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In this episode, we discuss and outline the most important principles for you to build a successful online fitness business in 2024.


We hope you enjoy this episode and if you’d like to join us in The Online Fitness Business Mentorship you can grab your seat at


Thank you!

-J & M


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You can download a PDF version of the transcript here


Or you can expand to find the full episode transcription below:


0:00:11.9 Mike Vacanti: Hello, Jordan.


0:00:12.8 Jordan Syatt: What’s going on, Michael?


0:00:15.3 Mike Vacanti: I woke up in a bad mood today.


0:00:16.7 Jordan Syatt: Oh, geez. That’s not good.


0:00:18.7 Mike Vacanti: Actually, you know what, I think I woke up in a decent mood and do you know the first thing I did?


0:00:25.0 Jordan Syatt: You…


0:00:26.8 Mike Vacanti: It’s not good. It’s not aligned with my goals.


0:00:28.2 Jordan Syatt: You scrolled.


0:00:29.5 Mike Vacanti: Yup, which app?


0:00:32.5 Jordan Syatt: Twitter.


0:00:33.0 Mike Vacanti: Yup. And what was the first thing I saw? By the way, good two guesses a great start to the pod. You’re on fire.


0:00:43.2 Jordan Syatt: Bro, I’m pretty good. I’m gonna guess it’s something about American politics.


0:00:49.7 Mike Vacanti: I saw a New Yorker at a pro-Palestinian protest…


0:00:56.4 Jordan Syatt: Oh wow.


0:00:56.8 Mike Vacanti: In Manhattan.


0:00:56.9 Jordan Syatt: I didn’t think that was gonna be it. Oh, burning an American flag?


0:01:00.9 Mike Vacanti: Burning an American flag was literally what I woke up to.


0:01:02.5 Jordan Syatt: And that’s supposed to be a free speech.


0:01:04.5 Mike Vacanti: And ever since this day has just… It’s dreary, it’s rainy.


0:01:07.2 Jordan Syatt: I’m not gonna say which, better like…


0:01:10.8 Mike Vacanti: I took the anger out on the weights, like borderline intentional poor form, because I was just angry to the point of being okay with hurting myself just to throw weight around. And bad night sleep, ate like trash the last two days, all of these things contribute, but…


0:01:26.6 Jordan Syatt: That was just the…


0:01:28.6 Mike Vacanti: The straw.


0:01:30.0 Jordan Syatt: Not the straw, that was just the fucking…


0:01:31.0 Mike Vacanti: The spark in the powder keg.


0:01:33.0 Jordan Syatt: No, that makes it seem like it’s a small thing.


0:01:37.2 Mike Vacanti: Oh okay.


0:01:37.8 Jordan Syatt: It’s actually a really big thing. I was trying to… That was the fucking boulder that finally broke the camel’s back. That was a fucking mountain avalanche coming down. That’s a big deal when you… And I don’t think people understand how big of a deal that actually is.


0:01:55.2 Mike Vacanti: And we can talk about that. I was coming from the context of personal responsibility around knowing that these apps are polarizing, knowing I shouldn’t spend time on them, knowing what I’m gonna see when I open something like that, and doing it anyway, out of this complete addiction to social media.


0:02:13.2 Jordan Syatt: It’s probably the better way to go. [laughter]


0:02:14.8 Mike Vacanti: No, I like your way, I wanna go your way actually, let’s just lose money by going all the way in. I’m into that.


0:02:21.3 Jordan Syatt: It’s just insane to me. And I don’t care who it is, I don’t care who the person is…


0:02:26.8 Mike Vacanti: Before we go into it. Go ahead, go into it.


0:02:31.8 Jordan Syatt: Wow, are you sure? I feel like we’re still all over the place. You wanna go first?


0:02:36.3 Mike Vacanti: No, I don’t wanna go first. You… I kept cutting you off, I wanted to talk about the other side of it, but I’m going to talk…


0:02:40.9 Jordan Syatt: Well, let’s talk about the other side though. Let’s do that first then we’ll go to the other side.


0:02:45.4 Mike Vacanti: The other side is, we live in an era when most people under the age of 40 can’t watch a TV show, or can’t watch a movie. We’re actually, we put something on the TV in the background and then scroll on our phones. And I say we, I mean, 97% of people who I interact with, including myself, most of the time. And I think it’s only getting worse, and I think it’s gonna have very bad mental health outcomes, I think it’s gonna have very bad outcomes for society.


0:03:15.6 Jordan Syatt: Dude, you’re preaching, and I struggle with it too.


0:03:21.4 Mike Vacanti: Oh, I know.


0:03:21.6 Jordan Syatt: I very much struggle with fucking scrolling. You know what I mean?


0:03:24.7 Mike Vacanti: But isn’t it wild that the thing that people thought was books to radio, radio to TV, people thinking the next thing is gonna be hyper-addictive, the thing that our parents or parents of our generation, if they were doing a good job, would have monitored the amount of time we spent on it, and many of them did, because it was like, “Okay, don’t sit too close to TV, you’ll go blind, don’t sit and watch too much TV, go play outside.” And now this thing that was supposed to be addictive, can’t even control the attention of the masses, because there’s something even more stimulating.


0:04:02.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah dude.


0:04:04.0 Mike Vacanti: Not being able to watch a movie is wild. You used to have someone who worked for you, who we would hang out with, who was in that almost borderline Gen Z demo and watch two movies in his entire life, ’cause he couldn’t. And bless his heart, love the guy, but he couldn’t watch a movie because it was just phone first, social first.


0:04:22.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah dude. It’s a problem, it’s a big problem.


