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In this episode, we have a heated debate about flexibility and strength. Seriously. We got into it and took the gloves off.


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-J & M


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You can download a PDF version of the transcript here


Or you can expand to find the full episode transcription below:


0:00:12.4 Mike Vacanti: Hello, Jordan.


0:00:12.5 Jordan Syatt: What’s up, Michael?


0:00:15.6 Mike Vacanti: How goes?


0:00:17.0 Jordan Syatt: Dude, it’s going well. How was your workout?


0:00:18.7 Mike Vacanti: My workout was mediocre. Just a quick little pump session at home. Little home pump session. Nothing crazy.


0:00:26.3 Jordan Syatt: Oh, you didn’t go to the gym?


0:00:28.2 Mike Vacanti: Nah.


0:00:28.6 Jordan Syatt: You had the Bowflex?


0:00:30.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Bowflex. Did some pull-ups, some mobility.


0:00:32.5 Jordan Syatt: Oh, you have a chin-up bar?


0:00:33.8 Mike Vacanti: Mm-hmm.


0:00:35.4 Jordan Syatt: Nice. You have a bench?


0:00:38.1 Mike Vacanti: Not yet. I don’t really work out from home.


0:00:41.5 Jordan Syatt: Got it. Yeah. Okay.


0:00:41.9 Mike Vacanti: How are you?


0:00:42.7 Jordan Syatt: Good, man. I feel good. I feel great.


0:00:46.3 Mike Vacanti: I really wish we would have had the 30 seconds before we hit record on the Podcast because that was outstanding.


0:00:51.6 Jordan Syatt: Oh, no.




0:00:55.7 Mike Vacanti: How are you doing on our list?


0:00:57.5 Jordan Syatt: Dude, I’m doing super well from the perspective of, I’m posting every day. Well, not every day. Every scheduled day.


0:01:06.8 Mike Vacanti: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday.


0:01:08.7 Jordan Syatt: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday.


0:01:08.9 Mike Vacanti: Three days in a row. Absolutely crushing it.


0:01:12.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:01:12.5 Mike Vacanti: Instagram @personaltrainerpodcast, we have a system.


0:01:15.2 Jordan Syatt: Yep.


0:01:15.6 Mike Vacanti: You are killing those.


0:01:15.7 Jordan Syatt: Dominating it.


0:01:15.9 Mike Vacanti: I love it.


0:01:16.8 Jordan Syatt: What’s up with you, bro? What are we doing today? What are we talking about? What’s on the schedule?


0:01:22.9 Mike Vacanti: What aren’t we talking about?


0:01:24.7 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah. I forgot. I sent you a list of things to talk about.


0:01:26.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. BMI is on there.


0:01:28.9 Jordan Syatt: Oh, wow. Dude, I’m so glad I texted you that list ’cause I would have forgot.


0:01:34.0 Mike Vacanti: The comments on YouTube after the pillows episode from two weeks ago…


0:01:38.1 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah. Not a surprise.


0:01:39.7 Mike Vacanti: Not so outstanding. So big shout out to all you leaving comments. Glad you jumped over to YouTube for that one.


0:01:47.1 Jordan Syatt: I knew that was gonna go crazy as you were doing it. I was just losing it laughing. And I knew that people watching were gonna to lose it. That was probably the greatest moment in all of podcasting history.


0:02:00.3 Mike Vacanti: Definitely not. I just hope that people, in addition to gleaning some entertainment and humor from it, actually dial in their sleep, which will improve their lives.


0:02:11.5 Jordan Syatt: Dude, I found the list that I texted you.


0:02:13.6 Mike Vacanti: You have the list? What do you want to dive into?


0:02:16.9 Jordan Syatt: All right. I’m so glad I texted you these because if I didn’t, there’s no way I would have remembered that. And they’re actually like… They sort of lead into each other. They’re like the same, they’re similar topics…


0:02:27.1 Mike Vacanti: Okay.


0:02:28.6 Jordan Syatt: But different and like similar principle, but different topics of getting to the principle. So the first thing is, organic. Anytime I bring up organic on social media, people get really upset. And I used to be like fully into organic is better. Organic is, and specifically healthier, right? There are two main arguments. Like one is that it’s more nutritious and the other is that it’s safer. The nutritious argument, I think fewer people believe nowadays, they understand that organic doesn’t mean more nutritious. But the safer one is like the real major point of contention that people get upset about. They’re like,”It is safer. It is safer. There aren’t pesticides, blah, blah, blah.” And I used to believe that until I actually studied it and read the research and blah, blah, blah. And realized that’s actually it’s not accurate.


0:03:22.4 Jordan Syatt: And this is crazy. So I posted about it again recently. And every time that I post about it, I get a couple of messages saying the same thing. So I get people who their job is to spray pesticides on crops. I get people who message me, “Hey, that’s my job, just so you know.” And every time, this past time I did, I got two people saying this, “Hey, this is my job. Just want you to know.” And they both said, they’re like, “Please don’t put my name or my handle or my picture if you decide to share this. You need to keep me anonymous.” But for whatever it’s worth, any time an organic farm has too many bugs on their crops, who do you think they call and pay extra to have me spray in the middle of the night?


0:04:14.0 Mike Vacanti: Wow.


0:04:16.4 Jordan Syatt: Which I was like how…


0:04:16.8 Mike Vacanti: Sneaky.


0:04:17.0 Jordan Syatt: Fucking… Like two separate people messaged me this saying like, “just so you know, even the organic farms, like when the bugs get to be too much, who do you think they’re calling?” And so obviously organic farms, they use pesticides too, but often in different amounts or they have different pesticides, but they’re often still calling the exact same people ’cause they can’t sell their crops if the bugs are eating them, right? They can’t sell their crops if they’re being… If they’re gone.


0:04:49.3 Jordan Syatt: So it’s like, it’s just so funny to me that, I don’t even know if funny is the right word. It’s funny and sad and scary. And there’s a lot of words that come to mind, but people think that they’re buying something that’s better when in reality is like it’s probably the exact same thing.


0:05:05.0 Mike Vacanti: They’re using that buzzword because then they can sell it for a higher price, or else equal, even though they have whoever in your DMs coming in the middle of night to spray their crops.


0:05:17.6 Jordan Syatt: It’s just crazy ’cause I never…


0:05:19.8 Mike Vacanti: And we have to assume that’s not the majority of organic farms in fairness.


0:05:24.9 Jordan Syatt: Or maybe it is.


0:05:26.3 Mike Vacanti: Maybe it is, but I would assume it’s not. I would hope that it’s not, I’ll say.


0:05:31.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I would say hope and assume. I get this message all the time. And what’s crazy is I would… I’ve never heard this message put out publicly on like a mainstream Podcast or in the research. This isn’t something that shows up in a research study because this is something that happens. People are paid extra for it. And it, the whole concept is you have to keep it secret.


0:05:49.0 Jordan Syatt: And so this is one of those things where it’s like, you probably wouldn’t hear about this. And the pesticide company, like why wouldn’t they do it? They’re getting paid extra, right? So they’re getting paid more money and probably under the table ’cause that probably can’t show up on this, their tax returns or whatever it is. They would immediately like give their farmer. It wouldn’t be good for anyone involved. So this is one of those things where it’s like we wouldn’t hear about this publicly. And so it’s interesting for me to be on the receiving end of a relatively large audience and people being having access to so many people being like, just so you know like this happens too. And I’m sure it’s not every single farm, but for it to happen every time I bring it up and which is pretty frequently and different people, I would say it’s pretty widespread.


0:06:41.7 Mike Vacanti: The deceit runs not only through the supplement industry, but straight into the mainstream organic fruits and vegetables market.


