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In this episode, we go in depth on the pros and cons of owning your own business. We also discuss taxes (and how it’s theft 😂), how stupid creatine gummies are, and much more.


We hope you enjoy this episode and if you’d like to join us in The Online Fitness Business Mentorship you can grab your seat at


Thank you!

-J & M


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You can download a PDF version of the transcript here


Or you can expand to find the full episode transcription below:


0:00:11.5 Mike Vacanti: Hello, Jordan.


0:00:14.0 Jordan Syatt: What’s up Michael?


0:00:15.2 Mike Vacanti: Bro, how does it feel to just be dialed in life?


0:00:19.0 Jordan Syatt: I’m not dialed. I knew you were gonna say that. I’m not dialed, dude.


0:00:21.3 Mike Vacanti: You are so impressive.


0:00:22.0 Jordan Syatt: No.


0:00:23.6 Mike Vacanti: You wake up early, take the dog out.


0:00:26.2 Jordan Syatt: Dude, can you stop? This is a terrible way to start the episode, this is just the worst.


0:00:28.8 Mike Vacanti: It’s such a fun way for me though because you’re killing it.


0:00:33.0 Jordan Syatt: Well, I appreciate the kind words.


0:00:36.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, but let’s go in on this.


0:00:36.2 Jordan Syatt: Let’s not, let’s move on.


0:00:37.5 Mike Vacanti: I think everyone might be able to learn something.


0:00:37.7 Jordan Syatt: How To Become A Personal Trainer podcast.


0:00:40.3 Mike Vacanti: How to become a personal trainer by looking at the day-to-day habits of one of the great personal trainers.


0:00:46.2 Jordan Syatt: We could talk about my previous day-to-day habits from like 2011 to 2018. Now, my habits now are not like the grinding habits of someone early on in their business venture.


0:01:01.6 Mike Vacanti: Yes, they are.


0:01:01.7 Jordan Syatt: No they’re not.


0:01:02.6 Mike Vacanti: They are, someone who’s a little more balanced. Someone who’s a little more balanced.


0:01:06.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Much more balanced now. Now I’m maybe a little bit too balanced, if you know what I mean.


0:01:11.1 Mike Vacanti: Maybe optimal. You might just be optimal right now and…


0:01:16.2 Jordan Syatt: Could be.


0:01:16.5 Mike Vacanti: You know, we spoke about it this morning. I’m just very impressed. And so I thought maybe we could dig deeper into those day-to-day habits and routines. But maybe that’ll be another episode. It seems like today…


0:01:25.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, let’s make that episode 1000 or something.


0:01:28.8 Mike Vacanti: Nah, maybe 171, which is just a few in the future, but…


0:01:31.2 Jordan Syatt: We’ll see.


0:01:32.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I like the humility. That’s… I mean, hey, we can learn from that too, right?


0:01:37.9 Jordan Syatt: What’s up with you, Mike?


0:01:41.4 Mike Vacanti: Mike? I don’t think you’ve ever… You haven’t called me Mike since 2016.


0:01:43.0 Jordan Syatt: Since, you were taking… What was that pre-workout you were taking.


0:01:48.3 Mike Vacanti: C4.


0:01:48.4 Jordan Syatt: C4. Yeah. You were a real Mike back then. Now you’re Michael.


0:01:54.0 Mike Vacanti: I liked… I still like the C4. It has just got a little too much artificial sweetener for me. I get enough in other places.


0:02:01.2 Jordan Syatt: Where do you get your other artificial sweeteners?


0:02:02.7 Mike Vacanti: That’s not where we’re… I have this awesome opening idea and Jordan is like, no, let’s redirect it to something we’ve talked about 47 times in 168 episodes. Like… Oh man.


0:02:13.2 Jordan Syatt: What else are we supposed… We had a bunch… We had a big list to talk about today.


0:02:17.7 Mike Vacanti: Oh, I have a list. It’s right in front of me.


0:02:20.3 Jordan Syatt: Good.


0:02:21.3 Mike Vacanti: We’re gonna start with Jordan’s strongest held conviction. Not actually, but maybe one of, that tax is theft.


0:02:28.8 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yes. Yes. ’cause last time I brought this up, you were like, “well, I don’t know…” but now you’re on board. You believe it.


0:02:37.8 Mike Vacanti: …Eh…


0:02:37.9 Jordan Syatt: Wow. Dude, you change it up. As soon as we go recording, you change it up. Off recording, you’re like, “dude, I agree. It’s theft.” Now that you’re recording, now it’s different.


0:02:49.1 Mike Vacanti: Well, I said I agree in this like, hype conversation we were having around tax being theft. There’s a difference between bantering with the boys and really thinking about what you actually believe on something. And being like, yeah, tax is theft versus, okay, I’m gonna think through this is tax theft, so I’m gonna make an argument. For tax being, for federal income tax. First of all, this is your idea. Why don’t you outline your position first before I get into anything?


0:03:19.5 Jordan Syatt: No, no, I wanna hear, you’re just… You’re getting into a really good point. I wanna hear what you’re saying. I like this.


0:03:23.5 Mike Vacanti: No, I wanna hear some of your points first.


0:03:23.7 Jordan Syatt: No, no, no, you’re… You just started. I just wanna keep… I wanna hear this and I’ll adjust as needed.


0:03:30.7 Mike Vacanti: Basically, based on very limited research, it seems like there are a substantial number of people who don’t believe that federal income tax, which is tied to the 16th amendment, which was ratified in 1913 in the United States. There’s a substantial group of people, and I don’t know if they’re out of their mind or if they have a point, think that that amendment wasn’t actually ratified by three quarters of states, which is what’s required to ratify an amendment. And so that would be an argument for a federal income tax being legitimate theft.


0:04:15.1 Jordan Syatt: Like if they just did it anyway without what they needed to make it happen.


0:04:19.4 Mike Vacanti: Correct.


0:04:21.5 Jordan Syatt: So that… That’s… You’re going to the base of like, alright, was it actually ratified or not?


0:04:26.7 Mike Vacanti: Correct.