0:04:25.8 Mike Vacanti: But not as big of a problem as.


0:04:27.8 Jordan Syatt: No. It might even be more of a bigger problem than that, to be honest, ’cause I mean it’s gonna… I think that the first problem leads to the second problem. The first problem gives you this false idea of… Especially living in America, if you’re scrolling all the time, you see all this propaganda, there’s all this, like telling you how horrible life is and how things are terrible, and how you live in the worst place ever. Meanwhile this is literally the greatest place in terms of freedoms. In terms of access to basically everything. And not just the United States, but there are many countries, first world countries, I would say, in which people now, because they’re looking at their phones constantly all the time, and they’re being fed lies about how terrible it is where they live, they believe it, and then they think it makes sense to go and burn that country’s flag. And what they’re really supporting is organizations and ways of life that would gladly slaughter them if they exercise the same right that they have here. If they exercise that right there, slaughtered immediately.


0:05:40.0 Jordan Syatt: And I think it actually plays into one another, and I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive. I think they’re very much play into one another and to the fact that now people can believe that living in America is one of, is a terrible country or. It goes to show that they’re deep in the scrolling, ’cause there’s no other way they would believe that. They wouldn’t believe that if they weren’t deep in the scrolling. If they had a modicum of knowledge of history, if they had read an actual book and not a fucking TikTok or Instagram Reel, and knew anything about history, then they would be saying, “Thank God I am privileged enough to live in this country, not the other way around.”


0:06:18.5 Mike Vacanti: Man, way to tie those two together. That was impressive. And you’re absolutely right.


0:06:24.7 Jordan Syatt: It’s just the truth.


0:06:24.8 Mike Vacanti: And we can even look at the number of people who want to immigrate into, and we could call this a basket of western countries or we could just call it America, either conversation is fine, but almost nobody leaves, and tens of millions of people, I mean, millions that people are coming, tens of millions, hundreds of million want to if they could. Legal immigration…


0:06:49.9 Jordan Syatt: People risk their lives to get here. They risk their lives. They literally die trying to get here for the freedoms that we have, that we take for granted. The quintessence, the personification of privilege, of idiocy, of ignorance, all wrapped up into one. And keep in mind, it’s not to say there aren’t issues, every country, every relationship, there’s a issue with everything. But just because they’re our issues, doesn’t mean that it is not the most amazing place there’s ever been in history in terms of freedom, in terms of who’s allowed to be here, in terms of why people want to be here, it’s just… It’s outrageous, and it really is the absolute personification of idiocy at the highest level.


0:07:45.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, you’re preaching.


0:07:48.6 Jordan Syatt: And delusion. It’s delusion is what it is. It’s just, it’s delusion.


0:07:52.9 Mike Vacanti: Completely insane.


0:07:53.9 Jordan Syatt: How was your workout though? Was your workout good?


0:07:55.5 Mike Vacanti: Angry. It was an angry workout.


0:07:57.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, that’s a good workout.


0:07:57.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, it was good lift. It’s good lift. How are you? You got a little Gatorade Zero over there.


0:08:03.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, Gatorade Zero. Yeah.


0:08:04.6 Mike Vacanti: You’re getting some steps in, you’re drinking Gatorade Zero, you’re kind of dialed.


0:08:11.5 Jordan Syatt: I wouldn’t say I’m dialed. I’m actually, I’m pretty dialed right now, I am pretty dialed. Things are going pretty well.


0:08:16.0 Mike Vacanti: Attaboy.


0:08:18.2 Jordan Syatt: Making good content, making good moves fitness-wise, spending get amount of time with wife and daughter and dog. Yeah, things are pretty balanced. Pretty good right now. Not as lean as I think I should be. I think I’m a little chubbier than I should be. Nothing crazy, but I’m also not worried about it.


0:08:42.0 Mike Vacanti: Single digit number of pounds.


0:08:44.3 Jordan Syatt: Yes, yeah like..


0:08:45.4 Mike Vacanti: Nine.


0:08:45.7 Jordan Syatt: Three pounds maybe.


0:08:46.9 Mike Vacanti: Oh.




0:08:47.0 Mike Vacanti: That was amazing. Hang on, hang on.


0:08:56.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, “you got like nine.” That was awesome.


0:09:01.1 Mike Vacanti: You by the… Let me, I gotta give the context.


0:09:04.3 Jordan Syatt: Oh man Mike, just fat shaming me over here.


0:09:05.4 Mike Vacanti: No, here’s the context.


0:09:08.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, dude that was unbeliev… That was like a movie. That was like a fucking movie.


0:09:13.2 Mike Vacanti: Are you not gonna let me give context?


0:09:17.5 Jordan Syatt: [laughter] Go for it.


0:09:23.0 Mike Vacanti: You said that you wanted to lose 10 pounds. And so, I assumed it was in the 8-10 range was about what you wanted to lose. So I thought I was reaffirming where you were at… And by the way, for any… Hang on and I have a second point actually, for anyone to think they’re a little chubby, but three pounds too chubby, that’s a very fine line, that’s…


0:09:47.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:09:48.5 Mike Vacanti: You’re really dialed in to your body in that case, to know, to walk the line that close.


0:09:53.2 Jordan Syatt: Super down everybody. When I said 10 pounds, ’cause I have that maintenance range of 10 pounds and I’m at that upper end range right now, I also don’t feel like I want to go, I don’t wanna go into a legit cut and lose those 10 pounds now, so I’m like, “Maybe just a couple of pounds and then be closer to the middle range.”


0:10:12.7 Mike Vacanti: Looks like I’m calling you out.


0:10:16.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, you are. I get it dude.