0:06:49.7 Jordan Syatt: So this is where then the next topic comes up and you’ll see where I’m going with it. So the most recent time after I posted about it, it was trash day. And I’m putting out the recycling and the trash from my house. And I’m just thinking, and I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m just, I’m wondering. How do we know that they’re actually separating the recycles from the non-recycles? You know what I mean? Like how do we… I’m hoping they are. But how do we know that they’re not just taking it to the same fucking place and just dumping it all together? You know what I mean?


0:07:23.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I hear you.


0:07:25.2 Jordan Syatt: So I was just putting it out there. And I was like, and all these people who are like super, super, super. I was like, have you ever seen it? Like have you ever, have you ever seen it with your own eyes where they put this stuff and then where it goes? That’s…


0:07:41.0 Mike Vacanti: I have not seen it. I don’t know what the auditing or certification process is around recyclables. I know that different trucks pick up my, like the guy who picks up my trash is different from the guy who picks up my recycle.


0:07:57.4 Jordan Syatt: Same. Yeah.


0:08:01.1 Mike Vacanti: I’ve never followed them to see where they’re going with it.


0:08:01.5 Jordan Syatt: That’s what I’m saying. How do we know?


0:08:04.3 Mike Vacanti: I guess we don’t. I guess we don’t for certain. I have faith in the system on that one. I would imagine someone else would have figured it out.


0:08:10.8 Jordan Syatt: You usually don’t have faith in the system. I’m surprised you’ve got faith in the system on that one.


0:08:15.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I just… What’s the incentive?


0:08:19.6 Jordan Syatt: Dude.


0:08:21.4 Mike Vacanti: If they’re throwing it all in the same place, why make us separate them?




0:08:23.0 Jordan Syatt: Black Rock. Black Rock, man. I’m telling you.




0:08:28.6 Jordan Syatt: Who knows.


0:08:28.8 Mike Vacanti: I was wondering when you… ‘Cause you just sent me like, not a lot of detail about what you wanted to talk about. And you were like, how do we know recycling goes where we think it does? I was like, “What is this gonna be?”


0:08:41.3 Jordan Syatt: It’s exactly what I wrote. How do we know where it goes?


0:08:45.0 Mike Vacanti: You should follow.


0:08:46.1 Jordan Syatt: If I had just wrote recycling, I probably wouldn’t have known what I meant by that. That’s why I had to literally put the whole question in there.


0:08:49.2 Mike Vacanti: Smart.


0:08:51.3 Jordan Syatt: But my thing is, even if we go and we see, how do we know then what… I don’t know. We don’t know. I guess we just have to trust the system. But I’m getting to a point where it’s like, I don’t fucking trust the system, man. I just don’t know.


0:09:02.7 Mike Vacanti: I think, you can have distrust for certain elements of the system or different systems and trust in other systems. I’ll have to think about this recycling one and think of a way that we can be reasonably confident that our recyclables are getting recycled.


0:09:20.7 Jordan Syatt: ‘Cause then I see products that say, “Hey, this is made out of 100% recycled material.” And I’m like, “Was it?”




0:09:29.9 Mike Vacanti: The distrust is running strong in Jordan today.


0:09:37.2 Jordan Syatt: Dude, big time. Really big time.


0:09:38.9 Mike Vacanti: I had a buddy in college who was staunchly anti-recycling because he thought that it didn’t matter. He thought it was like a scam of some sort. That it didn’t actually help the environment.


0:09:50.4 Jordan Syatt: I think, that if it actually does what they say they do, if they actually do recycle it, then I think it makes sense. I’ve just seen too much in my very short life.


0:10:03.4 Mike Vacanti: What have you seen?


0:10:03.9 Jordan Syatt: It caused me to be very distrustful.


0:10:05.9 Mike Vacanti: Anything specific that you’ve seen that has made you distrustful about recycling in particular?


0:10:11.3 Jordan Syatt: Not about recycling, but about like news and government media? You know?


0:10:16.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And Big Garbage is probably in that dark triad.


0:10:22.7 Jordan Syatt: I’m gonna say Big Garbage, but definitely in big government.


0:10:27.5 Mike Vacanti: Well, the government isn’t who picks up my recycling. It’s a private company.


0:10:31.2 Jordan Syatt: Is that not a government job?


0:10:31.3 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:10:31.4 Jordan Syatt: I always thought that was a government job.


0:10:34.8 Mike Vacanti: Maybe in some states, but no.


0:10:37.1 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know.


0:10:37.4 Mike Vacanti: No, there’s a handful of businesses that offer that service around here and…


0:10:43.7 Jordan Syatt: So, oh, wow. I would have thought the government would have taken care of that.


0:10:45.2 Mike Vacanti: Maybe it’s different in Texas. Do you not pay someone to pick up your recycling?


0:10:48.8 Jordan Syatt: I pay someone. I thought that it was the government, but I have no idea.




0:10:55.3 Mike Vacanti: This is great. I think people are gonna like this.


0:10:58.0 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know. And again, I don’t know. I’ve never followed them. I have no idea. I’m just raising the question. It’s a question worth asking.


0:11:06.6 Mike Vacanti: All right. Let me ask you this hypothetical. If it’s not the government picking up your trash and recycling, do you have more faith that it’s going where they say it’s going?


0:11:12.7 Jordan Syatt: I do have more. I have more. Not full faith, but I would have more faith. Yeah. ‘Cause then what you really have to boil it down to is it’s still people running it. And so people are not always gonna do the right thing. And oftentimes, they just will do the easier thing. We see this all the time. For example, in the fitness industry, we see people be like yeah, you’re gonna get a individualized training program. And they just copy and paste and give all their clients a one-on-one training program.


0:11:39.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:11:40.4 Jordan Syatt: And then on the outskirts, you could be like, “Yeah, it’s like great coaches. Look, they have all these certifications.” But then when you get into the individuals, some coaches are doing really good and some coaches are lying and cheating and not doing good. So it’s people are the individuals are the one that really make it whether or not it’s happening or not. So I have, I would have more faith in a private company than I would in the government ’cause the private company is more based on like the quality and value of what they’re saying is gonna drive more income and it’s gonna drive their reputation, whereas the government doesn’t have as much of that. So they could do more of the finagling and all that. So I would trust a private company more. But private companies have also done bad stuff too. So I don’t know, man. I’m on one.


0:12:23.2 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know. I know very little about the garbage and recycling industry. So unfortunately, I don’t have much to add here. But of all the places of where my skepticism has gone over the years, that hasn’t been on my radar.


0:12:35.3 Jordan Syatt: Not yet. But maybe now.


0:12:38.6 Mike Vacanti: Not yet.


0:12:41.4 Jordan Syatt: Where does your skepticism go? Let’s give one of your like skeptic POVs.


0:12:46.1 Mike Vacanti: I don’t think I have anything, at least not right now, along the lines of… Like my skepticism would probably have more evidence.


0:12:55.9 Jordan Syatt: Go for it.


0:12:57.8 Mike Vacanti: No, I can’t think of one. I can’t think of anything that parallels your recycling. If you think you know something I’m skeptical about that I’m not knowing, you can say it.


0:13:06.5 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know. I’m just like, I know you’ve got skeptical thoughts.


0:13:11.9 Mike Vacanti: Well, yeah. I think we’re being lied to a lot by a lot of different organizations, but I think most people think that in this day and age.


0:13:17.1 Jordan Syatt: Got it. Yeah.


0:13:18.8 Mike Vacanti: Let’s keep going down your list.


0:13:20.7 Jordan Syatt: The last one was BMI. I just made a post about BMI. And man, I didn’t think people were gonna get as mad as they did, but I got a lot of people who were super upset about it. And all I said was this. I said, “BMI has many faults, like it does. It’s not a perfect tool. It’s not perfect. But the purpose of BMI is large-scale general application to average everyday people, the average person.”


