was like, he stayed exactly who he was and what he believed was right. Always right until the end. But another variation of that ending could have been them partnering up in with some capacity, which would’ve been very cool.

0:02:57.1 Mike Vacanti: Would’ve been entertaining for sure.

0:03:00.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah. Always fun to see a good guy get corrupt. [laughter] In a movie.

[laughter]

0:03:07.4 Mike Vacanti: You, my friend, still need to watch Count of Monte Cristo.

0:03:10.8 Jordan Syatt: Count… Which I’m gonna watch tomorrow. I’m gonna start it tomorrow morning. Tomorrow morning cardio.

0:03:14.5 Mike Vacanti: Because you’re hitting workouts and cardio first thing in the AM these days, huh?

0:03:18.9 Jordan Syatt: Dude, I’m… Yeah, it’s just… It’s what everyone should just do it. I’ve done it for years and…

[laughter]

0:03:27.7 Mike Vacanti: “I’ve done it for a week.”

[laughter]

0:03:30.2 Jordan Syatt: I’m in the middle of my journey, all right? I’ve been… I’m right in the middle of it.

0:03:34.4 Mike Vacanti: Right smack dab in the center.

0:03:36.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. No but…

0:03:37.5 Mike Vacanti: Are you fiddling with your microphone?

0:03:40.7 Jordan Syatt: No, I’m fiddling with the gripper. I’ll stop it.

0:03:44.8 Mike Vacanti: Got it. That’s all right.

0:03:45.0 Jordan Syatt: You’re getting that feedback, the audio feedback.

0:03:46.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:03:46.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. David’s not gonna be happy. Sorry, David.

0:03:49.9 Mike Vacanti: Oh, this though… This is pure.

[laughter]

0:03:53.2 Jordan Syatt: What’s up with you, man?

0:03:57.2 Mike Vacanti: What do you wanna know?

0:03:58.4 Jordan Syatt: I wanna know, how are you, Michael Vacanti?

0:04:05.4 Mike Vacanti: I’m solid.

0:04:06.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah?

0:04:07.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:04:09.0 Jordan Syatt: Good. I’m glad to hear that.

[laughter]

0:04:16.2 Mike Vacanti: How are you, Jordan?

0:04:17.4 Jordan Syatt: I feel like that would be… That’s man, there’s so many variations of English. If someone didn’t know English very well, if English wasn’t their first language and someone just, they heard someone say, I’m solid. That would be so confusing coming from me like really trying to get better. When I started learning Hebrew, I knew literally nothing. And it’s difficult when you’re learning a language to hear someone say something and you just take it literally. You learn the literal meaning of every word. And you hear like I’m solid because wait, what like why would they say that and they must have misheard is yeah, I don’t know. Random tangent.

0:04:58.3 Mike Vacanti: No, I meant it literally. I’m literally solid.

0:05:01.0 Jordan Syatt: You are solid.

0:05:01.7 Mike Vacanti: I’m dense physically.

0:05:03.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:05:03.3 Mike Vacanti: Dense.

0:05:03.6 Jordan Syatt: Mr. Olympia 2027.

0:05:06.6 Mike Vacanti: No, that’s…

0:05:08.3 Jordan Syatt: Maybe 2028. All right. I’ll give you a year.

0:05:11.1 Mike Vacanti: I’m not… Unfortunately as much as I enjoy the solid strength training session now and again it’s not worth the sacrifices that it would take to… Well, first of all of course…

0:05:17.2 Jordan Syatt: Now and again, you do it every week or multiple times a week.

[laughter]

0:05:26.6 Mike Vacanti: No, no, no.

0:05:27.2 Jordan Syatt: Now you say it like it’s a couple times. Yeah. I like to train now and again.

[laughter]

0:05:31.9 Mike Vacanti: No, what I meant was, now and again, there’s a strength training session that is so enjoyable. That it’s like, wow, should I try to lift weights for a living? But the costs aren’t worth it.

0:05:45.6 Jordan Syatt: Like the actual monetary cost of all of the drugs needed to take in order to achieve that, that is a huge cost.

0:05:53.0 Mike Vacanti: No, no, no, no, no. That… [laughter] No, that’s not what I meant. I meant the physiological cost on my body of taking all of those drugs.

0:06:02.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. That coupled with the cost of that drug. Yeah.

0:06:06.4 Mike Vacanti: Well, sure. Plus the cost of the steroids, but yeah, it’s not optimal for health, which isn’t… That’s not why those guys are doing it. And it doesn’t take away from what they’re doing either.

0:06:19.9 Jordan Syatt: A lot of those guys start doing it from a place of body dysmorphia, not because they’re trying to be champion, and then all of a sudden they’re like, I’ve got a knack for this. And then that’s like the one thing they’re really good at. And then it grows into a passion and… But I think a lot of it stems from a body dysmorphia view themselves, not because they actually wanna be championed from the beginning.

0:06:39.8 Mike Vacanti: I think the fitness industry needs a pendulum swing away from body dysmorphia.

[laughter]

0:06:46.8 Mike Vacanti: I think [laughter] we’ve had enough body dysmorphia. I mean, not the people who genuinely struggle with body dysmorphia. But like the every single person who ever lifted weights has body dysmorphia, because why would you wanna change yourself if you saw yourself incorrect? Like, enough [laughter] Maybe some, I think, I actually believe what creates most bodybuilders is breakups. And that’s an old saying, breakups make bodybuilders, but I think it’s anger and pain, and weightlifting becomes the outlet that creates the majority of world-class physiques more so than, a mental disorder where they see themselves in a way that is different from reality.

0:07:34.2 Jordan Syatt: I don’t think… When I say body dysmorphia, I don’t mean that most people are going to the gym necessarily because, they have, a traditional view body dysmorphia of their body. But maybe for a breakup, for example, we could use that exact same situation. They have a breakup and then the guy that the girl starts seeing or whatever, is much bigger than him, or she sees himself relative to other guys and just wants to be bigger because he sees himself as smaller, relatively. And then, I think, and, there is especially more recently research coming out, showing that people who participate in those things do have significantly more body dysmorphia relative to other people. But I think, it’s not one or the other. I think often it would probably go hand in hand.