0:10:18.1 Mike Vacanti: I’m not, you said you wanted to go from 155 to 1… You were like, “muscle ups would be way easier at 145.” So I thought you wanted to go from 155-145.


0:10:29.9 Jordan Syatt: Maybe eventually.


0:10:30.0 Mike Vacanti: I think you could gain more fat and still look amazing. I think you should. I think you should, bulk. And I don’t mean lean bulk, I mean like a little dreamer bulk for a couple of months.


0:10:39.4 Jordan Syatt: Lee Haney bulk? Little fucking…


0:10:39.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, chicken wings. Lots of chicken wings.


0:10:46.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, that was amazing, that clip will live and not the opposite of infamy, that was just the best thing I have ever seen in my life.


0:10:54.2 Mike Vacanti: Three nine. That was good.


0:10:57.5 Jordan Syatt: Single digit, but close to double digit nine. [laughter]


0:11:05.0 Mike Vacanti: That was good.


0:11:06.2 Jordan Syatt: You’re pretty dialed lately.


0:11:08.4 Mike Vacanti: I’m glad you feel good. I’m not dialed.


0:11:08.8 Jordan Syatt: Your gut health has been… Yes, you have. Yes, you are. Your gut health’s great, you been having sauerkraut.


0:11:16.2 Mike Vacanti: You are a gut health connoisseur, but I have been having sauerkraut with my eggs.


0:11:18.4 Jordan Syatt: And you’re in the gut health Prime Minister.


0:11:20.4 Mike Vacanti: Well, you gonna make me… No offense to the Brits, but I mean prime… Canadians, who else has prime minister?


0:11:26.1 Jordan Syatt: You’re gut health president.


0:11:28.7 Mike Vacanti: That’s better.


0:11:30.7 Jordan Syatt: That’s better. I’m like the gut health Secretary of Defense, you’re the gut health president. I just serve on your cabinet.


0:11:38.8 Mike Vacanti: Can I tell them what you’re doing tomorrow?


0:11:41.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, go for it.


0:11:42.6 Mike Vacanti: You’re getting a colonoscopy, and so I can’t be… At age 32, I can’t be the gut health connoisseur with you here.


0:11:50.5 Jordan Syatt: You are 37, I’m 32 just for… Yeah, no, I’m just doing it ’cause I want to…


0:11:55.6 Mike Vacanti: Did say I was 32?


0:11:57.6 Jordan Syatt: No, but I think it might have been confusing ’cause you’re like at age 32, I can’t be the gut health King. I mean, when you were saying, at age 32, I’m getting a colonoscopy, but just making that clear for everybody.


0:12:07.8 Mike Vacanti: We’ll have to see what the punctuation looks like on that. I believe I said you’re getting a colonoscopy at age 32. Period.


0:12:13.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:12:13.1 Mike Vacanti: Space, space.


0:12:14.8 Jordan Syatt: I think there was a pause there. It was just a little bit like…


0:12:17.2 Mike Vacanti: Fast, ’cause am still angry.


0:12:18.7 Jordan Syatt: I just wanna learn more about my body for the colonoscopy, you know what I mean? But, you know gut health, you’re like money man.


0:12:28.6 Mike Vacanti: Jordan does this thing… Remember when you were in third grade? And you were like, “you’re stupid,” and the other person goes, “No, you’re stupid.” That is Jordan strategy in a lot of these conversations. And so when I say, “you’re a gut health connoisseur,” he just goes “you’re a gut health connoisseur.”


0:12:44.8 Jordan Syatt: The best part is you get a little bit agitated.


0:12:51.6 Mike Vacanti: It works. A little? I get very agitated. It’s extremely effective.




0:12:54.4 Jordan Syatt: I wish I could see eight-year-old Mike dealing with someone who is doing that, just to see how you handle your…


0:13:02.2 Mike Vacanti: Poor emotional control probably led to a wrestling match, just not… Yeah.


0:13:08.5 Jordan Syatt: Wrestling was off the table for you ’cause hockey, there was just like never a moment where you were thinking, Hey, maybe I’ll wrestle.


0:13:16.2 Mike Vacanti: No, no, it wasn’t.


0:13:17.9 Jordan Syatt: Did you know anyone who wrestled it? Did you have wrestling in your school?


0:13:20.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah, we did. I don’t know that I knew anyone who wrestled until high school. I’m trying to think if in middle school… No, we had a really good wrestler in middle school, lightweight kid, little kid, Jason Ness, he was a beast. He might have been like a college national champion, actually.


0:13:40.4 Jordan Syatt: Oh geez.


0:13:41.6 Mike Vacanti: I might be making that up. Let’s find out. Oh, he’s a wrestling coach at the University of Minnesota, a national champion and the most decorated wrestler in program history, Ness holds a school record for career pins with 73.


0:13:56.3 Jordan Syatt: Dear Lord, in high school?


0:13:58.1 Mike Vacanti: No, in college.


0:14:00.3 Jordan Syatt: That’s insane. That’s really insane. Good for him. What a beast.


0:14:03.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. No, wrestling was never as a sport, it was just hockey all the way and some golf in there, a little football for a few years.


0:14:13.0 Jordan Syatt: You played football?


0:14:13.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.


0:14:14.1 Jordan Syatt: Wait, like middle school?


0:14:14.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, 5th through 8th grade.


0:14:17.4 Jordan Syatt: What position? What’s your favorite position that you played.