0:04:26.9 Jordan Syatt: Whereas I’m not thinking about that perspective. I’m not thinking about, for example, I’ll give you another example. Like let’s just say it was ratified. Let’s just say that it was, and let’s just say that legally they’re allowed to do it. Right?


0:04:41.7 Mike Vacanti: Okay.


0:04:42.5 Jordan Syatt: There are many laws that I think are stupid laws, right? Like laws that have been brought into legal power, for example like I don’t think people should be put in prison for having weed. Like I don’t think that… I think that’s stupid and there are still people to this day who are serving sentences because they smoked marijuana. It’s different if you’re distributing and selling and that… I think it’s a different story, but there are people in prison to this day who are in prison because they smoked weed, which is like, I think that is wild. And I think that that obviously is not theft, but I think that is criminal. I think that someone going to prison… I think that the government putting someone in prison for that…


0:05:27.2 Mike Vacanti: I’m with you.


0:05:28.2 Jordan Syatt: Is criminal.


0:05:29.3 Mike Vacanti: I’m with you.


0:05:30.2 Jordan Syatt: And especially now… And now it takes it to another level where so many states have legalized it that…


0:05:35.7 Mike Vacanti: I’m with you on… I think we’re all on board with the marijuana.


0:05:38.8 Jordan Syatt: So this is where my… We’re all on board. Move to the next fucking point, Jordan. What I’m saying is, regardless of whether or not it’s legally allowed, the concept is what I disagree with, if that makes sense. You know, where it’s like the concept of what…


0:05:52.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah, for sure.


0:05:54.0 Jordan Syatt: Is what I believe is theft. And there are so many other places where I’d like to see my money go. And I remember you, Gary, and I had this conversation years ago. It was probably 2017 or something where it’d be wonderful if you got to choose like a charity or you got to choose, a way to spend your money on small business or on… You got to choose like, hey, you could send it to the fire department or you could send it to teachers, or you could send it whatever you choose where your money goes. That I would have no problem doing, but I think one of the major issues that people have with tax is not just that the money is being taken, but that it’s being used for things that go against everything they stand for. And we don’t even know where it’s going. We don’t even know what it’s being used for. And there’s two levels to this. Number one, is that it’s being taken, period, which is a potential issue. And number two is that it’s being taken and being used in a way that is potentially definitively corrupt and we don’t know where it’s going and blah, blah, blah. That’s like, are the two separate issues that I have with it.


0:07:00.1 Mike Vacanti: Okay. So one of them, let’s go, let’s talk about the first one, which is the fact that it’s being taken at all because, I think that’s more interesting and even more controversial perhaps.


0:07:12.1 Jordan Syatt: I agree.


0:07:12.9 Mike Vacanti: What would a world look like without any taxation? Meaning… And you know, there are, people who are extraordinarily libertarian who do make this argument, but that basically means there’s no military. That means that the… Or it’s all privatized. Right?


0:07:34.1 Jordan Syatt: It doesn’t mean that… It doesn’t… It’s all prioritized. It’s a free market. It’s where you could… People who wanted to do it or could, they would essentially compete for the ability to… They would compete for the opportunity to do it best. And in a free market, whoever is.


0:07:54.3 Mike Vacanti: And so you believe that with education, you believe that with roads, you believe that with public utilities, that like all of these things should be privatized essentially?


0:08:06.5 Jordan Syatt: I’m not gonna go that far. I’m not gonna say I believe that it should be, but I do hear… So, and I understand this is conflicting. I very much understand that it’s conflicting. On one hand, I don’t want the taxes taken on the other hand. Well, it’s like, okay. If I had to give an answer right now, if I had to give a black and white yes or no, which I don’t think it really is that simple, then I would say yes, I think it should be privatized. I think it should be privatized. And I think that, realistic, I mean, think about it. Like think about how little teachers get paid, right? Teachers get paid way too little right now. And I think that if there was… If it was privatized, and I mean, even from what I can tell, ’cause I have my entire family is, on my mom’s side, is education.


0:08:54.5 Jordan Syatt: Almost all of them are education principals, superintendents, professors, teachers, generally speaking, private school teachers have way better pay, way better work schedule, way better benefits than public school. And if it were privatized, I think that people, or especially the teachers would number one, be incentivized to stay up to date with the curriculum. They would be incentivized to do their absolute best because I think it would be based on job performance rather than just, okay, you have this job now, you get tenured after a certain amount of time and then boom, you’re good. I don’t like that at all. I think it’s terrible. I have firsthand experience with that. And I think that… And I’m not saying there would be zero problems with this. I think there would definitely be problems, especially in lower income areas.


0:09:43.6 Jordan Syatt: And there’d be many issues with… In… Like there are issues with everything. I think there’d be issues with this, but I think that on the whole, it would be better than… And teachers would be compensated more fairly and it would actually inspire them to do better and keep learning and really uphold the high degree of training that they need in order to be an amazing teacher. Right now, like at least in my experience, I didn’t have that many amazing teachers. I can count on one hand from elementary school to college how many amazing teachers I had. I have a feeling if it were, if teachers were more, at number one, if they were paid better and if they had more incentive to work harder and to really do an amazing job right now they… Why would they have an incentive? Like they’re paid like shit. Why would they even want to? I think if they had an incentive to do it and there were more competition to be a good teacher, then I would be counting on 12 hands how many amazing teachers I had over that time period.


0:10:40.2 Mike Vacanti: It sounds like “taxes are theft” is a nice slogan, but at the heart of it, you could say what you believe even more firmly is that your current tax dollars are not distributed in the way that you find optimal.


0:10:53.3 Jordan Syatt: Correct. 100%. Yeah, that’s exactly right.


0:10:55.4 Mike Vacanti: So it’s more a problem about the efficiency of government and the way that they spend your money rather than the fact that you have to pay anything.


0:11:04.1 Jordan Syatt: Correct. 100%. That’s exactly right.


0:11:05.7 Mike Vacanti: That makes sense. Cool.


0:11:09.2 Jordan Syatt: What about you?


0:11:10.5 Mike Vacanti: I got another topic for us.


0:11:11.1 Jordan Syatt: Oh wow. We’re just breezing right on? You don’t have anything to add to that?