0:08:24.6 Mike Vacanti: I don’t think most guys who start weightlifting after a breakup are doing it because the girl is with a guy who has more muscle. I think it’s because putting yourself in a place where you have an avenue to see progress and take up your time and get, the physiological benefits and like, see progress in any arena, makes you feel good post breakup. I don’t think, it’s that literal, but we can talk about the research around body dysmorphia. What’s that about?

0:08:58.6 Jordan Syatt: I know for me, any of those times when I was younger, whether it was a breakup or anything…

0:09:04.6 Mike Vacanti: You’re not a bodybuilder. You’ve never been a bodybuilder.

0:09:06.2 Jordan Syatt: No, I know, but I’m just, it’s a different, we’ll go a different route then. That’s fine. I’m saying for me, like a lot, like every rep was an I’ll show you rep, like I’ll show you type, that’s like where that, it was like, I’ll show you like, getting stronger, getting bigger. That, fueled those angry where it was like, “I’ll show you.” That’s where so much of that came from.

0:09:27.4 Mike Vacanti: I’ll show you fuels, fueled Amazon fueled Tesla fueled, like all of these legends in business have a story of getting bullied, getting beat up, getting etcetera. I’ll show you, for sure. But is that a bad thing?

0:09:45.4 Jordan Syatt: No, no. I just, they made me think about that. I was like the, I remember being in my high school gym with the, “I’ll show you” reps.

0:09:51.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, absolutely. But what’s the researcher on body dysmorphia?

0:09:55.7 Jordan Syatt: Oh man. There’s some really interesting research that has come out recently. Ben Carpenter, has spoken a lot about it. But, for a long time there wasn’t actual legitimate research on bodybuilders and physique competitors and body dysmorphia. And what recent research has been finding is that specifically in regard to the more they do it, the worse it gets, which, I found was very interesting. So, the longer that someone spends competing, and actually Phil Heath had a amazing, I made a whole video on what Phil Heath said probably maybe two to four months ago. Phil Heath, one of the greatest bodybuilders, arguably the greatest bodybuilder of all time.

0:10:48.0 Jordan Syatt: But one of the greatest bodybuilders of all time, had a video in the last couple months in which he was like, I’ve got body dysmorphia and it’s the worst it’s ever been, the last like, couple of years. And, this guy has won like Mr. Olympia multiple times over one of the greatest bodybuilders. And it goes along with what the research has been showing that the longer you do something that is purely focused on how you look, the more likely you are to develop. And the worse your body dysmorphia gets, which could potentially go against what I said, which is they got into it because they had body dysmorphia. Maybe it’s doing it for longer, actually exacerbates it, which I mean, if you’re being judged on your physique and every waking moment is spent on trying to make certain parts of your body change, like it’s very easy for me to see how that would happen.

0:11:28.2 Mike Vacanti: I think you and I see such different things because like the, population you’re talking about is a population that is physic, we’ll just say like physically lean plus decent amount of lean mass. Which is like, a hyper fitness, group of people, which is in the content. Which are in the comment section, which are following you, engaging, etcetera. In the real world, no one is jacked. Yeah. Like [laughter] No one, you walk down the street, no one. No one lifts in the real world.

0:12:10.5 Jordan Syatt: Some people do, obviously there’s exaggeration.

0:12:14.1 Mike Vacanti: But like the percentage of Americans who are overweight or obese, like, we don’t have a problem at scale of body dysmorphia. We have a problem at scale of obesity and of overconsumption.

0:12:27.3 Jordan Syatt: Of course. Of course yeah.

0:12:27.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And so, I don’t know.

0:12:31.7 Jordan Syatt: I do think there’s like…

0:12:34.9 Mike Vacanti: It feels like it gets a lot of attention for what it is…

0:12:35.6 Jordan Syatt: So, to be fair.

0:12:37.9 Mike Vacanti: And maybe I’m being unempathetic. Go ahead.

0:12:45.5 Jordan Syatt: I mean, I think it’s, I think it gets a lot of attention and, I will say, like, I actually, I’m glad it’s gotten a lot of attention because I think that it’s been, especially as mental health has become more apparent, one, here’s a statistic that blew me the fuck away. When we look, at mental health, I think usually the first thing that will come to mind is suicide. Suicide rates, mental health. And it’s usually one of the first topics of discussion that comes up around like poor mental health as it should. It’s a huge problem. Eating disorders have a higher rate of death than depression. Excuse me. Eating disorders have a higher rate of death than depression in terms of mental health. And that could be because of actual malnutrition, it could be ’cause of suicides. Layne Norton was talking about this recently. How…

0:13:36.0 Mike Vacanti: On a percentage basis, not an absolute terms.

0:13:38.4 Jordan Syatt: Percentage basis, correct. Which to me is just like, I’m very glad that it gets a huge amount of discussion, especially ’cause that was something that…

0:13:48.4 Mike Vacanti: Hang on, hang on. We’re talking about body dysmorphia. We’re not talking about all eating disorders.

0:13:52.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. But I think body dysmorphia, eating disorders, they go hand in hand. I feel like we can’t really talk about one without bringing up the other.

0:13:58.6 Mike Vacanti: Do you think that could be because eating disorders are more accurately diagnosed, whereas a lot of people who think they have depression have just been playing video games and haven’t been outside in like a year?

0:14:13.0 Jordan Syatt: Oh, dude, that’s a great topic of discussion.

0:14:15.0 Mike Vacanti: Which massively increases the denominator of that equation, which would lead to the percentage change? I don’t know. But yes, I’m not talking about anorexia or bulimia. I’m talking specifically about body dysmorphia.

