Episode 243: The Future of Social Media, Optimizing Your IG Bio, How Much $$$ Should Assistant Coaches Be Paid, and More…

0:00:11.7 Mike Vacanti: Hello, Jordan.

0:00:12.3 Jordan Syatt: What’s up, Michael?

0:00:13.2 Mike Vacanti: The weights were flying today.

0:00:15.1 Jordan Syatt: Oh, that’s good.

0:00:16.1 Mike Vacanti: Flying.

0:00:17.0 Jordan Syatt: You didn’t have that much time in the gym either, so that’s good.

0:00:19.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I got almost an hour left, which was perfect.

0:00:25.8 Jordan Syatt: Upper, lower?

0:00:27.6 Mike Vacanti: Lower. 

0:00:27.6 Jordan Syatt: Let’s go.

0:00:28.1 Mike Vacanti: Everything felt light, you know.

0:00:30.5 Jordan Syatt: Love that. Do you have pre workout?

0:00:31.6 Mike Vacanti: I did. 200mgs. 

0:00:33.9 Jordan Syatt: Just caffeine?

0:00:35.3 Mike Vacanti: As opposed to…

0:00:36.4 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know if you had extra stuff in there. Beet juice. I don’t know if you had..

0:00:39.1 Mike Vacanti: Coconut water actually.

0:00:42.7 Jordan Syatt: Oh, wow. Nice.

0:00:44.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah. Get some intra carbohydrates that I definitely don’t need for a one hour workout. But that taste delicious.

0:00:49.9 Jordan Syatt: And happy to use. Don’t need them, but happy to use them.

0:00:54.7 Mike Vacanti: Happy to use them. That’s right.

0:00:56.7 Jordan Syatt: Good, man.

0:00:57.4 Mike Vacanti: It’s actually like an underrated periodization strategy which is like a long term, not super competitive athlete. When you feel good and the weights feel light, just keep adding more weight. And when it’s an absolute grind of a day, just get something in. 

0:01:17.2 Jordan Syatt: Bro, 100%. What’s that? What’s like the annoying fancy term that people say that… Call that? It’s…

0:01:22.6 Mike Vacanti: I try and rid my mind of annoying fancy terms. Ever since last week when you said…

0:01:28.8 Jordan Syatt: Biofeedback, that’s what people say. Biofeedback. Okay, so you’re just listening to your body. Got it.

0:01:34.4 Mike Vacanti: I was just listening. I didn’t even really have to listen. My body was screaming at me like, this is easy. 

0:01:39.6 Jordan Syatt: Did you do Bulgarians?

0:01:41.1 Mike Vacanti: Reverse lunge.

0:01:41.8 Jordan Syatt: Nice.

0:01:42.3 Mike Vacanti: Some RDLS, did some side standing cable lateral abduction.

0:01:50.9 Jordan Syatt: What? So you could get a bigger range rather than just being lying on the ground?

0:01:54.3 Mike Vacanti: Just variety. The new gym I’m at has different kettlebells that don’t fit on my foot as well. 

0:01:59.7 Jordan Syatt: Oh, got it.

0:02:01.6 Mike Vacanti: But yes, you get a little bit more stretch with the cable depending on how you set up. The leg extension machine isn’t great. There’s not a huge stretch and that’s one where I actually do like a big stretch. So it was a good workout though.

0:02:16.5 Jordan Syatt: Good. I like that, dude. That’s awesome.

0:02:18.8 Mike Vacanti: How you doing, brother?

0:02:19.8 Jordan Syatt: Bro, I’m great. I’m great. Three year old birthday party this weekend. It was fun. Minnie Mouse came.

0:02:27.7 Mike Vacanti: Let’s go.

0:02:28.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, Minnie Mouse was here and she didn’t say anything. She was like in the big costume. So she would do like the put her hands in front of her mouth, like doing the laughy thing. She didn’t… There was no talking.

0:02:44.3 Mike Vacanti: I think that’s standard for characters.

0:02:46.9 Jordan Syatt: I was thinking I should do Minnie Mouse. But then I was like, if I’m Minnie Mouse, then I’m gonna have to be like interacting with all. There were a lot of kids and you gotta interact with everyone. And I want to be watching my daughter. And then so we were like, all right, we’ll get someone to be Minnie Mouse. But I wanted… I was expecting, or hoping maybe just ignorantly for some verbal interaction. I was like, hey, Minnie. And she was just like waving at me. I was like, talk to me. What’s going on?

0:03:17.2 Mike Vacanti: You need consistency, right? What happens then two years later you’re at Disney and Minnie Mouse sounds completely different than Minnie Mouse. I think it’s standard for those types of dress up characters not to communicate. Totally.

0:03:30.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Probably also just muffled voice underneath that big head so as…

0:03:36.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, that too.

0:03:37.5 Jordan Syatt: You have some type of a microphone or something and that would just be difficult. And, yeah.

0:03:39.8 Mike Vacanti: You were disappointed though. You’re like, come on, Minnie, say something?

0:03:43.2 Jordan Syatt: I was hoping for a conversation. I was hoping for like but that didn’t happen.

0:03:48.6 Mike Vacanti: Jordan the extrovert.

0:03:50.6 Jordan Syatt: It was funny. It was like all girls except like a couple of boys. And there’s our really good friend. Our really good friend. They have a boy. And he was petrified of Minnie. And then when she started leaving, he like got up and clenched his fist like he was ready to… He was like, he’s three. So he was like ready to fight. He’s like, yeah, yeah, leave, leave, leave. She’s like… He did not want to go anywhere near her at all. And the family was like, well, it’s a good thing we didn’t waste money on Disney yet.

0:04:22.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, right.

0:04:24.4 Jordan Syatt: That’d be a very expensive vacation for not having fun.

0:04:28.1 Mike Vacanti: No character interaction. Yeah.

0:04:30.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:04:31.5 Mike Vacanti: Good man. I’m glad the birthday party was a success.

0:04:35.5 Jordan Syatt: Great success. You ever see Borat?

0:04:38.5 Mike Vacanti: I never got into Borat.

0:04:39.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, that makes sense. It’s not your humor.

0:04:42.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I don’t think it is.

0:04:43.4 Jordan Syatt: Did you start Downfall yet?

