Episode 259: The Top 20 Shoulder Exercises Ranked S to F Tier

0:00:11.7 Mike Vacanti: Hello, Jordan.

0:00:12.3 Jordan Syatt: What’s up, Michael?

0:00:13.1 Mike Vacanti: What are you eating?

0:00:13.8 Jordan Syatt: Protein bars.

0:00:14.8 Mike Vacanti: That a baby.

0:00:15.5 Jordan Syatt: Have you tried these Legendary? Not sponsored. Legendary. Have you tried these?

0:00:19.2 Mike Vacanti: Is that the name of the brand?

0:00:20.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it’s Legendary.

0:00:22.7 Mike Vacanti: Wait, is that a protein pop tart?

0:00:24.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:00:24.8 Mike Vacanti: You used to make fun of protein pop tarts. Have you come around?

0:00:27.4 Jordan Syatt: Dude, not only have I come around, I’m a huge fan.

0:00:31.5 Mike Vacanti: I don’t think I’ve ever had one. What are the macros on that thing?

0:00:35.6 Jordan Syatt: We’ve got 180 calories, 9 grams of fat total, 1 gram saturated fat. 22 carb and 20 protein.

0:00:48.1 Mike Vacanti: And tasty.

0:00:48.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. If you want, you could heat it up in the microwave for like 5 seconds. Makes it real nice. But yeah, I’m a big fan. I really like the the blueberry. The blueberry flavor is very good.

0:01:02.0 Mike Vacanti: Blueberry pop tarts in general are delicious, so that makes sense.

0:01:06.4 Jordan Syatt: Bro.

0:01:06.7 Mike Vacanti: Got a Muscle Milk and a Clif Bar over here. My year of eating whole foods only has not started yet.

0:01:14.3 Jordan Syatt: Clif Bar is pretty good.

0:01:15.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, it’s fine. I like this post workout. Yeah. Well, we have a slightly abbreviated episode today.

0:01:22.1 Jordan Syatt: You’re back home. You’re back in the disclosed location.

0:01:26.4 Mike Vacanti: Yes, I am. Yes, I am, flew back on Sunday, which is, as we know, a very different experience than flying solo.

0:01:37.4 Jordan Syatt: Oh, man.

0:01:38.7 Mike Vacanti: But we made it.

0:01:39.6 Jordan Syatt: You made it.

0:01:40.5 Mike Vacanti: And, yeah, man. Have had a productive start to this week.

0:01:45.0 Jordan Syatt: Good.

0:01:45.4 Mike Vacanti: Just got a good push day in.

0:01:46.9 Jordan Syatt: I had a scary experience doing split training the other day. I thought I ripped my hamstring off the bone.

0:01:53.5 Mike Vacanti: No. What?

0:01:54.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, dude. It was bad. Thank God, I’m good. But so often I’ll use extra weight and I’ll like do loaded stretching. And so I was deep in the split. The range I’d been in, the front split, it’s not the side split. So front splits, right leg is forward. And I’ve hit this range before. But basically, I do this thing called a front split deadlift, where I’ll be deep in the range, and I’ll lift up some kettlebells on either side. And it gets you a little bit deeper, and it strengthens your hip flexor in the back and the hamstring in the front.

0:02:32.3 Mike Vacanti: Do you have anything under your feet?

0:02:33.9 Jordan Syatt: No.

0:02:34.3 Mike Vacanti: Where are you holding the kettlebells?

0:02:35.9 Jordan Syatt: They’re on either side of me, so next to my like…

0:02:39.5 Mike Vacanti: Or are you are you elevated?

0:02:40.9 Jordan Syatt: No.

0:02:41.3 Mike Vacanti: They’re not hitting the ground?

0:02:42.2 Jordan Syatt: They are, they’re on the ground, and I lift them up. It’s a deadlift, right? So I pick them up off the ground.

0:02:46.0 Mike Vacanti: Oh, I see. I see. I get it. I get it. Okay.

0:02:49.0 Jordan Syatt: And I’ve done this with…

0:02:50.1 Mike Vacanti: Jordan, I don’t have that range of motion. I’ve never been down in that position, so I’m struggling to visualize what that would be like.

0:02:56.1 Jordan Syatt: You want me to show you a picture of it? I’ll show you a picture.

0:02:57.4 Mike Vacanti: No, now I got it.