0:14:21.4 Mike Vacanti: It’s hard to… My favorite position was probably like corner safety outside linebacker, we were in a three… Now we were on a 4-4-3, which isn’t something that they… That’s like a kid’s defensive scheme for defensive lineman, four linebackers and two corners and a free safety, but that was light weight. So in middle school, they split us up into heavyweights and lightweights because some kids had gone through puberty, some hadn’t. And you had Tarak Baboushka, who was already 330, and then you had kids who…


0:15:00.7 Jordan Syatt: Was named Tarak Baboushka? Is he polish?


0:15:03.6 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know, his first name was Tarak for sure. Big strong dude, but heavy, and then…


0:15:10.2 Jordan Syatt: Big strong Polish boy.


0:15:10.3 Mike Vacanti: You had kids who weren’t developed and…


0:15:12.7 Jordan Syatt: Some of them had to lose nine pounds, some of the had to loose three pounds.


0:15:19.3 Mike Vacanti: No one had to lose any. You just had… It was actually probably not bad long term.


0:15:22.8 Jordan Syatt: That you did football?


0:15:24.6 Mike Vacanti: No, no, that there’s heavyweights and lightweights, because you get used to being the big fish in a small pond, and then you go to high school and realize that you’re nothing.


0:15:33.2 Jordan Syatt: If you’re the biggest kid in a lightweights, that’s probably a real shock to the system when you get to highschool.


0:15:41.7 Mike Vacanti: And I wasn’t. I was probably middle of the pack lightweights.


0:15:44.2 Jordan Syatt: Got it. Okay. Oh man, should I talk about this event that I spoke at the other day?


0:15:50.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Let’s tell them about it.


0:15:52.5 Jordan Syatt: Oh man, this was amazing. So, literally, if you’re a regular listener, you know that my memory is terrible. Susan, if she’s listening, she’s laughing, she knows like people who know me know that it’s not like… I think people who don’t know me think that I’m just not paying attention or whatever, it’s just like… My memory is really bad. ESTP, whatever it is. When I go to speak at an event, it’s not… I’m not joking, when I say I don’t know whose event it is, I don’t know, and I figure out what I’m gonna speak about when I’m on my way there. Like I’ll talk to my assistant, I’ll be like, Hey, what, is this a business event? Is it a fitness event? Because that will dictate… And I have my talks already, I know my business talk, I know my fitness talk. It’s not like I just make it up on the go, but I don’t know until really the day of. It’s sort of like… That’s sort of how I am in general. If I have something coming up and people are like, are you excited about it? So I don’t really get excited about something until I’m on my way there. I’m not like two weeks beforehand being like, Oh, I can’t wait. It’s just like…


0:17:03.6 Jordan Syatt: Usually on the day of I will get excited. Anyway, go to this event, don’t know who it is, what’s going… I know nothing about it. And regardless, I realize I’m giving a business talk, my talk doesn’t change based on who it’s too, in terms of, I don’t change my principles based on who’s listening. It’s the principles are the principles regardless. And I go to this event and I’m the keynote speaker, so I’m finishing this event, it’s been like a two-day event, and basically, I get up there and without realizing it, I start saying all the shit that they’ve been taught this whole weekend is nonsense. And I’m standing up there in front of, I don’t know, 50, 75 people and has…


0:17:55.1 Mike Vacanti: Coaches mostly?


0:17:56.9 Jordan Syatt: It’s all coaches. It’s all coaches. Coaches who, people who are in the same position as I would imagine coaches listening to us right now, they wanna build their business, they wanna help more people, and I’m standing there and I’m saying things and I’m watching their jaws literally drop, and I’m hearing audible gasps, and I’m watching people turn their heads towards the guy who organized this whole event. Like they’re doing this thing, when they look at him, they’re like, Oh my god, did he just say that? What’s his reaction gonna be? Almost like if you have a sibling and your sibling does something bad and you look at dad, like, Oh my God, dad, did you see that? Are you gonna punish that? That type of thing. And everything from…


0:18:41.7 Jordan Syatt: I remember this one person said like, they’re a high ticket coach and for high ticket prices. And I just interrupted and I was like, All right, listen, here’s the deal. I fucking hate the term high ticket coach and immediately gasps from everyone looking at the guy because I think that they call themselves high ticket coaches. And I went off and I was like, when I was coming up in the industry, coaches identify themselves based on what type of coach they were, like what the goal of their clients was. So like, a fat loss coach, a performance coach, a powerlifting coach, a running coach. But now all of a sudden coaches are identifying themselves based on how much they charge. Like where the fuck did this industry go wrong? And I’m saying all of this and people, their jaws are dropped. And I’m just like, man, I’m starting to understand. I must be speaking to a group of people who just were told very, very differently.


0:19:33.9 Mike Vacanti: Because you weren’t getting the normal reaction and they were all looking over the guy…


0:19:41.0 Jordan Syatt: Especially at the beginning it was not the normal reaction and then there’s this one woman in the back, she asked a question, she was like, you have a big social media, how many people are on your team? How many… Are they answering your DMs? Dah, dah, dah. And I was like, absolutely… I was like, you think I give someone my password to be in my instagram? Like, absolutely not. If you get a DM from me, it’s me. I was like, and basically I said to the effect of if you have someone in your DMs answering your stuff for you, like you’re a loser. Because a lot of the questions were based around how do you develop a genuine, authentic relationship with your audience? And I’m like, how can you expect to develop a genuine authentic relationship with you and your audience if it’s not even you that’s communicating with them? And again, like jaws dropped looking at this guy. And finally the guy had to stand up and be like, “guys, it’s okay to have different opinions. You can stop looking at me like, it’s okay if we don’t do things exactly the same,” which I respected a lot.


0:20:34.8 Mike Vacanti: Which is cool of him.


0:20:37.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Super cool of him. And I think he… I think, yeah, I think it was a very smart move and it’s accurate. It was actually really great.