0:11:14.6 Mike Vacanti: We’re 11 minutes into this political thing and no, I don’t. I don’t have anything to add to that. Creatine gummies. I can’t believe you don’t know about these things.


0:11:24.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I haven’t heard of those.


0:11:26.0 Mike Vacanti: That actually makes me extremely happy that you don’t know about them because your engagement with your audience, I find is a good proxy for trends. And the fact that no one is bringing this up to you is a good thing. Basically, two or three months ago I saw a tweet with quite a bit of engagement on it from an account that didn’t have a massive following about how awesome creatine gummies were. I don’t remember the exact tweet, but something to that effect. I was like, what is this? And realized the person who tweeted it was the founder of a creatine gummy company. And I was like, okay, this makes more sense. And I was like, why is it getting so much engagement with his not very big following? And the fact that it wasn’t like, I don’t know, I didn’t think there were compelling reasons in the tweet. And it was supported by people outside of the fitness space who were affiliates for the brand who have big Twitter followings, big email lists, whatever.


0:12:20.3 Jordan Syatt: That makes sense.


0:12:20.5 Mike Vacanti: I was like, “oh, okay. This is like starting to add up. I was like, what are the benefits of these things?” And basically there aren’t any additional benefits over just a powder creatine that you’re mixing in with a shake. Right? It’s just more convenient. There aren’t physiological benefits to taking gummies with creatine in them compared to creatine monohydrate that…


0:12:40.0 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:12:41.8 Mike Vacanti: Like we’ve always taken. The cost difference is unbelievable. And I only know… I only know one company that sells them, and I’m not gonna name them here just ’cause I don’t even, like, bad publicity is publicity. I don’t wanna give them any exposure. But for one bag, which is a 30-day supply at four and a half grams of creatine per serving.


0:13:05.6 Jordan Syatt: Per gummy? Okay.


0:13:06.0 Mike Vacanti: Three gummies is a serving, so one and a half per gummy, three gummies a serving 90 gummies in a bag is $70 which is…


0:13:13.0 Jordan Syatt: Holy shit.


0:13:15.5 Mike Vacanti: Which is nine… And creatine in general is more expensive now than it was, you know.


0:13:17.6 Jordan Syatt: When we were… Eight years ago?


0:13:18.8 Mike Vacanti: But even like, you know, pre 2020, I feel like it climbed at a pretty high rate. It’s nine times more expensive than creatine powder. So in the…


0:13:31.6 Jordan Syatt: That’s insane.


0:13:32.1 Mike Vacanti: And I wrote the numbers down here, like the one that I have used, just because I trust the company and their reasonable prices is Optimum Nutrition, and I buy it on Amazon, you get 120 servings, which is 600 grams of creatine for $37. So, we’re… It’s 6 cents per gram of creatine in the powder versus 52 cents per gram of creatine in these gummies.


0:13:58.3 Jordan Syatt: That’s Insane.


0:14:00.6 Mike Vacanti: Insane. And what really…


0:14:00.7 Jordan Syatt: That’s absolutely insane.


0:14:02.4 Mike Vacanti: What pissed me off about it the most, I think there’s two things. One is I’m…


0:14:07.7 Jordan Syatt: But you’re paying a couple of bucks for one serving of creatine. And that got… That’s crazy.


0:14:12.7 Mike Vacanti: Insane. What upset me about it was one, I think I just have this worldview around cost cutting and personal finance of unnecessary things being a good way to achieve freedom faster in life. And so there’s a mix of that with seeing these non fitness people pedal it to their audience, knowing how much they’re getting to promote it to their email lists like that gave me that AG1 feeling of like, this has to be such a high margin product, $70 for 90 gummies. I cannot imagine what their COGs are like there is no way that their cost of goods is more than $10 a bag. And I would imagine it’s like less than five. And then with all that margin, $70 a bag, less than five, they can pump that into ads. That’s why they can pay these affiliates so much.


0:15:09.6 Mike Vacanti: So anyway, I had a client who asked me about them, and I was like, I’m not a fan for these reasons. And he was like, I think it’s kind of a cool idea. I don’t mind spending the money. Like, I like the idea of it. Is it okay on a physiological level? I was like, yeah, I don’t see anything wrong with it if you’re cool with spending the money. And so that was the third touch point of how it got on my radar. So he likes it, which is great for him, but for most people, I just don’t think they make any sense. And, yeah.


0:15:41.4 Jordan Syatt: Number one, completely agree on all of that is I’m glad that I’ve never heard of it or at the very least that I’ve heard it so few times that I don’t remember it. And then to take it in another direction, why the fuck does everything have to be gummied? Like why does it… Why… Like, I was talking about this yesterday. We were taking a CPR course yesterday and we were talking about… Not only… It wasn’t only on CPR, it was also first aid, choking, poison, we were talking about poison control, all this stuff. One of the poison control issues is kids getting into the gummies, their vitamin gummies and eating a whole container of vitamin gummies. And the woman teaching the course was like, if you get vitamin gummies for your kids, and I immediately, I was like, I’m not getting my kids vitamin gummies.


0:16:26.6 Jordan Syatt: They’re not gonna have vitamin gummies. If they’re gonna have vitamins, they’re not gonna be fucking gummies. But… And we can talk about that in a second. But she… It was important information. She was like, if you do get them, get the ones without iron. Because if they have iron and they take a whole container, have a big handful, whatever, then, you go to the ER, get their stomach pumped. If it’s without iron, then they should be fine. Their pee might be like green because they have just all the shit in it, but like, they’ll be fine. Whereas if there’s iron in it, then you can really overdose on it and there’s a big problem. But back to the gummy, like why does everything have to be gummied? Like, I don’t… I understand it’s easier for your kids to take.


0:17:05.0 Jordan Syatt: I get it. But number one, if you’re in a first world country, everything is fortified. You don’t even need the multivitamin in general. Not to mention you’re just giving them candy. It’s just fucking… If you… And I don’t think it’s a good idea to get to… I think it’s unbelievable marketing. It’s an incredible sales tactic. It’s fantastic, but it… That’s what… It’s marketing and sales. It’s not actually for health. And I think gummifying everything and just giving kids and adults these gummies is like just fucking take the creatine, put it in your damn water and just drink it. It’s… I don’t get it. I don’t get it. And it’s… It really infuriates me.