0:04:44.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I told you, I watched the first five minutes and it’s not in English and so it’s on the extra back burner. But I did see it in high school.

0:04:51.9 Jordan Syatt: That makes sense. I forgot. You’ve been changing floorboards out.

0:04:55.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, baseboard. The trim in the bathroom.

0:04:59.2 Jordan Syatt: I called you yesterday, I was like, what’s up? You’re like, changing the baseboards, buddy. Call me later. 

0:05:08.6 Mike Vacanti: That’s right, that’s right. Well, you had a big window in the morning where I could have given you some extrovert points. But you missed it.

0:05:13.2 Jordan Syatt: I was driving my daughter to school. To drop her off.

0:05:15.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, well, no, you called me while you were driving her, and I missed it. And then I called you back maybe eight minutes later, and you were like, I gotta run her inside right now. I’ll call you right back.

0:05:26.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:05:27.2 Mike Vacanti: And then a half hour passed. I was like, all right, I gotta get after my day here. I’m done waiting around for this phone call where I know you have nothing actionable at all for me. Just, what’s up? What are you doing? Hey, how are you? And then I waited another 15 minutes. You didn’t reply to that. And I was like, all right, I’m getting after it.

0:05:43.4 Jordan Syatt: Smart.

0:05:44.5 Mike Vacanti: And then you called, and I didn’t even see it because I was getting after it, and then you called again a couple hours later, and that’s when I answered, and I had a saw, I had some PVC, baseboard, I had glue…

0:05:58.7 Jordan Syatt: Caulk.

0:05:59.7 Mike Vacanti: A caulk gun. 

0:06:01.8 Jordan Syatt: Caulking it.

0:06:00.3 Mike Vacanti: Jordan’s making an extra effort to pronounce the L in caulk, even though I’m pretty sure it’s caulk, because he doesn’t want people to think he’s talking about a penis.

0:06:12.8 Jordan Syatt: I think it is caulk. I don’t think it’s caulk.

0:06:16.4 Mike Vacanti: You and I pronounce words differently. 

0:06:20.0 Jordan Syatt: I’ve got my caulk here.

0:06:21.0 Mike Vacanti: We’ve come to know here on the show. Here we go. C-A-U-L-K. How to pronounce caulk? Are you ready for this, David? If you could roll the audio of the Google pronunciation here. I’m going to hit it, and you might have to splice this in, but..

0:06:38.1 S?: Caulk.

0:06:38.8 Mike Vacanti: All right, so it’s pronounced caulk. That’s how it’s pronounced. K-A-A-K is the phonetical spelling of…

0:06:45.4 Jordan Syatt: Really?

0:06:46.8 Mike Vacanti: Yes.

0:06:47.2 Jordan Syatt: Oh, wow. I always thought it was caulk.

0:06:49.0 Mike Vacanti: I know.

0:06:49.6 Jordan Syatt: All right. I was wrong. It’s caulk. Mike’s got his caulk gun.

0:06:54.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, so the baseboard looks…

0:06:58.0 Jordan Syatt: Premier.

0:06:58.1 Mike Vacanti: I mean, serviceable. Yeah.

0:06:59.2 Jordan Syatt: It’s premier. 

0:07:02.3 Mike Vacanti: I’m over a week, no Instagram on my phone, very minimal Twitter usage. I feel like a fundamentally different person. And…

0:07:10.4 Jordan Syatt: And you took your chess app off, too, which is annoying.

0:07:13.7 Mike Vacanti: I have an issue with my brain and a lot of things. And the chess app, like video games, are super dopaminergic, and I can’t…

0:07:23.3 Jordan Syatt: No, but chess is not super dopaminergic.

0:07:26.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, chess isn’t like cocaine, but chess is a video game. And depending on… Look, N equals one, I can only speak for myself. I will unconsciously go to chess like I do social media, and I will just play games over and over again when I should be doing something, like responsibilities I have in my life.

0:07:48.5 Jordan Syatt: Caulking. 

0:07:49.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:07:49.0 Jordan Syatt: Okay, well, good. So no Twitter, no Instagram, no social media. You feel better.

0:07:54.3 Mike Vacanti: My prefrontal cortex is slowly coming back online. I’m pretty pleased about it.

0:07:59.4 Jordan Syatt: Good. That’s amazing.

0:08:00.5 Mike Vacanti: It is. How’s your no scrolling going?

0:08:02.4 Jordan Syatt: It’s pretty good. It’s not perfect, but it’s way less, way less doomsday when you’re not scrolling all the time.

0:08:14.1 Mike Vacanti: You’re like a modern-day Aristotle.

0:08:16.2 Jordan Syatt: No, you are.

0:08:17.5 Mike Vacanti: I’m not. Aristotle’s…

0:08:18.7 Jordan Syatt: You’re removing chess from your phone so you can…

0:08:20.9 Mike Vacanti: It upsets me when Jordan says things that aren’t true. Aristotle is known for the golden mean, which is like a moderation, essentially. Moderation isn’t something that I can partake in, hence deleting all these things from my phone and being very all or nothing. You can… How’s scrolling going? You didn’t say I’m not scrolling at all, or you didn’t say I’m scrolling constantly. You said I’m scrolling much less than I was, and I feel good about it. You’re a modern-day Aristotle.

0:08:46.4 Jordan Syatt: Well, when you put it that way, I appreciate it.

0:08:49.0 Mike Vacanti: I wonder if that’s a skill or how much we, as individuals, have a proclivity toward, like…

0:08:57.8 Jordan Syatt: Genetically? Just like… 

0:09:00.1 Mike Vacanti: Nature or nurture, but just how we got to the point where we’re at if… I mean, I guess it’s obvious that some brains are more easily addicted to certain things than others.

0:09:13.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Do you think this is for life, just never getting back on the scroll?

0:09:20.1 Mike Vacanti: I think it’s unlikely that I go the rest of my life if history rhymes or whatever that saying is, but I’m going to make a real effort to get my prefrontal cortex dialed back in and in charge of this operation.

0:09:35.2 Jordan Syatt: So in addition to no scrolling, no social media, what else are you doing?

0:09:39.5 Mike Vacanti: I’m trying to read a book.

0:09:41.2 Jordan Syatt: Okay.

0:09:41.7 Mike Vacanti: I’m rereading The Willpower Instinct.