0:14:31.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I think that that plays a huge role. I also listen, I’m not a doctor, I’m not a psychologist, psychiatrist, any of that, but there’s also the whole discussion we made that depression has been over diagnosed in recent years. Like, especially just doctors are often over-diagnosing it in order to give medication on it, and whereas people who just, if they got outside in the sun, took their shoes off and not their… Obviously depression is very real. I’m not saying this is for everyone, but I think for many people, oftentimes they’re, what they perceive to be depression or maybe even what they’ve been told is depression could actually be resolved or almost resolved through social interaction, finding something that gives them a great… One of the struggles with depression is it often makes you not want to do anything.

0:15:27.7 Jordan Syatt: But another thing that often makes you not wanna do anything is looking at your phone all day, scrolling through Instagram, scrolling through TikTok. And I feel like people are just comparing themselves to these fake images, these fake ideas of what other people are doing, which then causes them to feel depressed. And I think there’s a major difference between feeling depressed and having depression. And so a lot of people who feel depressed are being told that they have depression. And we needed to make that huge distinction there and understanding that, “Hey, put your fucking phone down, go outside, get a workout and chase something you’re passionate about, and if you don’t have something you’re passionate about, try something. Go to a class, go to whatever, any of these different things”. But also making the distinction between having depression and feeling depressed is a very under-discussed topic nowadays.

0:16:18.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And again, I don’t know where you draw the line between those two, because I’m not a medical professional and I’m not gonna toe the line on this conversation. I feel like I’ve said enough.

[laughter]

0:16:31.1 Jordan Syatt: Okay.

0:16:32.8 Mike Vacanti: Man you really think body dysmorphia is a bigger issue than the complete opposite of it?

0:16:38.9 Jordan Syatt: Than obesity?

0:16:40.3 Mike Vacanti: No. The opposite isn’t obesity, but the opposite is like celebration of obesity. Like Lizzo, like “this is health” on the cover of Cosmo.

0:16:49.7 Jordan Syatt: Yes. I Absolutely think body dysmorphia is a bigger problem than celebration of obesity for sure.

0:16:55.8 Mike Vacanti: Really?

0:16:55.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I very much believe that because I think that it’s a great conversation topic, I’ve gotten…

0:17:06.0 Mike Vacanti: But give it to me real. Give it to me real.

0:17:08.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I’m not gonna not give it to you real, so here’s why I think it’s not as big of an issue. It looks to me as though the health at every size movement has lost an unbelievable amount of steam. I think it peaked and it bottomed out very quickly. Whereas if I’m looking at body dysmorphia, it’s a much longer, much slower build. It’s like a fire getting more, it’s like a wildfire. And it start, and I think it’s getting worse and it’s getting worse, and it’s getting worse for many, many reasons. And I had a lot of people who I can, it’s crazy ’cause I can look back in my DMs and I’ve seen this where people, they followed me and they liked my content and they would send me nice messages. And then in that 2017, 2018, 2019 era, they would message me and be like, “I’ve realized that you’re contributing to diet culture and I’m not gonna follow you anymore and da da da da”.

0:18:11.2 Jordan Syatt: And then in like 2021, 2022, these people come back and they say, “Hey, I fell for that health at every size movement. I gained 40 pounds and now I’m worse off than I was five years ago. I really need your help”. And I’m seeing that these, the celebrations of obesity and the celebrations are relatively short-lived, and it’s a fringe extreme. Whereas body dysmorphia I see affecting people with obesity. I see it affecting people without obesity. I see it affecting people from so many different areas. And it’s something that I’ve seen the celebration of obesity as something that people are actively choosing to do and often something that it’s they almost have to convince themselves of. Whereas body dysmorphia is not that at all. It’s not a choice, it’s not a decision. It’s something that often creeps up without realizing it. And I think it’s a far bigger issue. And I also think that body dysmorphia can lead to depression and can lead to obesity and can lead to all of that, whereas the celebration of obesity, I think it’s garnering so many… It has so many real open, outspoken critics that I don’t see it as big of an issue as actual body dysmorphia…

0:19:38.0 Mike Vacanti: When we talk about body dysmorphia, which is basically seeing something about your physical body that you see as a flaw that isn’t actually a flaw. If you have a guy who is 25% body fat, who is reasonably strong and sees himself as not lean enough, does he have body dysmorphia?

0:20:10.5 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know. I think it’s definitely more complex than that. I don’t think it’s… So here, I think on some level, we all have things about our bodies that we don’t like, right? I think everybody in some capacity has that. I think that it would be interesting for me to look across cultures and see okay, let’s look at, let’s take a tribe in Africa that doesn’t have mirrors, that doesn’t have any… None of this stuff, right? They don’t have modern technology. It would be very interesting for me to look across cultures like what we have here in the United States in a first world country versus a tribe that doesn’t have mirrors that is a native indigenous tribe that they don’t really… Maybe it’s not a huge part of their discussion.

0:21:00.2 Jordan Syatt: I would be so interested to see if they have parts of their body that they don’t like, or if it’s just like, no, I’m really good at hunting, so I feel great, or, no, I’m really good at doing this, or I’m really good at whatever it is. So, I know it’s a little bit of a tangential comment, but, I think that in some capacity, at least everyone in our modern world has things about their body that they don’t like. I don’t think that means that they have body dysmorphia, right? In the same way that you can feel depressed, but you’re… You can feel depressed, but you don’t have depression.

0:21:34.7 Mike Vacanti: Okay.

0:21:35.5 Jordan Syatt: And you can have parts of your body that you don’t like without having body dysmorphia.

0:21:40.3 Mike Vacanti: Then what is body dysmorphia?

0:21:42.8 Jordan Syatt: So that’s the great question. I sort of want to Google it because the way that I view body dysmorphia, if someone is diagnosed with body dysmorphia is sort of in the same way that I imagine that binge eating is diagnosed, right? Because binge eating is one of those things where…

0:21:57.5 Mike Vacanti: But, we should be able to look at… We don’t need a circular definition. We should be able to figure out what it actually is.