0:13:54.2 Jordan Syatt: And I said that, “Many people in the fitness industry love to go off on tangents and say BMI is worthless and it’s stupid when the people who initially started saying this were people who had a lot of extra lean mass and a relatively low body fat, so it was saying that they were overweight or obese. But that person isn’t an average individual from the perspective of the BMI.” That’s not an average person.


0:14:19.4 Jordan Syatt: So just throw the baby out with the bathwater and just say it’s useless. It’s worthless just because for you it doesn’t work is you are not representative of the vast majority of people. The vast majority of people do not work out every week. The vast majority of people do not have an excess or a lot of lean mass. The vast majority of people do not have low body fat percentage. The vast majority of people have excess body fat and are lacking in lean mass. And for them, the BMI actually, is a very good tool.


0:14:55.5 Jordan Syatt: Again, if your doctor is only using the BMI, that’s a big problem. But just as a general tool, it’s actually a very good tool which takes minimal time. And the number of people who got mad at me for that, I can’t even begin to tell you how upset they were. And I know that these people, these are people who only follow accounts that make them feel good. From the perspective of they only follow accounts that give a message that makes them justify the way they’re living, right?


0:15:29.6 Jordan Syatt: And as soon as a message comes across their desk or across their phone screen that says, “Maybe this isn’t right. Maybe what you’re doing isn’t the best.” They get so mad and so riled up that they’re like, “All right, fuck you. I’m out. This is wrong. You’re stupid. Blah, blah, blah.” Like they didn’t even want to hear it.


0:15:49.7 Mike Vacanti: Sorry if maybe you said this and I missed it. Were the people who were upset people who are like, overly muscular, appear to be…


0:15:57.9 Jordan Syatt: No.


0:15:58.7 Mike Vacanti: Appear to be overweight.


0:16:00.5 Jordan Syatt: No.


0:16:00.5 Mike Vacanti: On BMI, maybe a 27 on BMI, but really they’re like 10% body fat, like the bodybuilder kind of person?


0:16:06.3 Jordan Syatt: No, it seemed to be more like the…


0:16:09.2 Mike Vacanti: Or is it the person who’s overweight or obese who is in like the healthy at every size fat acceptance kind of side of…


0:16:15.8 Jordan Syatt: That. It was that.


0:16:15.9 Mike Vacanti: Okay. Okay.


0:16:17.5 Jordan Syatt: It was that. And a lot of them were throwing out.


0:16:20.4 Mike Vacanti: Which is wild to me that… And you said they are people who follow you. ‘Cause we talked about this one a little bit before.


0:16:27.8 Jordan Syatt: Not anymore.


0:16:29.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, but this wasn’t like the post went absolutely bonkers and this is all new audience and you hit a different echo chamber.


0:16:33.4 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:16:34.1 Mike Vacanti: These are people who follow you who think that there isn’t a correlation between body fat percentage and health or a high BMI.


0:16:45.6 Jordan Syatt: There was literally one comment that said, I can’t make this up. One of the commenters said, “Well, then how do you explain that people who have a higher body fat live longer?” I can’t even, I swear to God someone wrote that. I was like, what?




0:17:05.3 Jordan Syatt: They’re being brainwashed. They’re being brainwashed into thinking that like they’re actually healthier because of the way they’re living, which is just wild.


0:17:14.7 Mike Vacanti: Weren’t there some other like, when you… ‘Cause you just wrote BMI when you texted it to me. And I assumed we were gonna go down the route of the personal trainer who I actually sympathize with and actually like their position when analyzing an individual, which is that BMI doesn’t tell the whole story and that body fat percentage is…


0:17:35.6 Jordan Syatt: Of course.


0:17:35.7 Mike Vacanti: A much more useful metric. I thought it was gonna be simply about that. And by the way, I don’t like BMI at all for assessing an individual. For assessing a population, especially over time, it’s an amazing tool. If I’m assessing an individual body fat percentage is way better. Absolutely.


0:17:56.8 Jordan Syatt: A hundred percent. Yeah.


0:18:01.9 Mike Vacanti: That doesn’t mean BMI doesn’t have its place and many useful applications. So I assumed that was gonna be the extent of this discussion around BMI, which I find very interesting. There were other elements of it that blew my mind. If I remember like, wasn’t there more to the people who were upset about it?


0:18:23.5 Jordan Syatt: There was one woman who, she’s followed me for years. She literally, I looked in her DMs ’cause I hadn’t seen her DMs before. She had DM’d me prior asking, “Hey, could you speak?” She was a teacher. “Could you speak to my class? I want you to speak to my class.” Over the years, she sent me so many messages and I posted that and she just went off in the comments and unfollowed me and all of that. It was like really mad that I would have the gall to post that saying that it’s actually a good tool from a large scale data perspective based on the average individual. So yeah, I was pretty blown away by it.


0:18:58.0 Mike Vacanti: I had thought there were multiple DMs where people were saying like, BMI is racist, BMI is misogynistic, BMI is sexist, BMI is, yeah.


0:19:08.8 Jordan Syatt: It’s racist, which is just wild. It’s absolutely wild. Yeah. And they’re saying it because the original study was done on white men and that’s how they originally came up with BMI. But for me, it’s like, “Okay, so that’s how they originally did it.” But you do realize that like most studies, if you look at historically studies, like it’s off, like they don’t like, especially historically, they haven’t diversified just deliberately. So over the years of using BMI, we’ve collected a lot of data from all races and from men and women and like from everything, we’ve collected so much data. So while the initial study may have been on white men, that doesn’t change all of the data that we’ve gotten since then that has then impacted BMI and the knowledge that we now have on it.


0:19:57.5 Mike Vacanti: Even if the studies are on white men or Asian women or any gender/ethnic group/race, that doesn’t make the metric racist.


0:20:05.5 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:20:06.5 Mike Vacanti: Just because you did studies on certain segments of the population doesn’t make the metric racist.


0:20:10.7 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:20:12.0 Mike Vacanti: I assume you were going to say the reason that people argued it was racist was because there were differences in BMI amongst different ethnicities. I feel like that, if there was an argument, would be a better argument, which still isn’t correct.


0:20:25.3 Jordan Syatt: Still isn’t racist. But yeah.


0:20:27.0 Mike Vacanti: Right.


0:20:30.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. People are throwing that word around way too easily right now, where it’s actually diminishing from when someone does experience racism. It’s like it’s thrown around so much now that it’s like you’re taking away from the severity and the importance of this word when you just throw it around for things that aren’t actually racist.


0:20:47.1 Mike Vacanti: Correct. And what I really learned was that I am not on the internet at all. Because I thought that conversation was over. Like I thought calling random things like BMI racist was something that would have happened in 2021. I didn’t know that was still happening at this point.


0:21:05.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I haven’t seen it as much until that post, but I think that triggered a lot of people. I also did my Trump impression in a post yesterday, which got an overall good response, but one woman posted being like, “Why’d you have to bring Trump into it? I liked your content until then.” And then I was like, “I don’t want you following me.” I wrote that. It’s like if me doing a shitty Trump impression triggers you like enough, like please don’t follow me.


0:21:33.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:21:34.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:21:34.2 Mike Vacanti: Your impression’s good.


0:21:34.3 Jordan Syatt: So I mean it’s getting better. It’s getting better.


0:21:35.8 Mike Vacanti: It’s not Shane Gillis, but it’s good.


0:21:39.0 Jordan Syatt: Dude, Shane Gillis makes… Shane Gillis does his Trump impression better than Trump does Trump. Like Shane Gillis does Trump better than Trump does Trump. It’s insane.


0:21:45.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I think that’s right. Anything else on BMI?