0:09:43.8 Jordan Syatt: Oh, nice. You love that book.

0:09:47.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I’ve only… I think I’ve read it twice. Once was almost 10 years ago, and then once was a year or two ago. We were talking about it. There’s a lot of really good concepts as it relates to pleasure-seeking and willpower. Mindfulness meditation is something that I’m going to try and add back in, in addition to not scrolling. So we’ll see.

0:10:12.4 Jordan Syatt: When would you do your mindfulness… Like when you wake up, random in the middle of the day?

0:10:16.5 Mike Vacanti: Don’t motivational interview me into…

0:10:18.8 Jordan Syatt: I’m curious. I don’t care if you meditate or not. It doesn’t bother me. I’m just curious.

0:10:26.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, probably first thing in the morning.

0:10:28.5 Jordan Syatt: It’s funny you thought I was trying to motivational… I just wanted to know.

0:10:31.3 Mike Vacanti: I know you were.

0:10:32.7 Jordan Syatt: I wasn’t. I just want to know when you’re meditating. I was just trying to figure out the schedule.

0:10:38.2 Mike Vacanti: You’re such a motivational interviewer that you don’t even know when you’re doing it.

0:10:42.2 Jordan Syatt: No. Oh, trust me. I know when I’m doing it.

0:10:49.9 Mike Vacanti: Have you done any of your one-minute mindfulness meditations?

0:10:53.4 Jordan Syatt: No. Not in probably a year.

0:10:56.5 Mike Vacanti: Okay. I’d take the under on that, but…

0:10:58.5 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know when I was doing it. I feel like it was soon after my second daughter was born. Maybe I’m wrong.

0:11:05.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Might be pushing a year. Well, I’m glad your no-scrolling is going well. 

0:11:11.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah, man. 

0:11:13.3 Mike Vacanti: That’s great.

0:11:13.3 Jordan Syatt: How are the Vikings?

0:11:15.0 Mike Vacanti: Very injured. Very injured. Two and two.

0:11:17.7 Jordan Syatt: That sucks.

0:11:18.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:11:18.8 Jordan Syatt: Okay.

0:11:19.7 Mike Vacanti: I’m making an effort to become more of a casual fan, consciously. I think that’s another area of pleasure-pain seesaw, as funny as that is, people who are very into sports teams.

0:11:36.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it’s another addiction, right? Another almost like gambling, I bet.

0:11:42.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely less dangerous and probably less dopaminergic, but yeah, I think so.

0:11:52.1 Jordan Syatt: I see videos of dudes who are watching their team lose or something, and they smash their TV.

0:11:58.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:11:58.9 Jordan Syatt: I’m like, oh, my gosh, bro. That’s crazy.

0:12:02.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I thankfully have never been on that level, but yeah, it’s definitely, you know what? I’m going to add that to the dopamine list, which is still coming our way.

0:12:14.9 Jordan Syatt: But you’re not going to stop watching the Vikings. 

0:12:16.8 Mike Vacanti: No, I’m just going to be casual. 

0:12:19.6 Jordan Syatt: Casual Vikings fan. Yeah.

0:12:19.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Do you ever take no-caffeine days for desensitization?

0:12:30.8 Jordan Syatt: You know the answer to this.

0:12:32.1 Mike Vacanti: No, I don’t.

0:12:32.9 Jordan Syatt: The only time I took time off of caffeine is because of my blood pressure. That was the only time, and Baruch Hashem, my blood pressure has been fucking great. 

0:12:43.4 Mike Vacanti: That’s awesome. 

0:12:44.4 Jordan Syatt: No, I’ve been… I don’t know the last day that I haven’t had caffeine.

0:12:50.4 Mike Vacanti: Let’s go.

0:12:51.0 Jordan Syatt: I also don’t really feel it, so that’s not good.

0:12:54.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, you also don’t drink that much.

0:12:56.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I have a couple sips of coffee, and then I’m like, all right.

0:12:59.2 Mike Vacanti: Well, that one didn’t go anywhere. I got a real thought here that is… Hey, good talking point, Mike. Thanks. I have identified a problem in the fitness industry.

0:13:17.1 Jordan Syatt: Oh, please. I can’t wait to hear this one.

0:13:19.6 Mike Vacanti: So, I don’t have a horse in this race. I’m just going to speak objectively about something I’m noticing.

0:13:27.4 Jordan Syatt: You’ve got a horse… You’re in the industry. You’ve got a big horse in this race.

0:13:30.4 Mike Vacanti: Nope, no horse. This doesn’t affect me, but it’s something I’m seeing. There seems to be an abundance of good coaches who want to work with more clients and help more people and are genuinely in it for the right reasons. They’re not trying to make six figures in six days. They’re not trying to be high-ticket closers. They actually want to help people with their health and fitness. Like an abundance of these coaches.

0:14:07.3 Jordan Syatt: They’re all in the mentorship.

0:14:10.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I mean, tons in the mentorship who are in it for the right reasons, basically everyone. Which makes sense, given what we talk about here. On the flip side, there is… So, the Pareto’s principle, the 80-20 rule, 80% of results come to 20% of individuals. It applies to many different things. You can also think of the power law, which is… What is it, like 10% of any given population does 50% of… If you think of a corporate workplace, 10% of the employees are doing 50% of the work. That’s the power law. Online, there is asymmetric upside in posting. So, the majority of views are going to a small percentage of individuals. It’s almost like a hockey stick graph. It’s not linear in terms of how many views different people are getting. And for coaches in the fitness industry who run coaching businesses, there are many who have massive audiences to the point where they don’t even coach themselves anymore or don’t offer any kind of service that they’re actively involved in. Their sole job is content creator. Like fitness, content creator, get more eyeballs so I can sell coaching services. Many of these coaches now… Like it used to be a 50-50 split with people who had assistant coaches, but over the last five to seven years, I guess, the average split between the person who signed the client and the assistant coach has gone way in favor of the person who’s creating content to the point where some of these assistant coaches are making less than 10% of what that client is actually paying. Am I explaining this clearly?

0:16:21.3 Jordan Syatt: I mean, I’m understanding it.

0:16:22.5 Mike Vacanti: You’re following? Okay.