0:20:50.4 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know if you said this and I just missed it maybe, but you weren’t just a speaker, you were the keynote speaker.


0:20:52.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I think I said that. I think, yeah, I was the keynote speaker at the end of the whole weekend. There was actually, I didn’t tell you this part. This was really good. So there’s one kid there, young kid, probably looked around like 24 to 26 years old, maybe even younger, and apparently has a huge audience on TikTok. And I’m in the middle of my talk talking about how chasing likes and follows is like chasing monopoly money. How it’s just like, it’s a waste of time, it’s not gonna be good. And he’s like, hey man… And I can tell he’s been paying very close attention. And with a very intrigued mindset, like he’s having a very good reaction to everything I’m saying. And he’s like, you’re saying this and he’s like, but I’ve been able to build a really big audience. But he’s like, if I’m not supposed to chase that, what am I supposed to chase?


0:21:38.0 Jordan Syatt: So I’m not supposed to chase likes and follows, what am I supposed to chase? And dude, you would have loved this ’cause it was like classic motivational interviewing on stage, it was actually very cool. But I asked him, I was like, tell me this, what is your favorite part of making content on social media? What’s the favorite part for you? And without hesitation, he was like, when people say that they leave a comment or they DM me and say, you changed my life. And I was like, that’s what you chase. You chase that. You don’t chase the likes, you don’t chase the follow, you chase that and if you’re chasing helping people, if you’re chasing meaning and purpose and giving people an opportunity to learn from you and to really help them, then everything else will come from that but that’s what you chase. If chasing the likes, chasing the follows, that’s a recipe for disaster for everybody. And that he was so appreciative and he was very much like, I really needed to hear that.


0:22:31.5 Jordan Syatt: And it seemed like at the end of that conference, that’s what they needed to hear after a weekend of learning about conversions and getting people to DM them immediately and having a team DM them and getting on a conversion call. It was just like, I think they just needed to hear, you’re a coach, your job is to help people. Being a coach is a respectable stand-up career. How about we focus on helping people first, and then with that, you’ll end up… You’ll be able to support your family, be able to make money and all that, absolutely. But build it on the back of a great coach helping people, not targeting people based on their income and trying to get more likes and followers. So, it was a good talk.


0:23:16.2 Mike Vacanti: Sounds like you killed it. It sounds like they needed to hear a lot of that. And it sounds like it landed, which is great. When they were primed for the opposite from every speaker all weekend long.


0:23:28.4 Jordan Syatt: There’s one person I think who was offended when I basically said that if you have a team of people answering your DMs, you’re a loser but overall I think everyone else really liked it.


0:23:40.8 Mike Vacanti: That’s fine. That’s fine. What like losers, one word and I definitely… I don’t think that’s wrong. I would also say it’s just completely disingenuous to borderline fraudulent, especially if they’re pretending to be you if they’re answering as you.


0:23:56.2 Jordan Syatt: Yes exactly.


0:24:01.6 Mike Vacanti: If they’re signing off like “Jimmy,” “Dave’s assistant, Jimmy,” whatever the names are, cool. But yeah. Wasn’t there another, like someone asked, they said they had been taught that any time that anyone liked one of their posts, they were supposed to DM them within 15 minutes and immediately try to get them on a conversion call, was like the strategy.


0:24:30.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, they literally immediately DM and say, “hey, if you’re free, let’s hop on a quick call in the next 15 minutes,” no matter what time, 2:00 AM, whatever. And someone said like, well, what am I supposed to do if it happens at like 2:00 AM.


0:24:41.1 Mike Vacanti: In the middle of the night.


0:24:42.9 Jordan Syatt: And yeah, and it’s like, “get your team on it.” I was like, I can’t believe that was someone said that. Yeah.


0:24:48.8 Mike Vacanti: That’s a strategy being taught is.


0:24:52.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.


0:24:55.5 Mike Vacanti: It’s so backwards. It’s so short term. It’s so like trying to maximize revenue in the short term, ignoring building a solid foundation for your business, but also ignoring the value of your time. Because DMing someone who likes a random post of yours on social media with the intent to get them on a phone call to sell them on, even if it’s not high ticket, if it’s $300 a month, fitness coaching is such a poor use of time. Because to use their terminology, that is a very weak lead. That’s a very cold lead. That’s like someone liked a post of yours, on average, they’re not about to sign up for your fitness coaching.


0:25:43.2 Jordan Syatt: Correct. Yeah.


0:25:47.6 Mike Vacanti: Continuing to help people, continuing to make content, continuing to answer comments, reply to DMs, help people for free over weeks and months and years while simultaneously letting your audience know that you offer coaching, which could be via a launch or could be via soft mentions like we talk about all the time in the mentorship and have so many people doing well in the mentorship, that is how you’re gonna build your one-on-one coaching effectively and in a time efficient manner, not by having dozens of calls with people. Like put yourself on the other side of that. You stumble across someone new on social media who has a pretty big audience or not a big audience, whatever, and you follow them because you like the kinds of things they’re saying, or maybe you like one of their pictures because you like what they’re saying. And they immediately DM you, Hey, wanna get on a call? My like spidey sense for gross spam, like degeneracy, like sales, just like my skin tingles. I would wanna block them. That’s what I would… My intuition would be like, I feel so gross and manipulated about this. I want to… And I realize I’m more on the anti-sale side, but still as a consumer, my intuition is block. It’s not even knocking on the call. It’s like, I want nothing to do with this person.


0:27:05.7 Jordan Syatt: I’m gonna take my like away as well. Fuck that content.