0:21:54.1 Jordan Syatt: In terms of my legitimate thoughts, there’s no question that body fat is the infinitely better tool to use. We also have to remember that when you’re going into a doctor’s office, they’re not able to accurately measure your body fat percentage. They’re so slammed that… And then we could get into the whole healthcare system, blah, blah, blah. But just stick with the topic at hand. Doctors doing the best they can with what they have. They have this tool and they have this ability to assess you relatively quickly based on large scale population data. And…


0:22:32.3 Mike Vacanti: Sorry, we didn’t even hit this. BMI is just a height to weight ratio.


0:22:36.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yep.


0:22:37.4 Mike Vacanti: For those who might not know.


0:22:41.6 Jordan Syatt: So while it may not apply to you individually, it does give the doctors a good idea as to like, “Okay, I have a general idea of like what needs to happen now.” Now that to be, that being said, I don’t think it plays that big of a role in terms of how that doctor should communicate with the patient. In fact, I don’t think it should play really any role in terms of how you communicate with the patient based on their BMI. Generally, let’s say it’s an average individual and they have a very high BMI because they have a very high body fat percentage that just telling them, “Hey, you’ve got a high BMI,” Or telling them like, “Hey, you need to lose weight.” Usually is not… Doesn’t even need to be said. It has to be said, but it doesn’t need to be said if that makes sense.


0:23:21.3 Jordan Syatt: Like it has to be said because the doctor’s responsibility is their health and you need to do this for your health, but it doesn’t need to be said from the perspective of if someone is a higher body fat percentage, like they fucking know. They’re aware. The doctor’s, their job is to have to bring it up. But I think how they bring it up needs to be improved and the discussion they need to have any that they can have needs to be improved, the, how they refer them to people with better knowledge and understanding of more sustainable, healthy living measures needs to be improved because right now they’re just like, “Yep, lose weight, eat less, move more, eat better exercise.”


0:23:54.9 Jordan Syatt: They don’t really give much practical guidance, but again, it’s also because they don’t have that much time. They’re fucking slammed. They have to see, see, see, see new patients, new patients, new patients, new patients all the time. So it is also useful as a tool of seeing, “Okay, what population, what’s the general population trend? Where is that going over time?” But again, like if on the individual basis, the body fat percentage is a much better tool, but it’s just not realistic.


0:24:19.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. The other place that BMI is interesting is people who are very low on muscle and skinny fat and fall into the top of the healthy range of BMI, but might be a 25 plus percent body fat dude or a woman with body fat percentage in the 30s, but BMI looks good. That’s another area where on an individual basis, it’s nice to be able to, assess body comp in a different way. But like you said, the constraints of time, the knowledge that a doctor has and the inability to have an accurate tool to measure body fat percentage. You’re not going to have every patient going in a DEXA and even a DEXA is not perfect.


0:25:09.7 Jordan Syatt: What’s interesting, I had so many doctors and like different types of doctors messaging me about this, basically saying, like, for example, I had one doctor who does skin grafting for people who are burn victims or something, and they’re like, “Oh my God, like it makes a huge difference.” Not only just in terms of the ability to do a good skin graft on a burn victim, but the ability for the skin to heal quickly. The rate of healing changes based on your body fat percentage, based on your BMI. If you are of a higher BMI, generally again, higher body fat, lower muscle, the rate at which your skin will heal is also more difficult too to actually attach the skin graft. There are all things that I hadn’t thought about that actually make a huge, huge, huge difference. There were a number of doctors in a number of different areas of medicine that could not possibly say how important it was. And there was actually one doctor that said, and the interesting thing is from the effect on the heart, well, obviously more muscle, less fat is very important for so many reasons.


0:26:10.3 Jordan Syatt: More mass is more mass, and that can put more stress on the heart. And so even for people who have super physiological amounts of muscle, who are adding a ton of extra muscle, not genetically, not like it’s not someone who’s genetically put on muscle like and reach their genetic limit. It’s people who have put on super physiological amounts, like bodybuilders…


0:26:26.7 Mike Vacanti: Steroids.


0:26:28.1 Jordan Syatt: Steroids who are, who have that also puts a lot of extra stress on the heart and can make it way more difficult, which is why we don’t generally see bodybuilders living very long lives or one reason why among others. And so, in terms of the mass part of the equation, mass is mass. And generally speaking, it’s why when we look at generally centenarians or people who live very, very long lives. They also tend to be smaller people, right? You generally don’t see like a 6’4 person living outrageously long, not saying you can’t, but large scale data. It’s the small and especially women like smaller petite women generally are the ones who live the longest, which, you know, there are many reasons for that, but mass being one of them.


0:27:15.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. There’s a sweet spot in terms of how much muscle is optimal for longevity, assuming you’re not hopping on a bunch of steroids and like trying to put on as much muscle as possible, you’re not going to naturally put on so much muscle that it’s a problem for your heart, or like you risk cardiovascular issues. The benefits of having a lot of strength and muscle, especially as you get into your 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, are massive. And…


0:27:48.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:27:52.2 Mike Vacanti: Just so we’re not deterring people from adding muscle from, well.


0:27:55.7 Jordan Syatt: That’s why I kept saying super physiological steroids like…


0:28:01.6 Mike Vacanti: I know. And okay. Maybe everyone knows what that means. I didn’t, I wasn’t sure.


0:28:03.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Don’t not try and build muscle because of this. Like you’re not going to build too much muscle unless you’re taking an obscene amount of steroids and training like a high level bodybuilder.


0:28:13.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yep. Nailed it.


0:28:20.3 Jordan Syatt: I wonder how many people listening who are taking an obscene amount of steroids and training like a high level bodybuilder are like, “I need to change, this podcast has changed my life.”


0:28:29.4 Mike Vacanti: Probably not many.


0:28:34.6 Jordan Syatt: No, I would bet none. I would bet none.


0:28:39.7 Mike Vacanti: You know what I would actually say? The ones who are listening already know what we just said…


0:28:41.4 Jordan Syatt: Correct. Yeah.


0:28:42.3 Mike Vacanti: In our conscious of it. So maybe they’re on like a base of test. Maybe they’re not high level bodybuilders. Maybe they’re more amateur…


0:28:52.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.


0:28:53.5 Mike Vacanti: Maybe, but they’re doing it intelligently. They’re doing it under the supervision of a doctor.


0:28:56.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Maybe some Anavar.


0:29:01.2 Mike Vacanti: [laughter] Maybe. We don’t have someone with 280 pounds and 5% body fat listening to this podcast and I’m like, “Oh, maybe I should tone it down a little for my heart health.” I think there are zero of those.


0:29:12.1 Jordan Syatt: Or just get an email from someone, from some Chad, just being like, “I’m actually 5% body fat, 280 and it changed my life.”


0:29:18.7 Mike Vacanti: Jordan just used the word Chad. That’s incredible. Have you been on Twitter?


0:29:23.2 Jordan Syatt: No, no, I have not.


0:29:27.1 Mike Vacanti: Did you learn Chad from me or have you seen it out there on the internet?


0:29:28.7 Jordan Syatt: From you.


0:29:30.2 Mike Vacanti: You haven’t seen it on the internet?


0:29:30.3 Jordan Syatt: No.


0:29:31.0 Mike Vacanti: Cool. Good. I just like to know where we’re at. I like to know what, I like to know when my echo chamber bumps up against someone else’s. What else? What else is on your list?


0:29:43.2 Jordan Syatt: Bring back the BMI. I think that was it. That’s all that I messaged you.


0:29:49.5 Mike Vacanti: We said we would review, we made a list of things that we’re gonna focus on. Last week was real hype. I know you don’t remember.


0:30:01.0 Jordan Syatt: Wait, what?


0:30:02.3 Mike Vacanti: Artificial sweeteners…


0:30:02.9 Jordan Syatt: I don’t remember at all.