0:22:02.8 Jordan Syatt: Right. Well, so, I’ll explain when we… When someone is diagnosed with binge eating disorder, it’s not just… ‘Cause I think it’s actually a perfect comparison. Many… I know there have been times where you’ll say like, yeah, I binged, and then I’ll be like, well, what’d you have? And you’ll tell me. I’ll be like, that’s it. That’s your binge, right? And so in order for someone to be diagnosed with binge eating disorder, there has to be a certain number of criteria met in order to actually say, okay, yes, you have binge eating disorder. It’s not just one thing. It’s not just two things.

0:22:33.4 Mike Vacanti: I don’t use that word. I might have said I was a degenerate and ate a lot. Or something along those lines and then you said that. But I didn’t say I binged.

0:22:40.4 Jordan Syatt: So not you, but other people will say. I binged, and I’ll be like, whatever. Like, what’d you have? And I’ll be like, wow, you had two bowls of cereal. Yeah. Good. That’s not a fucking binge.

0:22:47.9 Mike Vacanti: So they use the word incorrectly.

0:22:50.2 Jordan Syatt: Correct. So, but the other thing is they could have, maybe they binged relative to them, but just because they binged doesn’t mean they have binge eating disorder. Just because someone doesn’t like something about their body doesn’t mean they have body dysmorphia. You know what I… So this is what I’m getting at. It’s like maybe you could have binged but you don’t have binge eating disorder. Does that make sense?

0:23:11.2 Mike Vacanti: Yes. Yeah. I just don’t like the definition by analogy versus first principles.

0:23:17.3 Jordan Syatt: So that’s the thing. I don’t know…

0:23:19.8 Mike Vacanti: “A mental illness involving obsessive focus on a perceived flaw in appearance. The flaw may be minor or imagined, but the person may spend hours a day trying to fix it.” So if it is minor, if it is this last 1% of body fat, if it is these last three pounds, and then I’ll be happy if it is… So a minor flaw or a flaw that doesn’t exist, that’s awful. But I think the majority of people that see their body and want to change it, have legitimate reason to want to change their body. It’s not body dysmorphia. They can see that.

0:23:54.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:23:55.7 Mike Vacanti: If I gained 20 pounds and I was like, oh, I look like crap. I wanna lose weight, I don’t have body dysmorphia. I actually want to get to a place where I feel good about myself.

0:24:04.9 Jordan Syatt: Correct. So I’m looking at… This is the National Institute of Health. It says, “Body dysmorphia is diagnosed in people who are one, concerned about a minimal or non-existent appearance flaw. Two, preoccupied with the perceived flaw. Think about it for at least an hour a day and three experience clinically significant distress or impaired functioning as a result of their concern.” So I don’t know if this is the definitive…

0:24:29.6 Mike Vacanti: That’s a lot.

0:24:30.3 Jordan Syatt: It’s a lot. So I think if someone… The biggest one for me is the last one. The, last one that stands out is experience, a clinically significant distress or impaired functioning as a result of their concern. So for example, if you’re like, Hey, fuck, I’ve got 20 pounds to lose, but then that causes you to eat better and exercise and it’s not causing you to break down and cry and miss work and to sabotage your relationship is just, if it causes you to actually have better habits, that is not body dysmorphia.

0:25:06.3 Jordan Syatt: But if it’s causing you to have negative habits or… And a significant amount, and I don’t know what that clinically significant is, but if it’s actually causing more negatives than positives, that’s when I would imagine that’s body dysmorphia, right? So that’s where I feel like the distinction lies is that clinically significant amount of time and distress that is spent thinking about it. And that going to the gym and working out in order to improve your body and your health is not body dysmorphia. But there’s a difference between going to the gym four times a week and eating better versus going to the gym seven times a week for three hours a day and then… And only eating vegetable. You know what I mean? There’s that clinical significance. That’s the difference.

0:25:47.1 Mike Vacanti: And that makes complete sense. I just think the population doing the three hours a day, seven days a week, only eating vegetables is this big.

0:25:55.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I believe that that vice is one way. That it could be that clinically significant time and energy is spent. But I also think there are other ways outside of the, over exercising and undereating. I think there are ways in which… I’ll give you an example. This is one that goes under the radar and, so oftentimes women who have severe… And I know we’re not talking about anorexia, but oftentimes they go hand in hand. And this we can…

0:26:28.5 Jordan Syatt: How we can… When we’re characterizing body dysmorphia, one of the things that they’ll do is they’ll wear very baggy clothes. They’ll wear very baggy clothes so that to not draw attention to how skinny they are. And so for me, that behavior of they’re not going to change their nutritional habits, they’re not changing, like, “Hey, I need to eat more to gain weight.” Oftentimes they’ll all try to mask this so people don’t get concerned about me, and people don’t make comments to me because they haven’t reached a point in which they can… They feel ready to change it yet. So that to me is a behavior that is likely… And I’m not a doctor clinically significant in terms of they’re changing their wardrobe in order to garner less attention towards this.

0:27:16.1 Jordan Syatt: And they’re not changing their behavior yet because they haven’t gotten to that point. So that for me is another potential behavior. But again, we could even look at people who are significantly obese, who might have body dysmorphia, who they go down a different route of a shame cycle and in which like… Or guilt or whatever it is, where now they avoid going to the gym, they avoid meeting people, they avoid going out in public.

0:27:41.8 Mike Vacanti: But it’s all three. You have to meet all three of the criteria, right?

0:27:46.6 Jordan Syatt: Correct. Yeah. That’s what I would imagine from what I just got from that NIH.

0:27:50.8 Mike Vacanti: Got it. But then it wouldn’t be body dysmorphia because it’s not a minor flaw and it’s not a perceived flaw. And like I’m using, yes, there’s distress. You’re meeting number three, but if you…

0:28:02.3 Jordan Syatt: Let’s see. That’s actually a very good point.