0:16:23.5 Jordan Syatt: And if I’m understanding it, then I think anybody would. You bring percentages and math into it.

0:16:31.6 Mike Vacanti: So what is happening is… And I don’t think it’s good or bad. Like this is a free market, so it just is what it is.

0:16:39.5 Jordan Syatt: No, I think it’s objectively bad. It’s like objectively unethical.

0:16:43.7 Mike Vacanti: I don’t think it’s objectively unethical. I think it is too bad. I wish it was different. But it’s hard. I don’t see the argument for being objectively unethical when it is a free market.

0:16:59.3 Jordan Syatt: Well, I think it’s two different conversations. It’s like it’s a free market, so you have the freedom to do it. But I still don’t think that it’s right.

0:17:07.4 Mike Vacanti: I’m going to try and finish. I’m going to try and land the point here.

0:17:09.4 Jordan Syatt: Sorry. Keep going.

0:17:10.7 Mike Vacanti: No, you’re good. You’re good. So basically, the skill set that is more in demand isn’t being a good coach to help people with their fitness goals. The skill set that is more in demand is being good at social media and reaching more people and selling to those people. And then obviously, that ends up with a disproportionate reward given that the free market leads to assistant coaches taking in less than 10% and the person who’s making the content taking 90%, etcetera. I don’t really know what this means. I just in my gut, it’s like, I wish that the… I wish it was easier for consumers of fitness content to find high quality coaches who want to help them rather than them seeing more content from people with hundreds of thousands or millions of followers wanting to work with them or their team or whatever and then ending up with a great assistant coach but who is severely underpaid.

0:18:25.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think from what I’ve heard, and I’ve spoken with coaches who are assistant coaches on teams like this and they’re getting paid like 10%. And I’ve even heard of these coaches who like the owner of the business doesn’t let them know how much they’re making like relatively percentage wise. They aren’t allowed to know how much the client is paying. And from what I’ve heard, or from what I’ve seen, a lot of these like the person with the big audience, what they’ve done is they’ve often hired out a sales team. And so it sounds like the person who is doing the content is making like 90% and the coach is making 10%. But it’s actually more like the person making the content now has a sales team and they’re making like 40%. And so that they… It will be the sales team who gets on tries to convert that lead into a paying client. And then the business owner will prioritize the sales team. So the business owner will give the sales team like 40% of whatever the sale is. And then 40% or like, I guess, about 50% will then go to the person who’s making the content and then 10% will go to the coach, which in my opinion, I think it’s objectively wrong.

0:19:52.7 Jordan Syatt: Or what I will say is, I don’t think that someone who’s being honest can say, I value the quality of my coaches more than I do money, but then then do that. That to me doesn’t make sense. Because the idea of the sales team getting 40% you taking 50% and then the coach who’s actually doing the work, the coach who’s actually spent their time and money to educate themselves to continue to learn continuing education to devote so much time and effort to the clients paying them 10% to me or 10, 15% whatever it just it just doesn’t make sense. And I get… I agree like free market like great you can do whatever. What I would say is those coaches, I wish that they knew that if they went out on their own and and started and improve the quality of their content and were unbelievably consistent with it, then they could make way more money, what they’re actually worth per client and not depend on some boss underpaying them significantly. That if we’re looking at the free market, that’s what I wish like they were more aware of. Granted, there is also the side like great now they don’t have to worry about taking on clients. They don’t have to worry like they just… They get fed them. But even just the idea that they don’t have to worry about it as a misnomer because they only don’t have to worry about it as long as the other person making the content is still doing a good job and getting new clients and able to feed them to them. So it’s like false security. It’s not real. But I think, yeah, for me, I do struggle with that. Because I don’t think you can legitimately say, yeah, I really value my coaches and then underpay them so radically. It’s like, because clearly you don’t value them as much as you say you do.

0:21:52.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah. The like paying a salesperson 4x what the coach is getting does seem absurd. But my mind just goes to like, wow, is that sales job 4x more difficult? Are there 4x less people interested in that job? It’s is there a bigger gap between good salespeople and bad salespeople between compared to good coaches and bad coaches? I don’t know. But what you say, one of the points you made was you wish those coaches knew that they could start making better content themselves, get their own clients and get 100% of the revenue from those clients, which yeah, I hope that all coaches in those positions know that they can do that. I think many of them do know they can do that, but don’t want to make content. 

0:22:50.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. 

0:22:51.0 Mike Vacanti: Don’t want to be online. Didn’t get into this industry because they wanted to get… And now granted, you kind of have to. To build an online business. Or if you don’t want to… Because you can be an assistant coach working with a ton of clients. And if you’re only getting 10% of the revenue, you’re not making very much money and you have a full client roster. You’re working a full-time job just coaching. So it’s like you kind of got to… What? Like eat your vegetables would be the analogy here in terms of make content every single day. But I very much empathize with the coach who’s like, I don’t want to make content. I don’t want to be spending time on my phone. I want to… And this is… Honestly, for people who are on the extreme end of that, I think in-person coaching is a great option because you can make a really nice living coaching clients in person and you don’t have to make nearly as much content, if any.

0:23:50.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah, I get it. I mean, I wonder like if I started 10 or 12 years later. Like if timeline is different. I have no idea what I would do. I don’t know if I would still grind and like, all right, let’s just make as much content as possible. I have no idea. I don’t even think… I think about what life would have been like if I didn’t move from Israel and didn’t coach Gary because that’s the only reason I started posting so much is because Gary was like, you need to post three times a day every day. I don’t think under any other circumstance I would have done what I did if it wasn’t for Gary being like post three times a day every day.

0:24:31.1 Jordan Syatt: And I think I would have been looking at these other coaches with big audiences and being like, they suck. Dah, dah, dah.

0:24:37.7 Mike Vacanti: There is a lot of that. A lot of jealousy.

0:24:37.6 Jordan Syatt: Why do they have a huge audience? Yeah, it would have been like that’s stupid, like horrible content. And doing my own thing. I had a very successful one-on-one coaching business at that point. But like in terms of… And I actually did have the inner circle as well. But to get to where I am now, I don’t think I would have gotten there if I didn’t have that specific opportunity of, hey, post way more often. Way more frequently and do it nonstop for years.