0:30:04.7 Mike Vacanti: You were like, we’re bringing back clean eating. Clean eating’s coming back. We’re bringing it back.


0:30:10.2 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yep.


0:30:12.3 Mike Vacanti: Stretching, cardio, minimal processed sugar slash desserts.


0:30:14.1 Jordan Syatt: Are we making a list now?


0:30:17.7 Mike Vacanti: Dude, we made a list last week.


0:30:20.7 Jordan Syatt: Okay. So we’re doing this?


0:30:24.9 Mike Vacanti: We wanted to make a list. I was like, we’re making a list and we made a list.


0:30:25.0 Jordan Syatt: Okay.


0:30:25.1 Mike Vacanti: I was just checking in to see how we’re doing on our list, but you forgot we even have it. So I’m guessing not very good. We’re making a list.




0:30:38.7 Mike Vacanti: We already made the list. This is the list that we made one week ago.


0:30:38.8 Jordan Syatt: I was literally like, oh man, all right, let’s start making a list.


0:30:43.7 Mike Vacanti: This is the list.


0:30:48.5 Jordan Syatt: Dude. No, I’m doing good. I’ve had our artificial sweeteners. I’ve had some diet Coke, diet sodas.


0:30:52.7 Mike Vacanti: It’s not a lot of nothing. It’s directional progress is what we care about.


0:30:56.6 Jordan Syatt: I make sure that I have a full one of these and for people watching YouTube, a full massive, massive thing of water before I have any diet sodas. So I have a big one of these. This is actually a sick jug, by the way. There’s just a little bit of water left, but look, right over my computer, nothing. Doesn’t spill. Nothing. Nothing. It’s all good. It’s a sick jug. And I think I’ve changed my mind. I used to be like all smaller water as a bottle. Remember when I said that? When I was like, “I like this smaller, smaller water bottles because like I could just keep filling it up more and more and more?”


0:31:26.2 Mike Vacanti: Yep.


0:31:27.2 Jordan Syatt: But that ended up becoming a task where I was like, got to keep filling it up. Whereas now it’s just like, “All right, here’s what I got to have before noon or whatever.” And that way, boom, it’s I don’t need to keep filling it up. I don’t need to go back. So even though it is less convenient from the perspective of the size is sort of annoying to carry around, it’s more convenient from the perspective of, I don’t need to keep filling it up. So I’m still trying to figure out my best way to get more water in there. But as of right now, I’m a big, big water bottle guy.


0:31:57.1 Mike Vacanti: What’s fun is as someone who doesn’t struggle with water, we all have things that we, that come more naturally to us.


0:32:03.5 Jordan Syatt: You don’t struggle with anything. Yeah.


0:32:04.0 Mike Vacanti: I struggle with lots. The problems and issues that people who struggle with water have are similar. And I feel like this isn’t discussed because there’s the strategy of, “Okay, I want a smaller water bottle.” One, because then I’m going to build momentum and confidence because I feel like I’m actually finishing it. Two, because I like to chug water and I don’t want to feel overly full. I don’t like that feeling. Like those are two very commonly espoused ideas around that.


0:32:31.6 Jordan Syatt: Yep. Thats me, both of them is me.


0:32:35.7 Mike Vacanti: But then going to the big water bottle is easier, right? You don’t have to fill it up as often, but for some it’s demotivating because they feel like it’s too much water to drink. They feel like they’re never gonna be able to drink that much water. There are pros and cons.


0:32:46.7 Jordan Syatt: Dude. Real and it’s just so big that it’s annoying to carry around. You know what I mean?


0:32:54.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:32:55.8 Jordan Syatt: And if I have it in my car, sometimes it’ll fall over and… It’s that, that big water bottle is, it can be a little bit annoying, but this one, it’s called the HydroJug, not getting paid for it. But yeah, I’m a fan. What’s that one you got?


0:33:09.4 Mike Vacanti: It was whatever was cheapest on Amazon, but it’s a…


0:33:10.3 Jordan Syatt: Is it plastic?


0:33:10.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, it’s plastic. I know. I know. Well, it’s not like the plastics that the study was done on with the 240,000 micro plastics.


0:33:18.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah.


0:33:22.7 Mike Vacanti: I like it because it’s half a gallon, and the half a gallon metal options are a little more annoying. I have a 40 ounce metal that I don’t like as much. Yeah.


0:33:32.9 Jordan Syatt: Got it.


0:33:38.4 Mike Vacanti: Okay. How else are we doing? Cardio, stretching, clean eating.


0:33:41.8 Jordan Syatt: Oh dude. Stretching, I had a personal record with my middle splits for the first time in like three months the other day, which I was really excited about.


0:33:49.6 Mike Vacanti: Nice.


0:33:54.0 Jordan Syatt: Dude, stretching… I’ll tell you what. My idea of stretching, I’m trying to figure out the best way to say this. I didn’t realize how much strength could be involved in stretching. When you stretch, I’m not gonna say in the right way, but in a different way.


0:34:12.8 Mike Vacanti: Okay.


0:34:14.0 Jordan Syatt: And so a lot of the stretching that I’m doing is very high intensity isometric holds at the end range of where I can currently go. And bro, it’s pretty fucking wild. Not only the strength that I’m building at these end ranges, but then what that carries over to in terms of flexibility improvements. It’s been remarkable.


0:34:40.3 Mike Vacanti: Definitely flexibility improvements. I feel like I’ll believe it when I see it, but I feel like the, I’m getting stronger by stretching might be the 2024 version of lift weights faster for cardio.


0:34:54.0 Jordan Syatt: No, no, no, no, no ’cause I’m not saying it takes the place of lifting weights.


0:34:57.1 Mike Vacanti: Okay.


0:35:00.7 Jordan Syatt: That’s not what I’m saying.


0:35:02.0 Mike Vacanti: Okay.


0:35:03.0 Jordan Syatt: You still have to lift weights in order to maximize your strength.


0:35:09.1 Mike Vacanti: Or even to improve or even to get stronger.


0:35:09.2 Jordan Syatt: No. Cause I think strength is skill. It’s a skill and it’s also demand specific, right? So like my… I could deadlift 500 pounds, but I wasn’t able to do an isometric hold with my legs at a certain degree, like at a certain width, right? It couldn’t do an isometric hold. That’s actually why I ended up hurting my knee. The first time around doing the splits because my… I hadn’t built up my strength enough to maintain that position.


0:35:37.7 Jordan Syatt: So strength is demand specific relative to what you’re putting your body under. So for example, a deadlift is very specific based on where your feet are and the actual proportions of the lift and where your body is. But when you change the leverages of where your body is, the strength and the demand on your body changes.


0:36:00.0 Jordan Syatt: So I think you can absolutely get stronger, but in terms of like, obviously the split strength probably won’t carry over to my deadlift strength, just like the deadlift strength won’t carry over to my split strength, but I’m still getting stronger when I’m doing both.


0:36:13.3 Mike Vacanti: So the limiting factor in not being able to do splits wasn’t flexibility, it wasn’t neurological. It was a strength. It was a… Okay.


0:36:28.2 Jordan Syatt: No it was. It was all of that. It was neurological. It was strength. It was all of it combined.


0:36:33.0 Mike Vacanti: What wasn’t strong enough that got stronger?


0:36:39.5 Jordan Syatt: So, I mean, I think the reason that I hurt my knee was because the muscles and tendons around my the lateral aspect, or sorry, the medial aspect of my knee weren’t strong enough. And so I’ve been doing a lot of strengthening just for that, whether it was the isometric work or, even just like a basic adductor raises, Copenhagen planks, there’s been a lot of very specific isolated strength training for those areas. It’s still like strength training.