0:17:41.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I think it’s the can define of something to make it more enjoyable to link pleasure with a good, supposedly good habit. I haven’t thought this far ahead, but I would imagine like even for kids, if they’re eating a nutritious diet, the addition of a multivitamin probably isn’t necessary.


0:18:05.0 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:18:07.6 Mike Vacanti: If they are, like how would you, if you were to have your kid have a multivitamin and it wasn’t…


0:18:15.0 Jordan Syatt: You almost busted out her name, I saw it.


0:18:18.6 Mike Vacanti: No, I didn’t, I didn’t. I’m dial. I almost didn’t even say Kurt’s name here on the pod.




0:18:25.0 Jordan Syatt: How would I get her to take a vitamin?


0:18:27.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Because they can’t swallow a whole vitamin until a certain age, I would imagine. I don’t know.


0:18:34.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I mean, honestly, I probably wouldn’t. I’m just… I’m not giving her a… Like no, I’m not doing it until she can obviously, and I’m not gonna like have her do a gummy just because, like I’m number one just making sure she’s eating an overall nutritious diet, which so far hasn’t been that difficult. And I know, oh, wait until you have another one. Every time I’ve done something, wait until this time, wait until this time, like before I had a kid. Wait until you have a kid and then you won’t be able to work out. Okay, I have a kid and I can still work out. Wait until you have this. Right. It’s like wait until you have a puppy and I still work out. Wait until this, it’s like there’s always something. Wait until, wait until, wait until, so I have another one on the way. B’ezrat HaShem everything will be fine.


0:19:10.1 Mike Vacanti: But that’s a function of you getting feedback from hundreds of thousands of strangers.


0:19:17.7 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:19:18.5 Mike Vacanti: You’re just gonna have people with such a wide array of opinions.


0:19:19.7 Jordan Syatt: Wait until, wait until. Yeah. But either way I’m just not… I’ll wait until they’re at a point in which they can take a multivitamin, which again what a blessing. We live in the United States, we’re in a first world country. Things are fortified. It’s pretty easy to get everything you need. I think children’s multivitamins are like Athletic Greens. It’s just, you don’t need it. Now if you’re growing up in a third world country and like your diet is lacking something significant, there are things that you can do in order to make sure that happens. And if the only way for your child to get vitamins and minerals is through a gummy, great. Absolutely do it for sure. But it’s not outrageously difficult for a child in the United States, assuming they’re not starving and they’re not homeless. Right. Like we’re assuming the average individual, they’re fine.


0:20:17.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. You’re applying the third world country logic to poverty within the United States as well.


0:20:21.4 Jordan Syatt: Correct. And there is obviously severe poverty and homelessness in the United States for children, but I’m talking about generally speaking. Yeah.


0:20:29.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Makes sense. Talk to me about…


0:20:33.6 Jordan Syatt: Oh God.


0:20:36.8 Mike Vacanti: Video games.




0:20:36.9 Jordan Syatt: I can tell based on the tone of your voice… That it’s gonna be something you’re trying to figure out. If I’m gonna be upset by it, like talk to me about it.




0:20:44.1 Mike Vacanti: I can lead on this one actually.


0:20:50.1 Jordan Syatt: Okay.


0:20:50.9 Mike Vacanti: So, I in the last four days downloaded, I think the first ever cell phone game that I’ve ever downloaded.


0:20:58.0 Jordan Syatt: No way. You didn’t tell me this.


0:20:58.1 Mike Vacanti: No, I haven’t. It’s brand new for the pod.


0:21:00.2 Jordan Syatt: Why wouldn’t you tell me this?


0:21:02.7 Mike Vacanti: It’s brand new for the pod. I like to save some things for the pod.


0:21:06.3 Jordan Syatt: Did you deliberately not tell me for the pod?


0:21:07.2 Mike Vacanti: No. I just didn’t think it was that interesting. But I also know that you have experience with video games and talking about video games in general is interesting.


0:21:13.6 Jordan Syatt: Was it a hockey game?


0:21:13.7 Mike Vacanti: Nope. I downloaded Yahtzee. I had played it before. It’s this…


0:21:18.0 Jordan Syatt: Okay. That’s like the most Mike game. That and chess are definitely like video games that you would play.


0:21:25.5 Mike Vacanti: So, I play Yahtzee, my sisters like it, so we’ll play if we’re doing a family game night and we’re not doing a board game or cards ’cause I’ll push for cards. We’ll do Yahtzee like one out of 10 times. There’s this Yahtzee cell phone game that it’s like Yahtzee on cocaine. And there’s just all flashing this and these colors and all of this stimulation added, there’s levels to it. You win prizes, there’s… Dude, it’s unbelievably addicting. You’re going against the computer, but then you level up like a video game. It’s not just normal Yahtzee. And so I found myself… And they’re very… The whole point of the game is to make money. And the two ways they make money is.


0:22:10.8 Jordan Syatt: Oh wow.


0:22:12.0 Mike Vacanti: They run ads.


0:22:13.4 Jordan Syatt: Oh, oh, for them to make money. Got it.


0:22:17.0 Mike Vacanti: No, no no no for the company. Yeah. The two ways they make money are through ads or they try to get you to buy dice in this game, which is…




0:22:25.0 Mike Vacanti: I know people, I guess supposedly spend money on these fictitious cell phone games. I’ve heard of it. But dude, it’s addicting. I can see how they get you in so many ways. So I was noticing my own behavior, like time spent on the game and then you run out of dice and it’s like okay, you can’t play again for two hours and there’s a countdown until you’re allowed to play again. But you can buy 30 dice for only $2.99 and then even within the Yahtzee game, it’s… Because it’s fun. Each level gets harder. Are you familiar with Yahtzee?


0:23:04.0 Jordan Syatt: No.


0:23:04.0 Mike Vacanti: Okay. For anyone who is, in this game there’s multipliers. It’s like if you’re good at…


0:23:13.8 Jordan Syatt: Is it a math game?