0:25:07.0 Mike Vacanti: It’s interesting. It’s an interesting, I don’t know, thing to think about. Just the how much the market values good content creation compared to how much it values good coaching. And I don’t know if the churn rates are higher in these businesses where assistant coaches are underpaid and overworked, whatever. Who knows? I would imagine churn is higher because so much of one-on-one coaching is a personal relationship when the person you’re working with isn’t the person who you’ve consumed their content. I don’t know.

0:25:52.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I don’t know either. What I would just… My heart is just talking to the coaches who are struggling and they’re not sure what to do. It’s like, listen, if you need to take a lower percentage for the time being, do it. That’s totally fine. But also in the meantime, use your free time, whatever you can wrangle up, whatever you can scrape together and make content because it can… Even if you don’t want to do it, and it’s the eating your vegetables, if you don’t want to do it, it can give you so much freedom and eventually to you getting paid what you’re worth on your own scale, when you decide, how you decide, rather than depending on someone else. Or maybe try and seek out a business owner who will pay you what you’re worth, which might be difficult. That’s also challenging because then maybe you don’t want to make content, but you also don’t want to be reaching out and applying to new jobs and trying to find someone and starting all over again. There’s a whole host of issues. But the one thing that you absolutely can control, I mean, you got a phone, you got social media, you can make content. You can. It’s the lowest barrier to entry and it’s 100% controlled by you.

0:27:10.4 Mike Vacanti: And it doesn’t have to be forever.

0:27:11.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:27:12.4 Mike Vacanti: If you think about a five-year window of absolutely grinding your face off, that can set a foundation to make your business run much more smoothly and efficiently in the future. It can also lead to you potentially still making content beyond a five-year window, but just less and on platforms that you enjoy more.

0:27:37.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Reposting old content or repurposing old content. And then it’s the same thing with fitness where it’s like a lot of people don’t… I don’t want to work out, I don’t like working out, but then they do it for two years, they see the progress, and all of a sudden they like it. And maybe after doing content for a while, you begin to enjoy it. The other aspect is the opportunities that come from it. Now, I don’t just mean income. I just mean you could then have a platform to speak about other things that you really care about, to lead into other jobs that you never would have thought of. The things that come from getting yourself out there and building your own personal brand is what it is, which is what Gary spoke about all the time. When you can build your own personal brand and you can create an audience of people who will listen to you, your options are essentially infinite. And your options are infinite from the beginning. But once you’ve laid that foundation and built an audience of people who trust you because you’re trustworthy and who listen to you, you can do anything you want with it, which is just such a blessing. And you don’t feel like you’re in this box. You don’t feel like you’re trapped, I can only do this one thing. It’d be like, if you could only train with dumbbells or if you could go in a gym and train with literally every piece of equipment that you want. Once you’re in the gym with all that equipment, you can use any equipment that you want. Once you have the audience, you can talk about anything that you want and make a real impact.

0:29:08.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, that’s an upside for sure. And being able to choose the platform you make content on and make it where you enjoy it most is also something that I think is under-discussed. You don’t have to be posting on Instagram for 20 straight years if you absolutely hate Instagram.

0:29:29.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I just wonder what’s going to happen. We’ve seen over the last… Since AI really became more popularized, we’ve seen Google just drop. Way fewer people are using Google. I know they’re doing a pretty good job of introducing their AI models. Now they have AI responses immediately, but it’ll be very interesting to see how something like Instagram, Facebook, etcetera. Changes over the next three, five, 12 years as new things come out. Because people do migrate, they do shift, they change. It would need to be a real powerhouse, but I think it’s doable. I think it would be ignorant to just assume Instagram will be… Instagram, TikTok, YouTube will be the things forever. Something else will come.

0:30:14.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Follow that attention. The Google thing is interesting because I’m seeing more and more that it’s really just chatbots that have replaced Google on the SEO front. So much of… We’re getting a pretty steady flow of applications for the mentorship from people who found us, who haven’t listened to a single podcast episode, but it’s either Grok or ChatGPT or Perplexity said that we could help them with their personal training business.

0:30:52.6 Jordan Syatt: I don’t mean the SEO side of it. I mean, Google has been the number one search engine since the internet. And now people are using Google less. 

0:31:02.1 Mike Vacanti: And now it’s not.

0:31:02.0 Jordan Syatt: Now it’s like people… Now they’re using AI chatbots. Now they’re using these things. It’s like, at what, five years ago, three years ago, if you said, yeah, people won’t use Google as much, you’d be like, what in the hell is going to replace Google? 

0:31:15.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. 

0:31:15.4 Jordan Syatt: It’s the same thing I think will happen with social media at some point. There will be something new that happens, tech will change. I’m interested to see what’s going to happen with something like holograms. And it’s not just going to be on the screen anymore, but you’ll actually have almost like in Star Wars where it’s like you have holograms in front of you. I don’t know. I have no idea. But I think we will see a shift eventually, whenever that is. And Instagram does a good job of it is they’re always changing. They’re adding more. They’re constantly trying to stay very relevant within their user base. So maybe who knows, maybe they will own everything. And I mean, they’ve already…

0:31:59.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, keep buying stuff.

0:32:00.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, keep buying everything that comes up.

0:32:01.4 Mike Vacanti: I mean, Instagram, WhasApp. 

0:32:03.3 Jordan Syatt: I remember when… I’ll never forget this. I remember when Instagram offered to buy Snapchat for, I think it was hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars.

0:32:12.2 Mike Vacanti: Like three billion.

0:32:13.6 Jordan Syatt: And then Snapchat was like, no, fuck you. And then Instagram was like, okay. And they just made stories. And then overnight, Snapchat was gone.

0:32:21.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, definitely became less popular.

0:32:24.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, immediately.