0:28:05.5 Mike Vacanti: If you weigh 400 pounds and you know that you need to lose weight to be healthier, you don’t have body dysmorphia.

0:28:12.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah. So actually I think technically you’re correct there ’cause it says it’s diagnose people who are one, two, and three. It’s not and/or. So I mean, yeah, if someone is 400 pounds and then that’s not a minor flaw, then that’s a real health issue. So I think technically in that case, that’s not body dysmorphia.

0:28:32.3 Mike Vacanti: I like that you said health issue ’cause we’re not saying flaw in who you are as a person, but it is detrimental to your health.

0:28:39.5 Jordan Syatt: It’s not like they have skin folds and they’re like 14% body fat.

0:28:44.7 Mike Vacanti: Exactly.

0:28:45.4 Jordan Syatt: And they’re like, “Oh my God, I’m so fat.” It’s like, no, 400 pounds.

0:28:46.1 Mike Vacanti: Exactly.

0:28:46.8 Jordan Syatt: This isn’t a minor health… This is a real health issue. So I think from that perspective, that actually based on this would not be considered body dysmorphia. That’s like, “Hey, you have a very negative view of your body and it’s actually valid. Let’s try and fix it through positive health behavior change.”

0:29:07.3 Mike Vacanti: We can wrap here, but yeah, I think that it…

0:29:09.3 Jordan Syatt: I think it’s a good talk.

0:29:11.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I agree. But I think it gets more attention on social media than it’s disproportionate to the… What the actual problem is.

0:29:26.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I think… Here’s what I think. I think that there are people on social media who make videos of themselves with the skin fold issues and make it seem like, “Look, I have skin rolls too.” And they do it from a attention seeking perspective. “Look, I’ve got these rolls too. I’m just like you.” And they do it. They want likes, they want views, they want engagement. And from that perspective, those types of posts have become overwhelming and obnoxious. And it’s actually… It’s… There’s actually ill intent behind it because it’s not done to try to help. It’s done to try and increase engagement in which case I completely agree.

0:30:14.4 Jordan Syatt: That stuff is overdone. Actually, it does more harm than good. And this is potentially my bias because of so much of what I went through with binge eating and all that. But I love seeing all the real conversation about it. I just don’t like the contrived energy seeking behaviors and posts about it. And I think those are absolutely overdone in the same way that I think the Health at Every Size Movement is completely overdone. And to be fair, I haven’t seen any posts about the Health at Every Size Movement in a long time. I’ve seen… Dude, I used to get messages about that every day multiple times a day. I haven’t seen anyone talking about that recently.

0:30:58.4 Mike Vacanti: It might… You might be in a different echo chamber now.

0:31:01.8 Jordan Syatt: I hope so.

0:31:02.5 Mike Vacanti: Ever since you put the American flag up in your background and the Health at Every Size just scattered everywhere. [laughter] They’re like, “Oh, we’re done messaging Jordan.”

0:31:11.5 Jordan Syatt: Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, I hope so because those posts really infuriated me. And if I kept seeing that, I’d I continue to make posts about ’em. But do you see… I know you’re not… You’re on a non-scrolling thing, but do you see stuff about it?

0:31:23.6 Mike Vacanti: No, but I am not on there.

0:31:26.3 Jordan Syatt: I did see that Lizzo just apparently got accused of fat shaming some of her backup dancers.

0:31:32.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. It’s…

[laughter]

0:31:33.8 Jordan Syatt: Which is very odd ’cause she…

0:31:38.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I didn’t see that.

0:31:40.2 Jordan Syatt: You didn’t see that?

0:31:41.4 Mike Vacanti: No.

0:31:41.6 Jordan Syatt: Oh, Wow. Yeah, you’ve definitely not been scrolling. That was a big, big thing.

0:31:45.6 Mike Vacanti: I know. I remember when Adele lost weight, people who loved her turned on her and hated her because “you were one of us and now you’re not.”

0:31:52.2 Jordan Syatt: That was so weird.

0:31:53.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:31:54.8 Jordan Syatt: I don’t like it when people say you shouldn’t compliment weight loss. I understand the reasoning behind it because…

0:32:01.0 Mike Vacanti: There’s another one. Okay, there’s a one in 10,000 chance that yes, the person has some form of cancer, which is why they lost weight and it wasn’t intentional. But normally, and you have a little bit of context, you know the person. This friend of mine has always struggled, but he’s been getting after it and he’s lost weight. You can put the puzzle pieces together.

0:32:19.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Exactly. Or even if like… ‘Cause a lot of people don’t say it about someone that you don’t know. And it’s like, “I’m just complimenting them. That’s it. Please, relax. I’m complimenting them.” And it’s like… I don’t know. Yeah. I can say that you look great, period, without you having to worry about like, “Well, you don’t know why they look that way.” It’s like, well, I think they look great. So like, maybe in a moment in which maybe if it is that one in 10,000 person who has cancer, it’s like maybe they were worried about it and like, “Oh, thank you for saying that. I really appreciate it ’cause I was worried about it and you saying that I looked really great actually makes me feel good.” So yeah, I don’t like the idea of not complimenting someone for any number of reasons. I don’t know. That one pisses me off too.

0:33:08.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Is that still a big thing?

0:33:12.8 Jordan Syatt: It’s still a thing. It’s not as big as it was, but it’s still a thing for sure, yeah. I see posts, I’m like, “How to compliment someone without talking about their body.” And I’m like, “I understand the intent, but I feel like it’s going a little bit too far.” Where it’s like, I don’t know. If I see a dude in the gym and I see him working on his shoulders. I’ve seen him in there every day for six months. I’ll be like, “Man, you looked fucking yoked, awesome job.” “Bro, you’ve lost 20 pounds, amazing.”

0:33:42.4 Mike Vacanti: Yep. Eyes light up face lights up, it’s like they’re pumped to hear it.