0:37:11.5 Jordan Syatt: It’s just not the strength training that we’ve been brought up with. It’s still strength training though. And so that’s where I think I would imagine that this type of training…


0:37:19.7 Mike Vacanti: A static hold?


0:37:21.4 Jordan Syatt: Yep.


0:37:21.8 Mike Vacanti: A body weight, static stretch?


0:37:24.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:37:26.3 Mike Vacanti: You would call strength training?


0:37:26.5 Jordan Syatt: Now I would, before I wouldn’t, now I absolutely would. Think about this. Let’s say you take Van Damme, Jean-Claude Van Damme doing his splits out to the sides, legs up on the chair. Right? You know what I’m talking about?


0:37:38.0 Mike Vacanti: Yep.


0:37:39.7 Jordan Syatt: He’s doing that side split legs up on the chair. That’s number one, an expression of his flexibility in terms of be able to get in that split. But it’s also an expression of his strength in terms of he’s now literally holding up his body weight purely with his adductors and groin in that position, right? That takes an obscene amount of strength to hold 185 pounds or whatever it is purely with your adductors. You don’t get that level of strength without strength training. Someone might have the flexibility to get in the splits like that sideways splits.


0:38:11.5 Mike Vacanti: Sure.


0:38:16.0 Jordan Syatt: But they don’t have the strength to hold themselves up. And so that’s where I think there are some who classically stretch, or like static stretching, but they end up missing the strength benefits. So this type of strength training and mobility work that I’ve been doing it’s both. It’s not just static stretching, it’s actually very little static stretching. It’s far more strength training, isometric training at these end ranges that allow you to build strength, not just muscular strength, but also tendon and ligament strength, and that’s where I think I went wrong the first time around, is that’s why I think I got injured.


0:38:48.5 Jordan Syatt: Now, I don’t think it has… It’s obviously not the same type of full range of motion like eccentric, isometric, concentric strength training. I think, it’s a different type of strength training that they both complement each other. But if you don’t do both, then you won’t get the benefits of both. You can’t do one and expect to get the benefits of the other. I think you actually, to get the benefits of both, you need to do both. And so it’s been a very cool learning experience for me.


0:39:17.0 Mike Vacanti: You are… You just put on and have been putting on a clinic, and people don’t even know it, and then they will, in a certain time.


0:39:30.7 Jordan Syatt: They will one day.


0:39:31.7 Mike Vacanti: This is a business podcast without people even knowing it’s a business podcast, but they’re going to realize how much of a business podcast it is.


0:39:40.0 Jordan Syatt: Dude, big time. But it’s pretty sick though, right?




0:39:45.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, this is… If you’re in the mentorship, you know all about this and you may even understand. You probably do, but this is building anticipation like no one has ever built anticipation.


0:40:00.5 Jordan Syatt: Yep, yep.


0:40:01.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I still am not fully on board here in terms of…




0:40:13.2 Mike Vacanti: A body weight hold at end range might get you stronger, but it’s nowhere near the best or more efficient way to get stronger.


0:40:25.9 Jordan Syatt: Well, I never said it’s the most efficient, but I would say… Here’s what I would say, in terms of our typical idea of strength training, dumbbell rows, push-ups, chin-ups, all this stuff, that’s our typical idea of strength training, right? We’re working through a range of motion and we’re working the muscles through a range of motion. But this is taking the idea of strength training and expanding it outside of purely from muscular perspective and now thinking, “Okay, tendon, ligament, joint perspective as well.”


0:41:00.5 Mike Vacanti: I see, I see, okay.


0:41:02.0 Jordan Syatt: And, right? ‘Cause strength doesn’t only apply to muscles; it also applies to the tendons and ligaments that are involved as well.


0:41:08.9 Mike Vacanti: I’m fully on board with that, but you were talking about your adductors.


0:41:12.0 Jordan Syatt: Correct, which also definitively gets stronger. And there actually is research.


0:41:16.0 Mike Vacanti: But bro, that’s like saying you would get a stronger chest if you just held the bottom of a push-up position in an isometric. It’s like, well, yeah, you get stronger, but no one does that for strength because we have these tools that allow you to gain strength much faster and much more efficiently, which is why gym equipment exists.


0:41:34.0 Jordan Syatt: Correct. And I’m not saying that, again, this shouldn’t replace typical strength training, but I think it complements it unbelievably well.


0:41:43.9 Mike Vacanti: For sure.


0:41:44.0 Jordan Syatt: And I think because I haven’t trained at these end ranges, I am essentially experiencing newbie gains for it cause think about this, if you have a client doing dumbbell rows, for example, say dumbbell rows, and their posture sucks, right? Their posture’s terrible, so they’re doing it in a relatively short range of motion. So and you’re not gonna like, you’re still gonna have them do dumbbell rows, but maybe you’re just gonna expect it to improve over time as their posture improves, as their thoracic mobility improves. As their thoracic mobility improves, they get more upright posture, their range of motion increases now. And as that range of motion increases, they might actually need to reduce the weight because they’re accessing a range that they haven’t used before.


0:42:29.3 Mike Vacanti: Yep.


0:42:30.1 Jordan Syatt: They’re accessing a range like, “All right, I haven’t been here before. Now, I’m using a bigger range of motion, I need to reduce the weight because I’m training my muscles in a range that haven’t been trained yet… “


0:42:38.9 Mike Vacanti: 100″%


0:42:40.9 Jordan Syatt: “My posture sucked.” So now, they can get stronger in a range they haven’t been to before just from improving their posture.


0:42:41.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, because they have an increase in mobility and flexibility.


0:42:51.0 Jordan Syatt: Exactly. Yeah.


0:42:51.0 Mike Vacanti: Which allows them to access more range. 100%.


0:42:52.5 Jordan Syatt: Exactly.


0:42:53.6 Mike Vacanti: I agree. I agree.


0:42:54.3 Jordan Syatt: Exactly, yup. Exactly, yeah. So that’s why it’s been like… Now…


[overlapping conversation]


0:42:55.5 Mike Vacanti: And that’s why flexibility and mobility complement strength, but they’re different.


0:43:00.8 Jordan Syatt: Yes. Yeah, they do, but…


[overlapping conversation]


0:43:02.7 Mike Vacanti: And I agree with you that what you’re doing with splits is strengthening tendons and ligaments, absolutely.


0:43:09.5 Jordan Syatt: And muscles, it has to.


0:43:11.5 Mike Vacanti: And muscles. But not beyond…


0:43:11.7 Jordan Syatt: Because the thing with this like if I’m accessing a range I haven’t accessed before, I’m accessing a range that I’ve never been to before, and then in this range that I’ve never been to before, I am now isometrically holding myself in this position that I’ve never been to before, and I’m actually even doing a very slow eccentric contraction, is really probably a better way to describe it because I’m slowly getting further and further out. So as I go further and further out, I do a slow eccentric, then I do an isometric, and I’m holding in a range my muscles have never experienced before ’cause I haven’t had the mobility to do that. And so if we’re thinking about, “How do we get someone stronger to do chin-ups, someone who’s never done chin-ups before?” Slow eccentrics, they’re not doing the concentric. We might have them do an isometric hold at the top, slow eccentric all the way down until they are strong enough to then do that concentric. Eventually, you could do that same thing with a split where you slowly go out on these slides and then concentrically bring them back in. That’s an obscene level of strength, but it would still require muscular strength in order to do that.


0:44:11.2 Mike Vacanti: More range of motion doesn’t mean stronger, though.


0:44:14.5 Jordan Syatt: I never said it does.


0:44:15.9 Mike Vacanti: Okay.


0:44:16.7 Jordan Syatt: I said you now have access to get to train your muscles in a range of motion that you haven’t been to before so now, you can train your muscles to get stronger in that new range of motion.