0:27:09.0 Mike Vacanti: I’m gonna take all my likes away. And for people to promote this methodology who have never actually executed on it, who have never actually had an online fitness business, who maybe never coached anyone in person or did for a handful of months or whatever, but they’re teaching that as the correct strategy to build your online business is wild.


0:27:31.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it’s insane. It’s a… And I think you hit on a good point earlier on when you were talking about it, basically saying like, it’s such a short term strategy focus on… It’s the same thing as when people do short term strategies for fat loss. They try and do something super unsustainable, really fucking stupid, that will… Yeah, might lead to something very, very quickly, but long term, it’s gonna be absolutely horrible for your reputation. It’s gonna be horrible for your business, like even if it actually worked, which by the way, there’s no way this works large scale. It just doesn’t. But even if it did, is that your fucking business strategy? Like as soon as… Always just DMing people, like, oh, hey, do you want to… Is that your strategy? The goal is to get them to come to you, whether it’s through referrals or through your… I think referrals is the best way.


0:28:17.1 Mike Vacanti: SEO.


0:28:17.6 Jordan Syatt: SEO, referrals, whatever it is.


0:28:20.9 Mike Vacanti: Because referrals are driven by being a great coach.


0:28:23.0 Jordan Syatt: Correct, exactly.


0:28:24.9 Mike Vacanti: Plus time.


0:28:30.9 Jordan Syatt: It’s just ass backwards the way people have it. And then it’s this… Again, it’s so funny. Everyone wants this authentic genuine connection with their audience, but they’re doing the most inauthentic, least genuine things to try and manipulate them into signing up with them. It’s like the entire base of everything you do is inauthentic. So how in the hell do you think you’re gonna create an authentic relationship? Of course, your engagement sucks. Of course, people don’t care about what you’re saying because they can smell your bullshit through the screen. It’s like it’s not good.


0:29:00.5 Mike Vacanti: And you started making content in 2011. I started in late 2012, 2013 is when I launched my website officially. Like we’ve seen a lot of ebbs and flows and changes in trends and things that were in and then went out and came back in and… We’ve seen what holds and what works and stands the test of time.


0:29:28.5 Jordan Syatt: You know, it’s interesting on that topic, but going a slightly different direction now. I’ve really been examining content recently, and it’s so funny. When we were growing up in the industry, website articles really, that was the big thing. Website articles. Whether it was Eric Cressey’s website articles or Martin Berkhan’s or Lyle McDonald’s, but it was website articles. And there are many differences in today’s, we’ll call it Instagram world or TikTok world, than those days website articles, but there are some major similarities too. And for example, I know like one of Eric Cressey’s most famous style of infotainment blog articles would be five ways to do this, like five ways to improve your deadlifts or whatever it is. Just like three ways to do this, five ways to do this, 10 ways to do this. And he would do that all the time, and I think he still does that type of content.


0:30:31.1 Jordan Syatt: That type of content is, I think, as of right now, one of the best types of content to do, whether it’s in short form on Instagram, TikTok, or long form YouTube style, where it’s like 10 ways to do this, five ways to do this. And it’s funny because I’ve been watching people’s content who’s been doing very well. They’re doing that, it’s just they don’t go into as much nuance or detail or depth as you would in an article, but you still get a lot of the same key takeaways, right? So it’s like 10… We could have like a five ways to deadlift without hurting your back, right? Or something along those lines. And then it’s like, okay, so you’re gonna put your grip here, number one. Number two, you’re gonna pull the slack out. Number three, you’re gonna do this. And literally in the same way that Eric Cressey might have written an article about this with way more depth and nuance, you can do the exact same thing in a shorter form, Instagram, TikTok, or a longer form YouTube. It’s just a little bit less nuanced, which is arguably that’s where the major difference is. Is the less nuanced now than there was before, but it’s still the same exact information, same exact content, just packaged differently, which I think is very interesting.


0:31:47.6 Mike Vacanti: That’s cool that that strategy is still working, just tweaked a little bit based on the medium of consumption. Speaking of mediums of consumption, I have a weird hunch that the increase in popularity in creating short form content, whether it’s social media or even not even short form content, but what we’re doing, which is podcast plus clips, which is very, a very easy style of content to create, right? We sit down and have a conversation. A lot of people are doing it is gonna leave open white space in the long form article arena because writing is way harder than having a conversation for the majority of people and good good writing is especially hard which is why good writing in captions leads to success disproportionately on short form. I don’t wanna say anything too crazy, but…


0:32:53.6 Jordan Syatt: Say it. Say something crazy.


0:32:55.6 Mike Vacanti: I could see myself being like a blogger. Like a back…


0:33:01.4 Jordan Syatt: Shut up.


0:33:05.0 Mike Vacanti: Like writing long-form articles/emails. And there’s a lot of upside to this.


0:33:09.9 Jordan Syatt: Are you considering a comeback?


0:33:14.3 Mike Vacanti: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But considering, maybe. But let’s not get too excited.


0:33:18.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ll just leave it at that.


0:33:23.1 Mike Vacanti: I almost definitely won’t, but I might. And if I…


0:33:23.2 Jordan Syatt: Probably not.


0:33:28.9 Mike Vacanti: There are real benefits. Let’s leave me out of this, even though I got a little weird itch for it. There are so many benefits to the anonymity and ability to educate of email/website article compared to…


0:33:45.9 Jordan Syatt: Dude, I completely agree.


0:33:52.6 Mike Vacanti: So many people aspire when they get started in content, aspire toward being known. And we can call that fame or we can call that micro fame, for many different reasons, for ego, just because it’s mimetic desire, is that what it’s called? You see what other people want around you, and so you, by default, want that thing too. And fame is a thing that people want in society today.