0:33:46.5 Jordan Syatt: 100%

0:33:48.7 Mike Vacanti: Tips to lose weight with a desk job.

0:33:51.3 Jordan Syatt: Oh bro, bro before we go into that, steel mace training, that club that I got, the steel mace, steel club…

0:34:00.2 Mike Vacanti: You were loving it.

0:34:02.3 Jordan Syatt: Dude, it feels so good, I love it.

0:34:05.6 Mike Vacanti: You sore from it?

0:34:08.4 Jordan Syatt: Not at all. It’s very isometric based and generally not as much soreness comes with isometric style training. I just feel incredible. The loaded mobility, especially with the thoracic movement that came with those movements. The rotation, the flexion, the extension. I just haven’t moved like that. And I feel it’s a… I think that’s a huge problem with modern strength training. I was just talking about this with Mitch, my videographer before we started recording. Even something like rows, dumbbell rows, for example. Obviously, an amazing exercise, or a bent over barbell row might be a better example in this, but it’s a great exercise, but I feel like it’s so single plane bay. It’s just front to back, front to back, that’s it. Just sagittal, sagittal plane, that’s all it is.

0:35:04.3 Jordan Syatt: Whereas I love the idea of getting more movement from your spine involved in these more rotation, more flexion to extension, getting more in the transverse plane, moving in a little bit of a horizontal. I think we’ve been brought up, in a strength and conditioning world that has been so focused on perfect alignment. Everything has to be perfectly aligned and neutral. And I actually think the pendulum has swung way too far.

0:35:41.2 Jordan Syatt: If we look back at old strongman workouts, there’s old, I don’t know what years they were, but those old classic style lifting, they would be bending and they’d be… And they were so strong, but they would be contorting their bodies in all of these ways. And they were strong through all these different ranges of motions and movements and they had… They were so flexible and mobile. It wasn’t like they were just strong by today’s power lifting standards. They were strong and mobile and flexible, and they could lift outrageous amounts of weights over their head while doing splits. It’s like that comes from movement under a load. And oh God, I’m very excited to be incorporating more of this into my training.

0:36:24.0 Mike Vacanti: That’s awesome, bro. You gotta keep us updated on that.

0:36:27.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I was hoping for more excitement on your end, but okay [laughter]

0:36:33.6 Mike Vacanti: You showed me, it looked cool and I’m glad it feels good. And I agree with your assessment of lack of moving the spine within each individual rep of the most common exercises that we do. Did you do a podcast already today?

0:36:49.9 Jordan Syatt: No, why?

0:36:51.4 Mike Vacanti: You got a lot of coins. Can tell you got a lot of coins.

0:36:54.3 Jordan Syatt: Bro, I was just really excited to speak with you.

[laughter]

0:36:56.5 Mike Vacanti: No.

0:36:58.4 Jordan Syatt: Just love speaking with my best friend.

0:37:00.1 Mike Vacanti: You already filmed some stuff with Mitch, I think.

0:37:02.5 Jordan Syatt: No, minimal. A lot of planning for filming stuff.

0:37:06.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, okay. All right.

0:37:08.2 Jordan Syatt: I did have a bowl of oatmeal and then after this podcast, we’re gonna eat a bowl… I just had a straight up bowl of oatmeal, and then I had that at 9:30, and then it’s been now like four, four and a half hours. And then I’m gonna have the bowl of oatmeal with a protein source to test the difference in blood sugar response to see if there’s any change based on just adding the protein to it.

0:37:30.4 Mike Vacanti: Cool. Cool. Keep us updated on that.

0:37:33.2 Jordan Syatt: Cool story, bro. All right. What’s next? What’s next?

0:37:38.3 Mike Vacanti: Tips to lose weight with a desk job.

0:37:39.5 Jordan Syatt: You wanna start?

[laughter]

0:37:44.4 Mike Vacanti: You don’t have to lose weight. Why do you think you need to lose weight?

0:37:52.4 Jordan Syatt: Well, ApoB is super high and…

0:37:57.8 Mike Vacanti: It’s a minor flaw. It falls under minor flaw, continue.

[laughter]

0:38:06.3 Jordan Syatt: And, I don’t wanna go on statins and my blood pressure’s up. I’m only getting 1700 steps a day on a good day. Can’t run around with my kids without being out of breath.

0:38:23.1 Mike Vacanti: It’s a perceived flaw, continue.

[laughter]

0:38:26.2 Jordan Syatt: “These are all perceived, society has put these on you and…”

0:38:32.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, why do you wanna run around with your kids?

0:38:34.1 Jordan Syatt: “I don’t even consider myself part of society at this point, because I’m so against all of these things. It’s not real.”

0:38:44.0 Mike Vacanti: The fact of the matter is so many of us work desk jobs and the mechanics, the mechanism of weight loss works the same. It’s just a little bit… Takes a little bit more planning and effort to get activity in. Nothing’s changing on the intake side. Maybe your daily calorie intake’s a little bit lower than someone who’s in an equal position but has a job where they’re on their feet. But yeah, it’s pretty much the same across the board for the rest of it.

0:39:16.1 Jordan Syatt: What do you think of side bends? The exercise side bends?

0:39:21.0 Mike Vacanti: I’m not a fan of side bends.

0:39:22.7 Jordan Syatt: Why?

0:39:23.5 Mike Vacanti: I’m not a fan of side bends because I think I get enough oblique work through everything else.

0:39:31.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah.

0:39:32.5 Mike Vacanti: And because they’re not loaded properly. If you were to do a side bend correctly, I think you would wanna do it at like somehow locked in with your body, parallel to the ground, holding a dumbbell. So that… It’s like people who do, who are warming up for chest day, and they do these, they hold the weights, and they’re doing this thing with the weights.

0:40:00.4 Jordan Syatt: Internal external rotation standing up.