0:23:15.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. If you’re good at probability and statistics, there’s like optimal ways to play each turn, which is true in general in Yahtzee, but the equations become even more complex and like fun to figure out. And then there’s the rewards through like getting prizes and leveling up in the game. Anyway, I gotta delete this thing off my phone because otherwise it could ruin the rest of my life. But…


0:23:38.5 Jordan Syatt: Have you been playing it?


0:23:39.6 Mike Vacanti: I’ve been playing it for the last four days. Yeah.


0:23:41.8 Jordan Syatt: Did you play it today?


0:23:42.7 Mike Vacanti: I think I played a little bit today. I realized maybe two days ago like oh, this could be extremely dangerous. And so I’ve been cautious. Probably played for an hour yesterday.


0:23:56.6 Jordan Syatt: Awesome.


0:23:56.7 Mike Vacanti: I think I played one… It takes like five minutes to play one game. I think I played one game this morning while the coffee was brewing.


0:24:02.8 Jordan Syatt: Got it.


0:24:03.4 Mike Vacanti: And I was like enough of this, I gotta do some work, but only because I recognized, I mean, I’m on level 49 in four days, so there’s…




0:24:14.0 Mike Vacanti: Anyway if you…


0:24:16.4 Jordan Syatt: How many levels are there? Are they infinite?


0:24:16.4 Mike Vacanti: Who knows. I then googled to see if anyone else could… I was like “Yahtzee insert game name is extremely addictive.” And there was a whole Reddit thread of…


0:24:26.3 Jordan Syatt: Oh really?


0:24:26.4 Mike Vacanti: “I’m so pissed. I’ve spent so much money.” “I feel like the whole point of this game is just to make me a gambling addict.” Like da da da da.




0:24:32.8 Mike Vacanti: And then all the replies are like “yeah, me too.” “This happened to me.” “I spent this money.” It’s very addicting.


0:24:38.9 Jordan Syatt: Oh man. Wow. I mean I think in 2020 I spent like 200 bucks on a shooting game over… After a while.


0:24:47.1 Mike Vacanti: I never knew you spent money… I knew you spent lots of hours on that game. I didn’t know you spend money on that game.


0:24:52.1 Jordan Syatt: I could’ve swore I told you that I spent money on it. Yeah. ’cause you were like “I’ve heard…”


0:24:54.2 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:24:54.5 Jordan Syatt: And I was like, he knows I spent money on this game. Yeah. I was playing this shooting game and I was really into it and it was 2020 and after a while, like I just, I was like “yeah, you can like buy this gun and it’s gonna be like… It has got this much hit power” and da da. And I was like “all right. Fuck it. I’ll just crush everybody with this gun.” And I got the gun and it wasn’t even really better than the other guns. And so I still wasn’t dominant. And it was like “well, you can buy this gun now.” And so I just kept doing that. I spent like 200 bucks on this fricking game and then I was like “I’m done. This is terrible. I can’t believe I spent $200 on this game. I’m out.”




0:25:35.0 Mike Vacanti: It’s almost like the 2020… It’s like a modern version of something that had more purity to it, meaning media in the ’90s wasn’t addictive. Media now on our phones is.


0:25:58.6 Jordan Syatt: Super addictive.


0:25:58.7 Mike Vacanti: Super Mario 1 on regular Nintendo wasn’t as addictive as these games now that are… And they’re trying to get extra money out of you. It’s just…


0:26:08.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. It’s true.


0:26:09.4 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know. It just feels dirty to me.


0:26:14.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Now I play Call of Duty on my phone, but it’s not nearly as addictive. Like one game can take like 20 minutes. And I just play one game at a time and that’s it.


0:26:27.1 Mike Vacanti: Nice.


0:26:27.6 Jordan Syatt: And it’s not asking me for money. It’s not… And at most I’ll play like 45 to 60 minutes in a day. Yesterday I didn’t play any, but like just spent the day.


0:26:35.6 Mike Vacanti: Well, and that’s the way that video games should be used, right? As a little bit of enjoyment, a little leisure, a little break during the day. That makes sense. I suppose it’s a combination of one, the right game and two, you being in the right place in your life maybe to not get addicted.


0:26:56.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. It’s also like after one game, like I don’t want to play again. It’s also really interesting, so in order to start the game, it takes several minutes for the game to actually start. They’ve gotta get a hundred people in. So a hundred people are playing against each other. So it takes a little bit of time for a hundred people to join and then it loads out. And so by the time the game starts, it has already been like three minutes or so, which is a while, like for a game to start. And then the first few minutes of the game where you are just going around collecting your equipment. So, before the game really starts, it’s like five to six minutes and it’s like after the game ends, I’m like I don’t want to go through that whole fricking process again. I’m done. I had my time. I’m out onto the next thing. Like whatever I need to get done. So it’s actually really interesting ’cause I think if they wanted to make it more addicting, they would just make it faster. Start the next game, start the next game, start the next game. Like immediately. Like no time to think. So it’s very interesting how that works.


0:27:55.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Good on them. For the designers not making it as addictive.


0:27:57.2 Jordan Syatt: Hopefully they don’t hear this and change it. Designers of Call of Duty mobile, listening to the How to Become A Personal Trainer podcast.


0:28:04.6 Mike Vacanti: Speaking of designers of Call of Duty wanting to become personal trainers, you had on our list to talk about today, maybe the pros and cons or just speaking in general about owning your own business.


0:28:18.5 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah. I was doing an Inner Circle live on Monday and one of the women in the Inner Circle, she… They can ask me anything and she asked me, and was like, “Hey can you talk about like pros and cons of owning your own business?” And I was like “oh, this would actually be a fun conversation for the How to Become A Personal Trainer Podcast.” Do you wanna start or you want me to start?


0:28:39.8 Mike Vacanti: Up to you, I’m a P man, you know that I just go with the flow.