0:32:25.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s just an argument for anyone making content consistently trying to grow their business of diversifying platforms. If you have a huge TikTok or if you have a huge Instagram, but you’re not focused on your email list, you’re not making any long form content, like those are things you should be doing to hedge against the risk that Jordan describes, which is these short form platforms might not be what they are forever or as popular as they are forever. So build net email list, making long form content. We don’t need to get into the AI stuff, but I’m more and more like maybe it’ll be a divide between the techno optimists and the pessimists, meaning people who lean in fully and have holograms around them 24/7 and have the contacts in and have just like dopamine spiking 24/7, 365, and they’re looking around and they’re like seeing people who aren’t there. And I don’t know. Gary talks about this a lot, which is contacts that just you can be interacting with constantly versus the growing trend of social media is obviously horrible for mental health. I want to be on it less. Businesses and people who are creating, it makes a ton of sense that you’re going to lean into whatever the newest technology is, wherever the attention is. But for the individual consumer who’s just like scrolling away their gray matter, like if you’re doing that for five hours a day, do you really need to be doing that for 18 hours a day with contacts? I don’t know. I would be shocked if there’s not a huge, and maybe this is already happening, but a huge… Like kids always do the opposite of what their parents were into. Just like a real reversion to tradition and…

0:34:21.7 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think what a lot of kids are gonna do is they’re gonna see their parents not paying attention to them and just scrolling on their phone all the time and the kids are gonna feel really disappointed and left out and not valued. And so when they become parents and as they get older, they’re gonna be like, I’m not doing that. I know how horrible it felt to feel like I wasn’t being paid attention to, to feel like I wasn’t being listened to. I was never being looked at in the eyes when I was being spoken to. So I would imagine that will be a huge thing is that kids will make a concerted effort to not have their face in their phone all the time because they know how bad it feels when you’re just not being paid attention to and you’re all sitting around a table and everyone’s on their screen.

0:35:10.1 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, that’s a great point. That’s a really good point. I hadn’t even thought of that. On the other side, I wonder if the technologies just get so good that at a population level, we become like rats hooked on cocaine who just can’t even fight the… It becomes too all-encompassing, too enjoyable, too pleasurable, too easy, too addictive that we can’t fight it, essentially. 

0:35:42.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it’s real. I think it’s why the environment you’re brought up in matters so much. I don’t know. I have no idea. If the environment you’re in is just one where everyone is always on their phone and that’s all you see versus the environment you’re in where it’s like, hey, everyone puts their phone here in this box. We’re not on it at dinner. This is what we value. I think that will help.

0:36:05.9 Mike Vacanti: That makes sense. I agree with that. But we didn’t grow up with this technology and we’re in it constantly.

0:36:14.7 Jordan Syatt: Well, yeah. That’s the interesting aspect of it is we’re the only generation to have experienced both. We knew life before social media and we were young enough when it was first introduced or we sort of got it as we were growing up. So it’s like we knew what it was like before, but we also have really experienced. I shouldn’t say we’re the only generation, but we’re the youngest generation to have experienced both. It’ll be interesting to see as the kids who are born, like when our kids are born, see how they handle it. And also because it’s a huge part of school. Tech is such a huge part of schooling and it’s essential. The way that my three-year-old knows how to manipulate an iPad is insane.

0:37:08.4 Mike Vacanti: Oh, yeah?

0:37:09.1 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah. She understands it completely. It’s really wild.

0:37:13.2 Mike Vacanti: Because of school?

0:37:14.1 Jordan Syatt: No, just because we let her have some quiet time with the iPad or sometimes if we’re driving, we’ll let her use it. And the speed and rate at which she learns how to do it is crazy.

0:37:26.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, that makes sense. Malleable brain.

0:37:29.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it’s unbelievable.

0:37:33.9 Mike Vacanti: When you say that it’s so immersed in school, I didn’t know that.

0:37:41.2 Jordan Syatt: Well, I mean, obviously my kids are very young and it’s easier to say this than do it. 

0:37:49.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I’m thinking like older, yeah. 

0:37:50.1 Jordan Syatt: But we have spoken many times, my wife and I, about how they will not be allowed to have social media probably until at the earliest 16. But I know there are many parents who let their kids just free access to the internet. And we hear horror stories all the time, at least I do, of like 12-year-old girl was chatting with this 35-year-old guy on this thing and the parents didn’t know about it. And then he takes her to Ohio and just all this crazy shit. And if all of your friends are doing it or if you have a number of friends who have free access to it and you go over to your friend’s house or you’re just at school and like, hey, let’s look at this, dah, dah, dah, then the kids are gonna try and figure out a way to do it. It’s just, it’s part of culture. It’s part of that… Yeah. 

0:38:40.3 Mike Vacanti: I see.

0:38:42.4 Jordan Syatt: It’s not like the classroom.

0:38:42.4 Mike Vacanti: I thought you meant curriculum.

0:38:44.0 Jordan Syatt: No, no, no.

0:38:44.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, for sure. Other kids in school. Yeah. That’s why I kind of want to move to the middle of nowhere, form an anti-tech farm community. Yeah.

0:39:00.8 Jordan Syatt: Go to the Amish in Pennsylvania.

0:39:02.4 Mike Vacanti: Maybe I will.

0:39:03.2 Jordan Syatt: I think they’ve got it right.

0:39:04.3 Mike Vacanti: I know they’ve got it right. All that time outside.

0:39:08.9 Jordan Syatt: They make good woodworking stuff. They’re good with… They make the best tables and chairs. Susan’s got an Amish-made table. 

0:39:17.7 Mike Vacanti: Oh yeah?

0:39:18.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. 

0:39:19.0 Mike Vacanti: Cool.

0:39:19.6 Jordan Syatt: Good quality.

0:39:21.5 Mike Vacanti: Could have helped me with my baseboard yesterday.

0:39:23.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, probably. Could have built your whole house. 

0:39:31.8 Mike Vacanti: Let’s do a couple rapid fire questions from the Syatt Fitness Q&A.

0:39:34.6 Jordan Syatt: I’m an athlete/coach. How do you split your content that you share? And I’m imagining that he’s… This is Martin Chudgnacki, I think he’s asking, all right, how do you split your content between the content of you as an athlete versus the content of you as a coach? How do you make that split? And it’s not like a 50-50 split. I think you can post both, but realistically, if you’re using your social media as a way to grow your business, there are a couple ways you could take it. If you’re an athlete and you just want to work with very high level people, actually, no, I’m going to go back on that. I was going to say, if you just want to work with high level people, then it would make sense to also maybe post more of your athletic stuff. But I’m going to go back on that. If your social media is for the purpose of building your business, the majority of it should be educational. And you can incorporate your own athletic stuff into these educational posts.