0:40:01.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:40:03.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:40:03.3 Mike Vacanti: Exactly. It’s like… But the gravity is pulling the weight down. If you’re going to do that external rotation, you should be lying prone doing it.

0:40:13.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:40:14.0 Mike Vacanti: Same thing with side bends, not to mention… I know you like them because Louie liked them, and Louie likes packing muscle on everywhere.

0:40:21.8 Jordan Syatt: I wasn’t gonna say no, that’s not what I was gonna say at all. I think most people do them completely wrong. I was bringing it up because I was just right now bending to the side and trying to feel that spinal lateral flexion. And just thinking, man, I feel like if people did them properly, ’cause I think most people, when they do a side bend, they actually shift the hips too much. It’s coming from their hips, it’s not actually coming from their oblique. For the reasons that you mentioned, because they’re standing up, and they shift the hip, and they’re actually not training their obliques properly. But it would be cool to try a side bend variation that, not necessarily for oblique strength but actually just for spinal movement. Just for getting a bigger range of motion. And from that mid to upper-back range, just like lightweight, not heavy, just trying to take your spine through a bigger range of motion that lateral flexion.

0:41:15.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I’m not a big… I’ve never programmed side bends for a person ever. Literally, I don’t think I’ve ever, not once, programmed side bends for anyone except for myself just to try them out. But I’ve never, in however many years I’ve been doing this, been like, “Yeah, I wanna put side bends in this person’s training program. It’s just…

[laughter]

0:41:42.2 Jordan Syatt: I don’t think I’ve ever done it.

0:41:44.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah. Plus if you do them, you have to stand in front of the dumbbells and block everything, because that’s the only place I’ve ever seen them done. So that’s another negative.

0:41:56.3 Jordan Syatt: Yep. You could do it right in the squat rack if you wanted to just take the dumbbell.

0:42:01.7 Mike Vacanti: I’ve never, I’d…

[laughter]

0:42:04.6 Mike Vacanti: I suppose, but I’ve never seen it. I’ve only seen it right in front of the rack.

0:42:09.4 Jordan Syatt: Yep. Yep.

0:42:10.9 Mike Vacanti: You don’t wanna talk about weight loss with a desk job. You feel like that one’s been…

0:42:14.6 Jordan Syatt: We’ve just spoken about it so many times and I feel like…

0:42:18.5 Mike Vacanti: You’re not a weight loss guy anymore.

0:42:20.2 Jordan Syatt: Dude I’m losing weight. I’m over five pounds down in 15 days. Don’t tell me I’m not a weight loss guy.

0:42:26.0 Mike Vacanti: No, no, no. Not you for yourself.

0:42:27.9 Jordan Syatt: What do you mean?

0:42:28.8 Mike Vacanti: I mean, you’ve talked enough about weight loss. You don’t wanna talk about it anymore.

0:42:32.1 Jordan Syatt: Dude, I’ll talk about it all day.

[laughter]

0:42:37.7 Jordan Syatt: I’ll talk about it all day, I’ll talk about it. I’m just, the weight loss with a desk job. Here’s what you do. You sit at your desk and you eat fewer calories than you need to maintain your current weight. That’s it.

0:42:48.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. That’s well said.

0:42:49.3 Jordan Syatt: If we wanna go more in depth and discuss like, “Okay, well, every hour or make sure you get up for 10 minutes and go on a walk. And also make sure you could get a desk cycle underneath your desk so that you can pedal.” Which actually I think is a great suggestion. Or get a fucking walking pad and keep it next to your desk. It’s very quiet. Or… There are so many things that we could discuss, but I feel like we’ve just spoken about it so much, but I’ll talk about it all day.

0:43:22.1 Mike Vacanti: Did you read Die With Zero by Bill Perkins?

0:43:25.1 Jordan Syatt: No. No, I didn’t, but I feel like I got the gist of it.

0:43:28.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:43:28.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

[laughter]

0:43:31.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. That’s fair. But he throws some interesting math there. The premise of the book is, and this really only applies to people who are ultra conservative and over save and underspend, and they’re kind of pack rats and they work their life away just to accumulate this giant nest egg and then they die. And he’s making the point that you should have spent some of that nest egg and enjoyed experiences over the course of your life, or you should have worked less to accumulate the nest egg because you didn’t need it all because you died with so much that was essentially, he would call it wasted hours. And there are counter arguments like, “Oh, what about my kids?” You can gift your kids money throughout the course of your life rather than saving up and just having it divvied out when you die.

0:44:20.9 Mike Vacanti: But what this makes me think of is this example he gives in the book of this single mom who works her butt off her entire life and ends up dying with however much money which converted into like four years of full-time work that she didn’t have to do. And so I just continue to see this problem where working full-time at a desk job is clearly not good for us and so many of us do it. And it would be amazing to, for lack of a better term, unplug from the Matrix and consumerism and spend less and have less extravagant things so that you can work less so that you can use that time, which does make it really difficult. You can use that time to focus on other things. And those might be like Bill Perkins talks about positive experiences, or it could be focusing on your own health.

0:45:28.1 Jordan Syatt: Bro. You have no idea how much I love that, that lifestyle is why, is one of the reasons I fell in love with Israel. I know you’ve probably heard me tell the story of how, like, I went to that shop at 2:00 in the afternoon. I was gonna get deodorant or something, and it was a beautiful day and the owner of this shop was closing the door. It was like one of those like the New York City doors, it’s like the metal, you pull it down so that people can’t come in and steal stuff or break the windows or whatever. He was pulling that down. I was like, “Whoa, what’s going on?” He’s like, “Ah, it’s 2:00 in the afternoon, but it’s a beautiful day, so I’m gonna take my kids to the beach.” It’s like that, I love that.