0:44:26.6 Mike Vacanti: If I do a chin-up and I get my chin to the bar with three plates hanging from me, versus doing a body weight chin-up and I get half an inch above the bar, which is stronger?


0:44:39.0 Jordan Syatt: It depends how we’re defining stronger in this ’cause you are now training your muscles in a range they haven’t been to before. So I would say if you could then, if you could go from three plates chin-to-bar, but then you could eventually work up to three plates chest-to-bar…


0:44:53.4 Mike Vacanti: No, no, no, no, no, I get that obviously… Obviously, if it’s the same weight, the bigger range is stronger, but I’m saying three plates hanging from you…


0:45:01.3 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:45:01.9 Mike Vacanti: Half an inch less range of motion, compared to no weight hanging from you, half an inch more range of motion, which of those two is stronger?


0:45:09.7 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know if you can compare the two. Let me ask you this, ’cause I’ll use the exact same example: Three plates chin-to-bar versus body weight chest-to-bar, for example.


0:45:20.0 Mike Vacanti: No, no, no, half an inch, half an inch difference. I’m not saying a big difference in range ’cause I’m just talking about that extra quarter inch that you’re gaining ’cause it’s more range.


0:45:23.5 Jordan Syatt: Okay. Yup, so… But are you able… In this example, is the person who’s doing the three plates chin-to-bar, are they able to body weight, go get that extra half inch? Or is that range accessible to them?


0:45:39.0 Mike Vacanti: Of course, I would imagine, yes.


0:45:43.2 Jordan Syatt: Okay, so in that case, then you’re using more force in order to… And you’re using more force to get three plates plus your body chin-to-bar, no question, using more force.


0:45:54.8 Mike Vacanti: Yup.


0:45:55.2 Jordan Syatt: Right? But in that, let’s use the same, exact range of motion. Let’s use the same exact weight, three plates added on your body, one of them has a bigger range of motion.


0:46:05.8 Mike Vacanti: Well, then the bigger range of motion is stronger. Of course, I completely agree, but when we’re comparing body…


0:46:09.5 Jordan Syatt: That’s exactly what I’m saying. So when we have a bigger range of motion, you can train your body to get stronger.


0:46:14.0 Mike Vacanti: But when we’re comparing body weight to using weights…


0:46:17.8 Jordan Syatt: Yup.


0:46:20.0 Mike Vacanti: That’s what I’m getting at.


0:46:20.9 Jordan Syatt: But I could do a split holding weights. So it’s not necessarily about holding weights, it’s about the range.


0:46:26.7 Mike Vacanti: But that won’t be the most efficient… But you wouldn’t train your adductors isometrically; you would take… You’d do 10 sets of good girls, or you’d do something to take your adductors through a range of motion.


0:46:37.6 Jordan Syatt: Correct, but what if with those good girls, you couldn’t access the range that you want… That’s what I’m saying.


0:46:43.0 Mike Vacanti: Then you have less flexibility.


0:46:44.4 Jordan Syatt: You have less flexibility, but then the good girls, that’s a very specific strength movement, that’s just one function of the adductors.


0:46:52.8 Mike Vacanti: Correct.


0:46:53.5 Jordan Syatt: The adductors don’t just function in that way, they also function in other movement patterns.


0:46:57.2 Mike Vacanti: It was one loaded example.


0:46:58.8 Jordan Syatt: Right, yeah. That’s what I’m saying is their strength is demand-specific, and so that’s just one example of strength. Another example of strength is being able to hold yourself up in a split isometrically. It’s another example. Let me say this, if you’re standing up and you’re gonna eccentrically lower yourself into the bottom of a split, is that strength training for your adductors?


0:47:20.8 Mike Vacanti: I’m not saying that what you’re saying is not strength training, I’m saying it’s not efficient strength training. I’m saying that’s stretching.


0:47:27.2 Jordan Syatt: I think efficient is relative based on what your goal is.


0:47:31.0 Mike Vacanti: Okay, if your goal is to get stronger.


0:47:34.5 Jordan Syatt: Stronger for what? Like stronger to do good girls, stronger to do squats, stronger to do rows, or stronger to be able to do the Van Damme style split? I think the goal makes it whether or not it’s efficient.


0:47:48.5 Mike Vacanti: That’s true, that’s true. And the goal is being able to do the split because that’s a goal, you wanna be able to do the split.


0:47:55.8 Jordan Syatt: Correct, yup.


0:47:56.5 Mike Vacanti: But it’s stretching, all right? And no one’s gonna market me into thinking they’re not.




0:48:02.7 Jordan Syatt: Dude, it’s obviously stretching, for sure, and I would say it’s more a display of flexibility and mobility than of strength, but… All right, let me ask you this, Iron Cross, is that more a display of flexibility or strength?


0:48:17.9 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know what that is.


0:48:20.4 Jordan Syatt: The Iron Cross in the gymnastics, when they take the rings and just holding their hands, and if someone Googles the Iron Cross, they’ll see the gymnast is holding their body out completely to the side just with their arms.


0:48:32.8 Mike Vacanti: It’s strength because there’s no impressive range of motion with that movement.


0:48:36.8 Jordan Syatt: But then they can come from here all the way overhead, which is an impressive range of motion, and then come down.


0:48:42.3 Mike Vacanti: Not really. Anyone can…


0:48:44.1 Jordan Syatt: Of course it is.


0:48:45.2 Mike Vacanti: If anyone can put their arms over their heads, no one can do the splits.


0:48:48.5 Jordan Syatt: No, dude, you know that. No, you take like a 60-year-old, and not even we talk about people, but we talk about people who have overhead range of motion…


0:48:53.3 Mike Vacanti: Not any… I’m being facetious. Compare the 60-year-old’s overhead ROM to his splits, his overhead range of motion’s gonna be better.


0:49:02.2 Jordan Syatt: Correct, agree, 100%. But that’s an example of me saying that when you can hold yourself in that position, when you can do that Van Damme style split. I would say it’s more an expression of flexibility, mobility than it is strength, but I do think it is a tremendous expression of strength as well to be able to do it. And you can’t do it if you haven’t trained the strength for it.


0:49:27.6 Mike Vacanti: I think deadlifting four times your body weight is an impressive expression of strength.


0:49:33.0 Jordan Syatt: I mean I agree, for sure, yeah.


0:49:34.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I know you do.


0:49:37.8 Jordan Syatt: I agree, for sure.


0:49:38.8 Mike Vacanti: Link in bio for Jordan’s all you need to do is stretch and you’ll get stronger.


0:49:43.2 Jordan Syatt: I’m never saying that.




0:49:45.2 Mike Vacanti: Okay, alright, alright.


0:49:48.2 Jordan Syatt: But you can get stronger through stretching.


0:49:50.8 Mike Vacanti: It’s a terrible way to get stronger.


0:49:52.6 Jordan Syatt: Not if you do it right.


0:49:54.2 Mike Vacanti: No, if you wanna get more flexible, if you wanna be able to do the splits, if you want more mobility, what is the benefit of super physiological levels of flexibility?


0:50:05.2 Jordan Syatt: I don’t even know what super physiological flexibility is.


0:50:08.1 Mike Vacanti: Extreme, very impressive versus adequate range.


0:50:13.8 Jordan Syatt: Yup. Yup, yup.


0:50:14.2 Mike Vacanti: Because we know having adequate ranges is going to help with pain, but…


0:50:20.2 Jordan Syatt: I think that the benefits of excessive mobility are similar to the benefits of excessive strength. You take it to the extreme and it can actually become a big issue. Now, I think that what’s important to clarify is oftentimes, people will… And I shouldn’t say oftentimes, but there are many people who will develop extreme levels of mobility or maybe even have extreme levels of mobility, we could call it from Ehlers-Danlos syndrome or I forget the exact name, but EDS, where they’re so hypermobile, but they lack the stability in order to control it. So if you build high levels of flexibility, but along with the accompanying strength I have… And which basically means you now have the ability to control your body through that range, I would imagine it’s very difficult to build too much because you are balancing it with sufficient stability and strength to control your body through that range. Whereas, I think most times, when you see people building excessive strength. They’re building excessive strength through, oftentimes, not enough range of motion, they don’t have enough range of motion in other areas, and also often overloading their body, and we’ll call it their spine, their hips. They’re overloading things that are past the point of benefit. And you can do both in mobility or in strength.