0:28:44.6 Jordan Syatt: Alright. I’ll start with what I like initially spoke about on the Inner Circle live and we’ll go back and forth and add some stuff as well. But what I really hit home on a few days ago was that like with everything, there’s pros and cons and I think Gary has really been pretty outspoken in recent years in terms of how being an entrepreneur is now something that’s like looked up to and aspired to be. Whereas for a long time it was, if you say you’re an entrepreneur, like you’re a loser. No one wants to be an entrepreneur. And so now it has become the status symbol to say that you’re an entrepreneur, you have your own business, and it’s almost like negative now if you work for someone else, it’s almost… It’s funny. It’s similar to renting, dude, people look down on people… Like homeowners often look down on renters, which is very interesting.


0:29:31.6 Jordan Syatt: Like homeowners will be like, “you’re an idiot, you’re paying someone else’s mortgage.” It’s like yeah. But they also didn’t have to put a huge down payment and they can take this money and they can invest it elsewhere, and they don’t have the stress and anxiety of having to fix up their home. And I think many homeowners… And keep in mind I’m building a house, like I get it, like I’m a homeowner, but many homeowners have been like brainwashed into thinking that this is an amazing financial investment. Just owning a home and it’s not necessarily an amazing financial investment. There’s a lot of stress that comes with it. There’s a lot of anxiety that comes with it. It could end up being… If you end up selling it, you could make a profit, but you could not, depending on where the market is and what’s going on at that time.


0:30:15.8 Jordan Syatt: So it’s not a guarantee. And I think a lot of homeowners, they really get into the sunk cost fallacy where it’s like they’ve put in all this time, all this money, they’ve really bought into the societal idea that owning a home is the pinnacle. And then as soon as someone says, well, “I’m renting,” they’re like “oh, you’re a loser. You should buy a home.” And so I think that’s sort of where we are with entrepreneurship, where it’s like people are looking down on people who work for someone else. And that’s stupid because for some people it’s a much better option. Working for someone else generally means that you don’t have to work as much. The stress of putting all the fires out doesn’t sit on you. You don’t have to be working on the weekends necessarily. You don’t have to be working out of the office necessarily.


0:30:57.9 Jordan Syatt: You have your job, you get your job done, boom, it’s done. You don’t have to think about it outside of work. Whereas if you’re running a business, you never stop thinking about it. It is always on your mind. It’s always up to you. You’re the person, you’re the man, you’re the woman behind, like everything has to happen and it’s insanely stressful. Like no matter what, it’s insanely stressful. So I think the pros really start to come, if you can make it past the first like probably five to seven years, the major benefits start to come if you can make it past that first five to seven years or so, and it’s different for everyone, but I say five to seven because some people will have really early success and then it dwindles off. Like they might have a lot of success the first year, first two years, first three years, but then years four, years five, years six, and so on, like it starts to dwindle.


0:31:46.9 Jordan Syatt: They didn’t actually do it right. So I think after five to seven years, if you can really maintain it, that’s when you’ll start to notice the benefits of potentially more freedom, being able to delegate more, hire out. You have more opportunities to find balance probably, but it comes after, I think you put more work in those initial 5, 7, 10 years than most people will put into a 40-hour a week job for 20 years. Like you smush so much time and energy and work into that timeframe that you front load it and then you get the benefits of ideally not having to work as hard. But again, that’s not everybody and it depends what type of business you have, but the pros and cons are very real. I don’t think it’s for everybody, but if you don’t wanna be constantly on call, you definitely don’t want to be a business owner. That’s for sure.


0:32:40.3 Mike Vacanti: Man. Well said. I’m on board. I think there might have been one small thing I disagreed with in there related to the first handful of years. Only because I hated working for someone else so much that even when I was… When I moved to New York City, had an unpaid internship to start, like didn’t really have money coming in the door, even when I did was making substantially less than I was at my full-time job. Working more hours under more stress. I was so much happier with the flexibility. Flexibility meaning if I’m gonna work a 100 hours instead of 60, but I get to pick when those hours are and I get to wear whatever I want and I get to sit however I want and I don’t have to go to lunch at this time with these people and eat this low protein meal that like everyone… Like having control over every decision was such a benefit for me that even with the downside, I still… Like it was night and day more enjoyable.


0:34:00.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. That makes sense.


0:34:00.9 Mike Vacanti: One thing that I think is overlooked about having your own business and maybe around security is what Taleb talks about in Antifragile, which is if you have your own business, people think of that as riskier than working for someone else because it’s a 9 to 5, you get a paycheck, paycheck comes every other week. Versus you could have customers cancel when you have your own business. You can have good and bad months when you have your own business, but there’s a binary element to a salary, which is you either make the salary, meaning you’re employed or you make zero if you get fired. Whereas in the example he gave in the book, it was a taxi driver, but you can apply it to any job when there’s a recession or when there’s an economic downturn or when unemployment is high, when things are going poorly on a macro level, your business isn’t going to zero.


0:35:01.1 Mike Vacanti: Your business might take a 30% haircut. Right? You might be doing much worse than you were last month or even 50%, but you’re still in the game. You might have to work more hours, you might have to adjust your strategy. You might have to spend very little to bridge the gap until things are better on a macro level. But when you are a salaried employee and things get bad and there are layoffs, you go from making your full salary a hundred to making zero which is a different kind of risk that people don’t fully understand. Instead of going from a 100 to 60, you go from a hundred to zero. I think that’s something that is understated in the discussion. The other thing, having worked in corporate and worked for myself, the amazing thing about working for yourself, and then I’ll give some cons, is you are rewarded based on your effort.


0:35:54.9 Mike Vacanti: Whereas in most corporate jobs, there’s not a linear relationship between what you bring to the company and your compensation essentially. Meaning you can be the absolute best in your class, but Oh, we cap raises at 12% or even be a phenomenal negotiator. Like if you dominate your own business, you can see a 100% growth year over year in almost no industry does a salary employee see a 100% raises year over year. Like just doesn’t happen. And so the fact that entrepreneurship is almost more fair and more merit-based.


0:36:38.2 Jordan Syatt: Yes. Correct.


0:36:38.2 Mike Vacanti: If you kinda stink and obviously it takes time to build a business, but if you’ve been at it for five years and you haven’t gotten any traction, that’s the market telling you what’s happening versus.


0:36:50.5 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:36:51.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. There’s just a more direct relationship between your performance and your compensation with your own business rather than working for a boss.