0:46:04.9 Jordan Syatt: And I feel like that’s one of the reasons why often other cultures live longer rate higher on a happiness scale. They’re outside more. They work to live, they don’t live to work. And I feel that generally the Western culture lives to work. And that through technology and innovation has led to desk jobs. That’s people live to work at their desk. Whereas in often other cultures, whether it’s, we see it a lot in Italy, we see it a lot in Greece. We see it a lot, definitely in the Middle East as well. People work to live and they work hard in many, many ways, but they also, they rest hard and they relax hard. And they have such a strong community bond with their culture, with their community, with their surroundings, their neighbors, all of that. Yeah, I could not love that more.

0:47:04.9 Mike Vacanti: Have you heard the fable of the Mexican fisherman?

0:47:07.4 Jordan Syatt: I don’t think so. You just Google it?

0:47:09.3 Mike Vacanti: I’m gonna read this to you.

0:47:10.5 Jordan Syatt: All right.

0:47:11.1 Mike Vacanti: All right. You ready? You’re gonna like this.

0:47:14.3 Jordan Syatt: Should that be the title of this episode? The fable of the Mexican fisherman?

0:47:17.5 Mike Vacanti: That would be cool. I think we go body dysmorphia though. You dropped some good knowledge on that.

0:47:22.1 Jordan Syatt: Maybe we could SEO for this fable though.

[laughter]

0:47:25.2 Jordan Syatt: For anyone else who’s Googling it.

[laughter]

0:47:28.4 Mike Vacanti: If you’re interested in learning about the Mexican fisherman, would you rather type it in and then see an article that has it? Or would you rather listen to 48 minutes of a podcast.

[laughter]

0:47:38.0 Mike Vacanti: And listen to these two idiots just go on and on about various subjects and then listen to one of them read it to you? Definitely body dysmorphia title. Okay. Are you ready, Jordan?

0:47:49.1 Jordan Syatt: I’m ready.

0:47:52.5 Mike Vacanti: “An American investment banker was taking a much needed vacation in a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. The boat had several large fresh fish in it. The investment banker was impressed by the quality of the fish and asked the Mexican how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, ‘only a little while.’ The banker then asked why he didn’t stay out longer and catch more fish. The Mexican fisherman replied he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, ‘but what do you do with the rest of your time?’ The Mexican fisherman replied, ‘I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life, senor.’ The investment banker scoffed, ‘I am an Ivy League MBA and I could help you. You could spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. And with the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats until eventually you would have a whole fleet of fishing boats.’

0:48:54.3 Mike Vacanti: ‘Instead of selling your catch to the middleman, you could sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You could control the product, processing and distribution.’ Then he added, ‘of course, you would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City where you would run your growing empire.’ The Mexican fisherman replied, ‘but senor, how long will all this take?’ To which the American replied, ’15 to 20 years.’ ‘But what then?’ Asked the Mexican. The American laughed and said, ‘that’s the best part. When the time is right, you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You could make millions.’ ‘Millions, senor? Then what?’ To which the investment banker replied, ‘Then you would retire. You would move to a small coastal fishing village…’

[laughter]

0:49:45.6 Mike Vacanti: ‘Where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play guitar with your amigos.'”

0:49:54.5 Jordan Syatt: I love that. That’s, dude, that’s great. I had never heard that before.

0:50:00.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:50:00.9 Jordan Syatt: The fable of the Mexican fisherman. That’s powerful. I love that.

0:50:04.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:50:04.3 Jordan Syatt: Now I wanna have some wine and go fishing.

[laughter]

0:50:09.0 Mike Vacanti: Die with Zero, I’m four chapters in. It is like you said, you kinda gather the gist of it from the title, but there’s still definitely some benefit to be picked up from.

0:50:21.7 Jordan Syatt: Oh, Was that from that book? He included that in the book?

0:50:25.8 Mike Vacanti: No, no, no, no. But it’s a similar co… It’s all along live to work, work to live, keeping up with the Joneses. You need this kinda car. You need to live in this neighborhood. You need to do all of these things that cost money, have this kind of bag, wear these kinds of clothes, that are essentially like units of energy that you’re investing in something that’s air, that’s like reputation basically. Whereas those units of energy or time spent working could be spent doing something else.

0:51:00.4 Jordan Syatt: I love that. Yeah. And it makes me think specifically relevant to coaches who might be listening to this. And I know there are a fair amount of people who are not coaches listening to this, which we appreciate you listening. But specifically for the coaches, there are many coaches who have, whether it’s 15, 20, 30, 40, whatever clients. And they’re like, I wanna have a huge business. I wanna have a huge, I wanna build a big business. It’s like, if you’ve got 20 online coaching clients, you could have such amazing work life balance. You could spend a few hours answering emails, spend a few hours making programs a week, and then, you could go fishing.

[laughter]

0:51:45.5 Jordan Syatt: You could play guitar with your amigos. That’s one of the things where… And I don’t regret anything that I’ve done. I’m very, very proud of what I’ve built. And I’m very glad I did it. But, who knows, maybe I could have been much happier if I didn’t. My life could have been completely different if I didn’t. And you’re right it’s like there’s, that’s what I’m trying to do now is spend less time working and more time being with family, being with friends and just relaxing. But, I wish someone had given me that advice when I was younger. And I wish I had read the Mexican fable about the Mexican fisherman, because who knows, maybe I would have heeded, headed, I don’t know the right word, maybe would have heed, hud, headed the advice, heeded the advice. Maybe it would have fallen on deaf ears, who knows. But I think it’s very important. And in hindsight, yeah, it’s a great message.

0:52:53.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And if it hits for you, if it lands great, if not, maybe it’s not meant for you, because I agree. If you would have told me that, and I heard that at various points in my life and, everyone’s different. Everyone has different security needs. Everyone has different ambitions and it’s not a judgment, but a lot of us do get swept up into, the way that we act based on the culture that we’re in, not based on how we really wanna live our lives.

0:53:22.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:53:23.4 Mike Vacanti: Good episode. Thank you very much for listening. We’re back every Tuesday. Hope you enjoyed. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a five-star review, helps us grow the pod. We would really appreciate it. Only takes less than one minute. Thank you.