0:51:53.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. It’s cool, super cool.


0:52:00.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:52:00.8 Mike Vacanti: Going from not strong at all to relatively strong is beneficial. Going from relatively strong to excessively strong is only beneficial for very specific things, and in general, might have more cons than pros.


0:52:16.2 Jordan Syatt: Correct. And we can see whether we’re talking about body builders or any elite athlete, so we could even use gymnasts, elite gymnasts. I would venture to say that if you speak to most elite gymnasts 10, 20, 30-plus years after they’re competitive, a huge number of them will have major issues with pain. And it could partly be due to such high levels of mobility that were not balanced properly, but also, I would imagine overuse injuries, probably be more likely. So for example, one major thing with gymnasts is they really hyperextend their lower back over… They land, boom, hyperextension. Land, hyperextension. Land, hyperextension. And that’s like when they land from a vault, boom, they go up super hyperextension, they do that hundreds and thousands of times, you’re putting a lot of stress on the spine. So it could be excessive mobility without enough stability to go with it. But I think anyone taking… Anything taken to the extreme, whether it’s strength or flexibility can be detrimental.


0:53:12.0 Mike Vacanti: Okay, I agree.


0:53:13.8 Jordan Syatt: You know who I think is a really good example of outrageous levels of strength with high levels of mobility is Jujimufu. You know Jujimufu?


0:53:20.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Well, I mean no, I don’t know him, but I’ve seen him do the Jean-Claude Van Damme thing, yeah.


0:53:26.4 Jordan Syatt: Dude, those Van Damme splits, he did it with like… I forget if it was 85 or 185 pounds, which is like fucking wild, and that’s crazy.


0:53:38.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah, good for him.




0:53:46.4 Mike Vacanti: Splits just never spoke to me, just never like… I don’t know.


0:53:51.2 Jordan Syatt: I feel you, man.


0:53:51.9 Mike Vacanti: No, you don’t ’cause they speak to you.


0:53:54.4 Jordan Syatt: No, I get it. I know that they haven’t spoken to you.


0:53:57.9 Mike Vacanti: No, not they haven’t. They don’t.


0:54:00.7 Jordan Syatt: They never will. I’ll never wanna do splits. I will say, man, I was thinking like, even today, putting my socks on, I just feel good.


0:54:09.5 Mike Vacanti: Bro, I feel amazing, and that’s…


0:54:12.1 Jordan Syatt: I love that, man.


0:54:13.1 Mike Vacanti: But that’s why I brought up the point about adequate versus excessive ranges.


0:54:18.8 Jordan Syatt: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yup. Correct, yeah, yeah. Dude, I forget you said it. There was a great quote I saw yesterday. It was like…


0:54:24.1 Mike Vacanti: They’re cool. How much money do you think that guy’s made off of being able to do the splits, being jacked, and hold weight?


0:54:31.7 Jordan Syatt: Millions.


0:54:32.3 Mike Vacanti: Like eight figures? Not nine figures.


0:54:34.8 Jordan Syatt: I would imagine… So I would say his business is worth more than eight figures. I don’t know if… Yeah, he’s probably made more than eight figures, I would imagine. I mean I don’t know really anything about his business model, but the potential, absolutely worth more than eight million, for sure.


0:54:50.5 Mike Vacanti: People like the splits.


0:54:52.1 Jordan Syatt: I think people like to see high levels of proficiency in something that most people can’t do. And now, I think there have been so many people who are just powerlifters or just bodybuilders or just marathon runners, and now, we’re seeing people like, “Well, I can be a bodybuilder, and I can be a gymnast, and I can be this, and I can be that.” And that’s where I think people are like… It’s sort of like what happened with geared powerlifting. Geared powerlifters were squatting 1000 pounds when they had a squat suit on. And then all of a sudden, you get these raw lifters with no extra equipment are squatting 1,000 pounds and people are like, “I don’t give a shit about geared powerlifting anymore. He’s doing without any equipment. That is way cooler!” And so now, you see people who are like, “Well, wow. That person can deadlift 500, and do the splits, and run a sub five mile, like that’s pretty fucking wild.” I think that’s what people are really impressed with right now, not being a one-trick pony.


0:55:57.3 Mike Vacanti: Interesting. And then the benefit of that is just whatever you wanna do with the additional attention.


0:56:02.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, 100%.


0:56:04.2 Mike Vacanti: If you can pull 500 and run a five-minute mile, you get more attention that you can then sell to or do whatever you want, compared to if you can only pull or if you’re only a runner and your audience is less as a result.


0:56:17.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, 100%, yeah. It’s an easy way to get more attention, right? So a lot of these people who do the splits, they’ll start their videos of them dropping into a split. Boom, you immediately have someone’s attention, right? Or like someone who can do crazy muscle-ups or a pistol squat, or something that is not common is a very easy, almost like a cheap way to get attention because now, you don’t have to focus on what words you’re using, you can just do something, which is like fair play to them. I get it, that’s awesome. It’s an easy way to grab attention and almost to then immediately say, “Look, I am an authority,” Even though it’s a fallacy, “Look, I’m an authority because I can do this.”


0:57:02.5 Mike Vacanti: I would say it’s a fallacy, especially for people who are just born hypermobile.


0:57:08.1 Jordan Syatt: Yes.


0:57:08.7 Mike Vacanti: People who had to earn it definitely have more authority in teaching others how to do it.


0:57:12.8 Jordan Syatt: 100%, yeah.


0:57:15.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:57:15.5 Jordan Syatt: But same thing, you see someone benching 500 or do an outrageous levels of strength at the beginning of their video, you’re like, “Ah, I’ll watch.” Like it just depends on what… You see a person doing a split, you immediately keep scrolling. But you see someone, I don’t know, Connor Bedard doing some crazy fucking move, you’re like, “All right, I’ll watch this whole thing.” Or you see, I don’t crazy puck handling, I don’t know what you’re into it, but like what if… Something’s gonna grab your attention.


[overlapping conversation]


0:57:37.1 Mike Vacanti: Well, I don’t…


0:57:39.7 Jordan Syatt: You see almonds, you see someone eating almonds and talking about gut health, all of a sudden like, “I’ll watch this fucking video.”


0:57:44.5 Mike Vacanti: I don’t listen to anyone talking about that, I just do that. Almonds are great.


0:57:52.8 Jordan Syatt: I’ve been putting on my salad.


0:57:54.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, that’s a good use.


0:57:55.2 Jordan Syatt: I like it. Makes it a little crunch, I like.


0:57:57.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah, going swapping out a lot of processed sugars and getting a lot of those calories, not a lot of those calories, but some of those calories back via almonds, like a serving or two per day, has been amazing for my digestion.


0:58:13.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, that’s big. I like that a lot. I mean almonds are fantastic.


0:58:21.5 Mike Vacanti: Good pod.


0:58:21.8 Jordan Syatt: Thank you, every one for listening, we appreciate it. We hope you enjoyed this little strength, mobility, flexibility debate. If you like the podcast, please leave a five star of you, they help a lot. And if you wanna join us in the mentorship, you can apply at the link in the show notes. And I think that’s all we’re gonna say. Have a wonderful week. Talk to you soon.


0:58:39.2 Mike Vacanti: See you next week. Good bye.

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