0:34:17.5 Jordan Syatt: Mm-hmm.


0:34:22.5 Mike Vacanti: And you get that through being known publicly on social. And so people think they want that without knowing what comes with that. Well, similar to you talking about likes and followers being monopoly money, on the other side of that coin is not having that public attention, not being known. By having a popular website still leads to a very nice revenue stream. So you can build a great business and help a lot of people without, and maybe you have a small social media, so you’re still active there, but your main thing is being less known. It’s interesting, and because of the massive amount of supply around public facing content and the low supply now, relative to 5 to 10 years ago on websites, I think there’s an opportunity there to be had.


0:35:10.2 Jordan Syatt: Dude, I love that. I agree. That was actually one of the things I really learned from Pat Flynn when I started working with him in like 2014. I remember ’cause in like 2014, 2015, there was like this is a very different time in the fitness industry, especially in the science-based fitness industry. There was this like circle jerk of a small handful of people in the fitness industry who sort of they ran it all. Like they ran the industry. And they were… No one really knew what affiliate marketing was back then, especially consumers, they had no idea what it was. They didn’t know that if they were clicking a link that someone, the person who provided that link was gonna get compensated for that. They had no idea. It was relatively new and this small group of like 10 to 15 people were all affiliates for each other’s programs. And they would launch, they would have these huge launches and they would literally structure the year, so that like, all right, you launch in this month, I’ll launch in this month, and they would all co-promote each other’s products together.


0:36:27.8 Jordan Syatt: So not only would the person who made the product do well, but they would all do well. And in order to make it in the industry at this time, you had to befriend this group of people. You had to find your way in. And it just… And you saw people who didn’t fit into this group who like this group would attack them or members of this group would attack them or talk shit about them. And then immediately they would be ostracized from the industry. And I was just like, this is terrible. Like this is… I don’t wanna be in this circle jerk, I don’t want anything to do with it. And so that’s when I actually got in touch with Pat Flynn and Pat Flynn… I literally, my goal was I don’t want to depend on anybody in the industry.


0:37:12.5 Jordan Syatt: And Pat was, and still is absolutely dominating it without needing anybody to know who he is. Like he can walk around, no one knows who he is, like he goes to the grocery store, no one knows who he is. Meanwhile, on the backend, just absolutely killing it beyond most people’s wildest imagination and just sends an email out every day, and that’s it. And it was just like… And he’s got like five kids, he plays guitar, he studies the Bible. And he sends an email out and does coaching and just unbelievably balanced and absolutely dominating it without needing anybody to know who he is, which is, I think, the ultimate. That’s just the best. And so I think you’re right, there’s a huge desire, which I think is almost entirely ego-based for people to be known ’cause people want people to know that they’re known people like they have this. I want people to know me, I want people to know how smart I am, I want people to know how good I am, whatever it is. And…


0:38:22.6 Mike Vacanti: And it’s natural. I think it’s natural. It’s like, there was a period of time where I got stopped and recognized on a somewhat regular basis living in the city…


0:38:34.5 Jordan Syatt: I remember that. I saw it happen multiple times.


0:38:37.9 Mike Vacanti: And I really liked it when it would happen. Like I thought I was somebody. I was like this is…


0:38:38.7 Jordan Syatt: You are somebody.


0:38:43.2 Mike Vacanti: But everybody’s somebody whether that happens or not is what I learned afterwards, but at the time there was real ego in it, like oh, yeah, people know who I… There, that was going through my head.


0:38:52.1 Jordan Syatt: You said, yeah.


0:38:55.5 Mike Vacanti: And that was on such a micro scale, by the way, right? We’re talking like a few times a month, max. And so to get to a level where it’s consistent for people, there are safety concerns, there’s just the annoyance. There’s always having to be on. There’s a lot of like, especially for people who aren’t as extroverted, maybe don’t wanna be having a lot of conversations. Not to mention, the bigger you are, the more of a target you have on your back for every which reason for someone to try and attack you. The bigger audience, the more like riffraff that can be going on in comments and DMs that isn’t the worst thing in the world, but definitely is annoying, we’ll call it. There’s a lot of downside. And so an argument can be made for building on a medium where you’re less visually recognizable.


0:39:51.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, dude, for sure. There’s, it’s the ultimate, the grass is always greener, right? A lot of people, I wanna be famous, I wanna be known. Just look at the people who are super famous and their response to the paparazzi, to people who are always trying to get pictures of them. Like that’s the ultimate level of fame. And maybe you’re like, maybe I don’t want that much. Maybe I want something less. It’s like, is that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Number one, I mean, it’s funny. I remember there’s a famous video of Michael Jackson. He rented out a grocery store, and had actors come in and pretend to be regular shoppers so that he could go into a grocery store and shop just like a regular person.


0:40:35.6 Mike Vacanti: Just so he could feel it.


0:40:35.7 Jordan Syatt: And he wanted that experience just so he could feel what it was like to go through a grocery store. There’s a video of it. It’s amazing. He literally rented out a grocery store and paid actors to go in and pretend to shop so that he could go in without being bothered and just shop. And it’s like the things that you do on your day to day life and basis where you just… Take it for granted, and you’re looking at what someone else says, Oh man, it would be so great to have fame and to have someone else go grocery shopping for me. Someone else on the other side of that richer than anyone else is wishing they could be you in the grocery store shopping. And it’s funny. Like my dad was relatively well known. He had a very big radio show, he was on the radio from when he was 14 years old. And so at least in the Boston area, he was recognized a lot. And it was funny because anytime like teachers or whatever, they heard my last name, they’d be like, are you his son? And it like happened all the time.