0:36:58.6 Jordan Syatt: Correct. And I think it’s an important point. It’s definitely definitely more fair. There’s no nepotism. It’s the market.


0:37:11.6 Mike Vacanti: Politics, HR…


0:37:13.7 Jordan Syatt: It’s none of that. It’s like the thing that you said that is, I don’t think it’s based on effort, it’s based on skill, right? So it’s like…


0:37:21.7 Mike Vacanti: Results, which is a combination of all the… Yeah, you’re right. It’s not just effort. Yes. Output.


0:37:25.8 Jordan Syatt: Exactly, it’s like someone could be super super good, or even, for example.


0:37:33.2 Mike Vacanti: And work less.


0:37:34.4 Jordan Syatt: And work less or even like we see the people…


0:37:36.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I am with you.


0:37:36.8 Jordan Syatt: Who have insane physiques and they just… And yeah, they’ve worked hard on that, but we also have someone who doesn’t have that physique and they still work really, really hard, and they’re not really good on camera and they can still do it, it just usually takes a lot longer.


0:37:50.2 Mike Vacanti: And it’s not just effort, you’re absolutely right? It’s the combination of things. Yep.


0:37:55.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. And in addition to that… And again, this is… It’s the most fair thing there is… It’s the most fair. Like way more fairer than working in an office. For sure. The thing about being fair is it doesn’t always go your way, which is like, it’s fair in that if you work hard and you’re good, it could be outrageous and you could get that 100%, 200%, 500% growth year over year. But if you’re not good, you could not make anything and that’s very real, so it definitely does go both ways.


0:38:29.7 Mike Vacanti: And that doesn’t mean you can’t get good…


0:38:32.3 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:38:33.0 Mike Vacanti: It does mean that like… Yeah, it’s not a slam dunk over… There are definitely people better suited for working for someone else compared to working for yourself.


0:38:41.8 Jordan Syatt: Which is so funny, I love that you brought up fair, ’cause I hadn’t thought about it in terms of fairness. It is the most fair thing ever, it’s the most fair thing when it comes to business, which is funny ’cause you hear about people in the workplace being, “Oh, it’s not fair that I get paid this much and you get paid that much,” it’s like… Yeah, you signed up for it to not be fair, when you signed up to work for me, it’s like you’re working for someone else, it’s not fair inherently, ’cause…


0:39:10.2 Mike Vacanti: Absolutely.


0:39:11.2 Jordan Syatt: That’s what you signed up for.


0:39:13.4 Mike Vacanti: And even in a bigger company, it exists more, which is…


0:39:17.7 Jordan Syatt: Yes.


0:39:18.6 Mike Vacanti: Politics, like perception doesn’t equal reality.


0:39:23.0 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:39:23.8 Mike Vacanti: Someone might be extraordinarily skilled and dominant on their work, but they appear to be lazy for whatever reason, versus someone who is more socially savvy, is replying to messages at 10:30 at night is on email all the time, but they’re not actually bringing value, but… “Oh, he looks like he’s killing it, he always replies fast,” it’s harder to know who’s good, and who’s not good, and there’s just so much, I guess, likeability helps you both with your own business and in corporate, another con… Go ahead.


0:39:53.8 Jordan Syatt: I was gonna say, Gary has brought up a really good point too, which Gary is super upfront about if you have someone who is the best salesman in the office, but they are a cancer to the office, you fire them, which might sound like it’s not fair, because it should be that whoever is bringing in more money to the office should get the promotions, they should be there because they’re contributing the most to the company, but if people don’t like them, if they are causing more harm and disruptions in the office and they’re not being positive to the office as a whole, even though they’re the best salesmen, get them out, which might not be fair based on their performance, but it’s not just about performance, it’s about everything that’s going on within that office and how you’re impacting other people in that office, so… I just love the concept of fair, ’cause I think inherently, as humans, we want what’s fair, and if you’re working for someone else, it’s inherently not fair.


0:40:51.7 Mike Vacanti: And working for yourself is.


0:40:53.2 Jordan Syatt: Yes, correct.


0:40:58.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. A downside or something most people would view as a downside to having your own business… And you touched on this, but it’s 24/7. Like in a 9 to 5 job, in many 9 to 5 jobs, I have a lot of friends who work 9 to 5s and have never opened their computer after 9 to 5, Monday through Friday, who’ve never worked on a weekend, who’ve never had to work… Had to take home the stress of work outside of the hours that they are working versus having your own business, especially when you’re building, but even once it’s built like…


0:41:32.6 Jordan Syatt: Correct.


0:41:33.7 Mike Vacanti: You’re still on all the time to some capacity. And hey man, I don’t even know how many years I worked every single Saturday and Sunday, and still usually put in at least a couple of hours on every Saturday and Sunday… Just part of the game.


0:41:53.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. And like someone who’s working for a company would feel really upset, urgh, like, “this isn’t fair, I’m working on this Saturday and Sunday” versus, “Cool, so don’t do it.” Right? But when you’re working for yourself, it’s like, it’s not a matter of fair and it’s like, “This is mine, I’ve gotta do this, and this is what’s gonna happen.”


0:42:14.6 Mike Vacanti: But I wanna build this, it’s like, okay, if I have a client request come in on a Saturday, am I not gonna reply until Monday at 9:00 AM? What if they’re applying to multiple coaches?


0:42:24.3 Jordan Syatt: Yes.


0:42:24.3 Mike Vacanti: Or with current clients that you’re working with, maybe they email you on Saturday morning, you see it, you can get back to them quickly. And it depends how you set your business up, but you’re gonna benefit more from working more, and the success of your business is gonna benefit from you working more, and so… Yeah, there’s definitely downsides. Oh, I got another downside, I actually feel this way, there’s a push and pull on freedom, the pro is that freedom in general just seems like a good thing, I don’t have to do what my boss tells me. I don’t have to work at these times. I can work whenever I want, I can work wherever I want, I can go on a beach and I can work from Thailand for a month if I want to.