0:40:39.8 Jordan Syatt: This is how I ran a five minute 30 mile. It’s great. I ran a 530 mile. Here’s how I did it. Here’s my training program. Here’s what I recommend. Here are common mistakes. You can incorporate them both into the same post. But education has to be the backbone of your content, no matter what. And one of the major issues I see, especially with athletes, and we could talk about bodybuilders and physique competitors who just show off their body all the time and just say, look how lean I am. And they just are going for ego likes and just like, hey, like tell me how great I look. You could look at people who are freak athletes who run ridiculously fast or lift a lot of weight and they just continuously just show how incredible they are. You could do people who are just objectively super attractive men and women who just post themselves essentially naked all the time on social media and essentially just looking for engagement farming, just trying to get as much engagement as possible to stroke their ego. If your social media is more for your ego, then just post your own accomplishments. That’s it. But that’s not going to translate nearly as well to business as education. And I specifically say nearly as well because it can translate to business and it does. I mean, one of the ways I used to get clients when I coached people in person is I would go to another gym and I would deadlift really, really heavy. And people would be like, oh, shit, how are you doing that? And then I would get some clients from it. But you also don’t want your brand solely built on how you look and how you perform because it will hurt your brand long run. 

0:42:25.0 Mike Vacanti: It’s a trap.

0:42:25.4 Jordan Syatt: And you want people coming to you for your brains, not your body. This is for everyone. You want people to want to work with you for your brains, not your body. And I will say one of the… I think this is actually more… I’ve worked with many women, both in the mentorship and with just in general, who have fallen into the trap of, well, I get way more engagement if I post a more provocative picture of myself. But the issue is they’re getting these thirsty dudes who are liking these pictures and engaging with them, but they’re not becoming your coaching clients, which is like one of the reasons why the women who I found are the most successful in the social media space are the ones… I’m not telling you what to wear or what to post. I’m just telling you in my experience what I’ve seen as most successful. It’s the women who don’t show off their body and they show off their brains. They show off their education because that’s what’s going to lead to people who actually want to work with you. Whereas if you just want to stroke your ego and get more likes and views, yeah, show your body because you’re going to get a lot of thirsty dudes who are lying in bed and just scrolling through and looking at, it’s gross. If you just want to have a lot of likes so you can go out and have your friends or your family like, wow, you have so many followers, so many likes, your comment section is going to be gross and your DMs are going to be gross and it’s not going to translate to actual income. If you want to build a business that is making legitimate money and helping people achieve their goals, build it off your brains, not your body.

0:44:01.8 Mike Vacanti: Clips Nation. I love it. Completely agree. The only thing I’ll add is a very slight caveat/emphasis on the fact that if you demonstrate in your own fitness the type of progress that your clients want to make, that’s going to accelerate your business.

0:44:28.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:44:28.1 Mike Vacanti: You’re like case study number one for your own philosophies is going to… Like education is clearly most important, but if you’re also practicing what you preach, that’s going to lead to a higher conversion of signups.

0:44:45.7 Jordan Syatt: Massively. It’s a force multiplier.

0:44:48.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. 

0:44:49.1 Jordan Syatt: And when you stand out as the person who’s like, hey, I’m not just intelligent, I’m also working hard and practicing what I preach. And there’s an old saying, and I feel like this saying has gotten some kickback, but I actually think there’s some merit to it, which is like your body is your business card. It’s like, if you have… Generally speaking, if you’re talking about the general population, I’m not saying whether this is right or wrong, but like just objectively what happens in real… We’ll take it out of fitness. If you have two people who are financial advisors and they’re both incredibly intelligent, well-spoken, and you’re following both of them, and one of them says like, yeah, I’m in debt. And the other one says… Shows their bank… Like they both show their bank account. One’s in debt and one of them has way more money. I’m going to work with the fucking person who has way more money because obviously they know what they’re doing, even though they might say the exact same things. You’re still going to go probably more with the person who has more money. It’s the same thing.

0:45:52.9 Mike Vacanti: Just reality.

0:45:53.9 Jordan Syatt: It’s the reality of it. Whether or not you agree with it is irrelevant. It’s just the truth. And if you can… I mean, even looking at my mobility stuff over the last almost two years, I don’t know, a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the people who joined the Inner Circle prior to this were joining for mobility. No one was joining for mobility, but because I’ve been able to show how much I’ve improved my mobility, people have been like, oh, shit. I know you weren’t born with this ability. I know you weren’t like… You haven’t been doing this forever. They saw my progress. They’re like, hey, I want that. I want to be able to do that because I showed them that I did it. It’s the same thing.

0:46:36.0 Mike Vacanti: And that’s what I mean by demonstrating your progress. It can be strength. It can be performance. It can be physique. But if it’s physique, like let’s say you lost a whole bunch of weight and kept it off and look great. What Jordan said about posting like thirst traps still stands. Meaning you can show off your progress in a tasteful way rather than male or female posting provocative pictures for engagement. Rapid fire.

0:47:13.2 Jordan Syatt: Isn’t it interesting? Someone said your podcast isn’t linked in your bio, which brings up an interesting discussion of what should be in your bio. And I deliberately haven’t linked it in my bio because in my bio, number one, I’m posting about my podcast constantly on my feed and in my stories. I’m constantly posting clips from it and saying, giving people the links to it. For me, the link in my bio is, it’s a very important link. And if you have tons and tons of links, here’s my Amazon affiliate link and here’s this link and here’s that link and here’s my online coaching and here’s the link to my ebook and here’s that. If you have a ton of links, it’s overwhelming. And people, they don’t know what to click. And what you really should do is you should prioritize one, maybe two links. That’s it. Just one, maybe two. If you have a ton of links, I think you’re actually hurting your business. One or two at most and they’re the top priority. And not to mention, I don’t think many people are gonna go from my Instagram bio to my podcast link and then go listen to a bunch of my podcasts.

0:48:27.3 Jordan Syatt: If someone’s on Instagram, they’re not gonna go like, all right, I’ll go listen to a three hour podcast right now or even an hour podcast. Usually, if they’re ready to listen to a podcast, they’ll either see a clip of it and then be like, hey, I wanna go listen to that and then they can reply or they can go search it out. But that’s also why I have the automation set up where if they, like I say, comment podcast, I’ll send you the link to it. But very few, if any, people are gonna go, hey, let me go look at the link in his bio. Oh, now I’m gonna go listen to his podcast. So make it very, a deliberate choice of which links you should have. Maybe one of them is an email list, like a free… Like something to get on your email list and another thing to apply for coaching. Those are probably like the most important links you can have in your bio.