0:41:36.1 Jordan Syatt: And I literally just thought about this. I haven’t thought about this in a long time. I went to a baseball camp, must’ve been like eight or nine years old. And one of the coaches at the baseball camp was like, are you his son? And I was like, yeah. And for no reason, I was like eight or nine. This coach goes, you know your dad was married before he was married to your mom. Which I did know it, they had told me that he had a previous marriage, but it’s almost like, so this guy knows that. And what if they hadn’t told me? What if they deliberately wanted to keep that private? This fucking random guy tells me something, and at the time I was like, yeah, of course I knew. Thinking back, I’m like, what a douchebag. Like, why would you say that?


0:42:18.7 Mike Vacanti: To a kid. Yeah.


0:42:20.1 Jordan Syatt: But things that you just can’t control will happen. It’s just… Yeah, it’s pretty wild. So, and I think…


0:42:28.0 Mike Vacanti: That is wild. I didn’t know that.


0:42:34.7 Jordan Syatt: That’s why I think chasing… Yeah, I mean, I haven’t thought about it in a long time. I still remember that guy’s face. I think I told my mom when I got in the car, I was like, yeah, this guy said that. My mom was like, why did he say that? I was like, I don’t know. He just said it. But that’s why I think the focus on fame or followers, that’s one reason why it’s just… It’s a losing battle. It will not make you happier, it will not do anything other than actually, I think probably increase your anxiety and maybe even take away the joy from what you’re doing. Whereas when the focus is on just helping people and being a good coach because you wanna be a great coach and you wanna help people, then you really can’t go wrong with that.


0:43:10.5 Mike Vacanti: Preaching, bro.


0:43:11.6 Jordan Syatt: Dude.


0:43:11.7 Mike Vacanti: Great episode.


0:43:13.1 Jordan Syatt: Super good episode.


0:43:15.0 Mike Vacanti: Oh, we have a sale coming up very soon for the mentorship. Very soon. So if you’re listening to this and you’re not on our email list, jump on the email list. You can do that down in the show notes ’cause we’re gonna make the announcement there. And also continue listening to the podcast because in the next couple of weeks, we’re gonna have the first sale we’ve had in 10 months. So we haven’t done a single sale for 10 months and it’s going to be pretty massive. We’re talking…


0:43:43.8 Jordan Syatt: So she said.


0:43:48.7 Mike Vacanti: Many hundreds… Many, many hundreds of dollars off. So if you’ve been thinking about joining.


0:43:48.8 Jordan Syatt: If you’re a high ticket coach.


0:43:58.3 Mike Vacanti: We don’t want you.


0:43:58.4 Jordan Syatt: Don’t join. We don’t want you in there.


0:44:00.1 Mike Vacanti: No.


0:44:01.2 Jordan Syatt: If you’re someone who wants to be a great coach, who helps people, hat’s who we want. If you’re looking for a high ticket, quick buck, get rich quick horse shit, DM rapid business growth nonsense, we don’t want you. Keep listening to the podcast. You need the podcast, honestly, like keep listening to us talk before you pay anything. Just keep listening.


0:44:27.6 Mike Vacanti: But if you’re looking to join the 72 hour water fast version of business coaching, don’t sign up. This isn’t for you.


0:44:35.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. If you’re looking to be famous and be known, don’t sign up.


0:44:42.5 Mike Vacanti: Not for you. Doesn’t make sense. You won’t like it, you’ll cancel quick.


0:44:47.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. If you’re looking for get rich quick, live in a mansion, tell people how rich and famous you are.


0:44:57.3 Mike Vacanti: Bling bling…


0:44:58.4 Jordan Syatt: Don’t sign up.


0:45:00.1 Mike Vacanti: Louis Vuitton shoes, $10,000 watches.


0:45:02.8 Jordan Syatt: No.


0:45:03.3 Mike Vacanti: There are other gurus out there.


0:45:08.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. What else? What else don’t we want in there? If you’re looking for something to be like, hey, I’m looking to take on three people who wanna lose fat in the next month, no, but you would actually take on as many as they are… Yeah, don’t fucking… We don’t want that.


0:45:27.7 Mike Vacanti: If you’re looking to just blatantly lie in your marketing material to grow your business and have no values or ethics or morals, not for you.


0:45:34.1 Jordan Syatt: Don’t sign up.


0:45:34.3 Mike Vacanti: Not the place to be. You won’t like it, just save us all the headache.


0:45:41.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yep. Yep. If you want to be a part of an amazing community of kind, encouraging, passionate coaches who really want to help people and yes, you want to increase your income so you can support yourself, support your family, you can give to charity. That’s all great. But if you wanna be a better coach, you wanna be a great coach, you wanna help people because this is what you’re passionate about, make sure you’re on our email list. Get on the email list. The link is in the show notes because we’re going to let you know when we’re having this massive, massive sale, hundreds of dollars off to join the mentorship.


0:46:22.8 Mike Vacanti: You know what? If you made it to the very end of this episode, and if you’re still listening right now and you’re thinking about joining, go ahead and shoot an application over. So you can still jump on the email list, but go to, click apply, fill out the application, answer the questions and say you’re interested in joining for the sale and that’ll hold a spot for you. So you can go ahead and do that. Sales coming officially very, very soon. Thank you for listening.


0:46:49.2 Jordan Syatt: Officially very soon.


0:46:49.9 Mike Vacanti: Officially coming very soon. Have a great week. Let’s get it. Weekly episodes, Tuesday morning. Have a great day. We’ll see you soon.


0:47:00.1 Jordan Syatt: See you.

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