0:43:11.6 Mike Vacanti: Like there’s these freedoms, these… And by the way, you can’t do that because you actually can’t even see the screen when you’re sitting on the beach and the sun is reflecting, but I know that has been sold to a lot of people versus the downside of all that freedom, which is very little accountability, like no one is cracking the whip on you, and I know a lot of people who are motivated by having… I don’t want my boss to be mad, I need to get this done by this time, because this is when I was told to get it done, whereas if you’re working for yourself, you need to build your own accountability somehow, ’cause you don’t have someone telling you exactly what to do and when to do it.


0:43:51.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, 100%.


0:43:53.8 Mike Vacanti: You’ve got anything else on having your own business? I think that was a good subject.


0:43:57.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I think I’ll finish with, it’s… For me, it’s without a doubt the right thing, and not just because of what I’ve done, but because I hate having other people tell me what to do. I hate it, I absolutely despise. And I’ve hated it since I was a kid, whether it was in school or when I’ve had odd jobs here and there, when I worked in other people’s gyms, I hate having someone tell me what to do, and so I’m the one telling me what to do now, and that’s it. And that’s wonderful, and that for me… Like I feel like it probably would have been more stressful for me to work for someone else because I would have just absolutely hated it, it just wouldn’t have been good, whereas this, I got to build, and even though it still unbelievably stressful at certain times and very very difficult. I think it would have been more stressful to hate what I do, and to have to listen to someone that I didn’t like and be around people that I didn’t like, and be…


0:44:58.7 Jordan Syatt: I think that would be way worse for me. So there’s also the other side of it though, which is, I started it when I was a teenager, and I didn’t have a wife and no kids, and I had much more freedom, whereas if I was starting it at 32 years old with a wife and a daughter and another one on the way, and a dog, and knowing how much time and effort had to go into it, I’m not gonna say it wouldn’t be worth it, but the expectations would have to be very different in terms of the rate at which progress would be made, it’d be very different than what it was when I first started. Never mind the difference in how social media is now, how platforms work now, their rate of growth would inherently be different, I’m not saying it’s not worth it, but I would have to be working when I would otherwise be with my wife and child, which is like…


0:45:55.6 Jordan Syatt: That would be what I would have to do in order to make it work. And if that’s not something that I was willing to do now, ’cause you only have kids for a few years before they’re, I think JP talk, you have them for like five years. Innocence is gone, and you start to see innocence diminishing after five years or so, those first five years are so special, so unique. It’s like, Okay, is it worth it for you to not spend as much time with them? Like for right now, I haven’t been going to jujitsu because I have a guy come here train with me once or twice a week, but I haven’t been going to night classes because that’s when we put my daughter down, and I’m not willing to miss putting my daughter down even a couple of nights a week, just because I only have a few years of this, so it’s like I would rather not get as good at jujitsu now and get to put my daughter to sleep and just maybe do that on the back end, so…


0:46:48.2 Jordan Syatt: Which I think is a perfect parallel to… At this point, maybe I would rather not build that business now, just suffer through working with these people and doing what I need to do to pay the bills, and then once you’re a little bit older and maybe more independent, depending on how things go, then I can start building that business. But it really depends on the person.


0:47:05.6 Mike Vacanti: I think. We talk about balance within a career and within a lifetime rather than within a day. I think that if you were in that position at 32 with no business with your current family and situation, I think you would just build your business slower. I think you’d have to have balance within the day, and that might mean you go back to college style 4:00 AM wake-ups and you get a certain amount of dialed focus working before your family is even awake. You would find ways to get it done that wouldn’t allow you to grow as fast as you did from 2016 to 2018, 2019 when you were doing nothing except working 18 hours a day, but… It’s a rate issue. It’s a rate and an expectation issue, how fast can you expect to grow and having proper expectations knowing that, Okay, obviously, I’m not gonna be able to out-compete this single person who does nothing except work, but I’m not comparing myself to them, I’m trying to achieve balance here in my own life.


0:48:15.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, 100%.


0:48:19.3 Mike Vacanti: ‘Cause I don’t think you would work for someone else, even if you were in your position right now with… Not to mention, then you’d be gone during the day, every day five days a week.


0:48:27.3 Jordan Syatt: Correct. Exactly, yeah, yeah. Yeah, fuck that. Absolutely not.


0:48:31.7 Mike Vacanti: Good episode, we got a mentorship Q&A in 11 minutes, so we’re gonna get that set up, thank you very much for listening to the podcast.


0:48:38.3 Jordan Syatt: Well hold on, before we sign off. We’re going on a mentorship Q&A right now, just so you’re aware, we are going to be doing a sale for the mentorships and we haven’t done a sale in… How long has it been?


0:48:49.7 Mike Vacanti: Nine months. I think July.


0:48:51.8 Jordan Syatt: Nine months. So candidly, the mentorship has been going really well. It has been going really well. The members are absolutely freaking crushing it, it’s amazing. And we didn’t even realize that we hadn’t done a sale ’cause we usually do several throughout the year, and then we were like, Holy shit, we haven’t done it in a while, so we have one coming up soon. Things are different now, because in order to join the mentorship, you have to apply, so if you would like to join, start sending in your applications now, and we’ll give you the details, we will announce when the sale is live, but just start sending in your applications. Link is in the show notes if you wanna go to the website. Send in your applications, but we’ll have a sale coming up, I don’t know, what do you think? A month or so?


0:49:38.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:49:39.2 Jordan Syatt: Probably within a month. Alright, start sending your applications now, and we’ll give you the date and all of that when you’ll be able to join during the sale, but like always once the sale goes live… Or sorry, once the sale is over, it’s over, price goes back up to normal, so when… If you send in the application and we send you the dates and everything that this sale is happening and we announce it here, do not hesitate, once we say it’s live, it’s live, and once it’s over, it is over, and every time there are people, Oh, can we get in? No, sale is over and we give you plenty of notice, so letting you know now, get your applications in, link in the show notes and that’s it.


0:50:15.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, that’s… is the URL. Link in show notes.


0:50:21.3 Jordan Syatt: Have a wonderful week.


0:50:22.6 Mike Vacanti: We’ll see you next week.


0:50:22.7 Jordan Syatt: Talk to you soon.


0:50:23.1 Mike Vacanti: Bye everyone.

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