0:49:10.8 Mike Vacanti: I like it. Some great tactical advice on the social medias. We got a mentorship Q&A shortly that we’re gonna hop on first this week’s Bible verse of the week, Hebrews 10:26. You ready?

0:49:27.6 Jordan Syatt: I love this. Let’s do it.

0:49:28.9 Mike Vacanti: If we have deliberately kept on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left. I see and have experienced myself this feeling or belief maybe that it’s okay if I do bad, and it’s almost like a childish mindset. It’s okay if I do bad things because I can just ask God for forgiveness. I heard this verse, Cam Newton has a podcast. You know who Cam Newton is, football player?

0:50:13.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. He’s on the Bengals?

0:50:15.9 Mike Vacanti: He is retired. He played for the Panthers for a long time.

0:50:21.1 Jordan Syatt: He is super famous. Yeah.

0:50:23.1 Mike Vacanti: Yes. And I heard it in a clip on YouTube from a podcast he was doing with this other guy. I actually don’t even know who the guy was who said it. But basically, I had never heard this verse before, which is saying that if you consciously and knowingly continue to do wrong when you know it’s wrong, then maybe that forgiveness that you always assume is there from God isn’t there. We talk about fear a lot in different contexts. I think fear of God is actually a proper fear that orients our lives in a positive direction. And this one sent a chill of fear up my spine.

0:51:21.8 Jordan Syatt: Did it really?

0:51:22.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah. It hit.

0:51:25.6 Jordan Syatt: When you’re saying that forgiveness isn’t there, are you saying that your idea of forgiveness is that you’re just not absolved? It’s just you might think that you’re being forgiven for all of your sins, for all the things you’re doing, but if you just keep doing this, at a certain point, the forgiveness wears out?

0:51:43.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And that point is more, I don’t think it’s definitive. I don’t know. I’m not the expert to analyze this verse.

0:51:56.3 Jordan Syatt: No, but that’s what’s fun is we can talk about it. And…

0:51:59.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah. But it’s the knowing something is wrong. There’s a difference between making a mistake and asking for forgiveness versus consciously, repeatedly making the same decision. It’s not a mistake at a certain point. You keep doing it over and over.

0:52:21.5 Jordan Syatt: It’s a choice.

0:52:22.1 Mike Vacanti: Sorry, God. Do it again. I’m sorry, God. And then eventually it’s like, okay, you know this is wrong. You’re about to, whatever, lose your cool, whatever the sin is, and you continue to do it anyway. It’s like…

0:52:36.4 Jordan Syatt: I was listening to a rabbi talk about this last night because Yom Kippur is coming up, which is traditionally the day of repentance where you repent for your sins. He had a really interesting take, and I don’t remember it verbatim, but he’s like, there’s different types of asking for forgiveness where it’s like, there’s one type where you’re asking for forgiveness because you’ve done something wrong, but you know the person’s going to be really mad at you. And you know that it’s likely going to mean that you’re no longer friends with them anymore. You’re just completely… They’ll remove you from their life completely. There’s another type of asking for forgiveness where it’s like, hey, I made this mistake. Can we still be friends? It’s like, yeah, we can still be friends, but I’m not going to trust you. The relationship is now completely different. So one is like, I’m not involved in your life anymore. Another is we’re still involved, but it’s just the trust has been broken so severely that it’s hard to rebuild any meaningful relationship. But then there’s another type of forgiveness where… And I’m probably butchering all this, but the last one that he said is, hey, I made this mistake. And now that I’m bringing it up to you, and because you’re also so understanding, our relationship is now stronger as a result of it.

0:53:57.6 Jordan Syatt: It’s like you might actually become closer because of this mistake and because you were honest about it and almost thinking of it as like, okay, if you were to have a friend and you kept making that same choice over and over and over and over again, there’s only so long before, hey, the first time I get it, second time not happy about it, third time, like how many times can you keep making this before it’s like you’re actively making a choice to destroy what we have? And he was talking about that in relation to Yom Kippur. And I think it’s actually a similar discussion in which it’s like, if you keep making this over and over and over and over again, I mean, who you’re really hurting is yourself, number one. You’re really… Because you know you shouldn’t be doing it. And simply asking for forgiveness, even though you know you shouldn’t be doing it, the person who’s hurting the most is you, never mind whoever else is involved and whatever else is going on. But I don’t even know where I’m going with this other than I thought it was interesting, the different types of asking for forgiveness and the different types of mistakes and the different… Just the repetitive nature of these mistakes over and over and over again. It’s like at what point does asking for forgiveness not make sense anymore? Because it’s just, it’s ridiculous. And I think… I mean, I struggle with that. I think everyone struggles with this in some capacity, but also understanding that just because you’re asking for forgiveness doesn’t mean that you’re forgiven.

0:55:32.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yep. That’s also true. There needs to be almost like behavior change on the back end rather than just words coming out of your mouth. Otherwise those words are empty. 

0:55:44.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. 

0:55:44.7 Mike Vacanti: And in your example, which makes total sense, it’s like, okay, it almost highlights… Thinking of it in terms of a friendship highlights the… It makes it more real almost. And then when you think about asking God for forgiveness and God who has seemingly infinite grace compared to a mere mortal who, yeah, might forgive you one or two or three or four times even, but eventually it’s like, all right, man, what’s going on? Why are we even friends anymore? My, not understanding, but just kind of like vague general understanding, I guess, was that God’s grace runs so deep that you just keep asking for forgiveness. But this verse was the first thing I ever saw that was like, hey, if you’re knowingly and willingly and deliberately continuing to do bad thing over and over and over again, that grace doesn’t go forever.

0:56:45.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, there’s a limit to my grace. Don’t push it.

0:56:50.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, don’t push it. Don’t push it. We got mentorship Q&A. Thank you very much for listening. Five-star review, Spotify, Apple, wherever you’re listening. Jordan and I would greatly appreciate it. Hit that thumbs up button on YouTube and have a wonderful rest of your week.

0:57:05.0 Jordan Syatt: See ya.