0:02:59.1 Jordan Syatt: You get it now? Cool. Yeah. I’m gonna show you a picture anyway. This is the position. So you see that I’m picking the weights up here.

0:03:11.1 Mike Vacanti: I do. Your arms are a little bent for a deadlift, but I will allow it for this one.

0:03:15.0 Jordan Syatt: Well, I’ve got to fucking lift the weights off the ground.

0:03:16.9 Mike Vacanti: It’s a bicep dominant deadlift.

0:03:18.9 Jordan Syatt: It’s basically doing a deadlift without without legs, essentially.

0:03:23.7 Mike Vacanti: I like the arm straight cue on the deadlift. People on YouTube, Spotify video, you can see Jordan’s arms are quite bent.

0:03:32.1 Jordan Syatt: It’s a requirement for the…

0:03:36.8 Mike Vacanti: Okay, I’m impressed. I’m impressed.

0:03:39.2 Jordan Syatt: Anyway. So, but you’ll see. So I usually just do it with the weight and in my mind, I was like, you know what I’m going to do is I’m going to put my weighted vest on. So I added 15 pounds. And the difference is I usually get to the bottom of the range and then lift the kettlebells up.

0:03:54.7 Mike Vacanti: Okay.

0:03:55.1 Jordan Syatt: But with the weighted vest on, now I’m carrying that extra 15 pounds from the beginning, as I’m descending into the split, which means there’s a huge amount of tension on my front hamstring.

0:04:07.3 Mike Vacanti: Yes.

0:04:08.8 Jordan Syatt: And so, as I’m descending, I’m like, a huge amount of tension my front hamstring, and I hear a pop. And I was like, oh, fuck. Like it didn’t hurt, but I felt a… And I heard a pop. And I was like, in my mind, I was like, oh, no. And I immediately come out of it. And I’m just sitting there, just like waiting for the excruciating pain. It doesn’t really come. I do feel something, but basically trying to make a very long story very short, I had spoken with Alex Sterner on my podcast and and he’s spoken a lot about injuries. He tore his adductor relatively recently and came back within like four weeks. There was no bruising in the subsequent day, but basically, oftentimes when people get injured, they, number one, catastrophize in their head. They’re like, what the fuck? I’m ruined. And then they avoid doing anything with that, with whatever’s injured. I did the complete opposite. I like had a pep talk with myself. I was like, no matter what, I’m fine. I’m gonna be back in no time. No issues. Just talking to myself. And I immediately start working my leg through a range of motion. Like immediately.

0:05:25.6 Jordan Syatt: And I continue to do that. My daughter also put a Band-Aid on my hamstring. She was like, oh, Baba has a boo boo. So I think that might have helped a little bit.

0:05:33.1 Mike Vacanti: Cute.

0:05:33.6 Jordan Syatt: But within the the next day, there was like pain, but not excruciating. There was no bruising, so I didn’t tear it, obviously. Within 48 hours, I was back to like 95%. Went on an hour long run, no issues. So clearly I didn’t actually have serious structural damage to it. But also my like…

0:05:55.1 Mike Vacanti: The pop is scary.

0:05:56.1 Jordan Syatt: Yes, scary. Very, very scary.

0:05:57.3 Mike Vacanti: The popping sound is very scary in that position. Yeah. I’m glad you’re okay, bro. That would not have been fun at all.

0:06:03.3 Jordan Syatt: Thank God. Yeah.

0:06:04.4 Mike Vacanti: Can you imagine?

0:06:06.9 Jordan Syatt: Dude, no.

0:06:07.4 Mike Vacanti: Devastating.

0:06:08.2 Jordan Syatt: What else we got for today, bro?

0:06:09.7 Mike Vacanti: Shoulders. We’re ranking shoulder exercises.

0:06:12.5 Jordan Syatt: People are liking these, right?

0:06:14.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, we’re getting some views. People seem to be liking them. We’re getting comments, we’re getting… Let us know if you’re liking them. Let us know if you’re not.

0:06:24.3 Jordan Syatt: But yes, let’s do it.

0:06:26.1 Mike Vacanti: Dumbbell shoulder press. Seated or standing.

0:06:29.7 Jordan Syatt: Dumbbell shoulder press. Well, so I prefer seated. I prefer seated, especially when the target is shoulders. And even when it’s not, like I just prefer seated. I think a seated shoulder press with dumbbells is better objectively than standing.

0:06:47.0 Mike Vacanti: How do you like to be seated?

0:06:49.1 Jordan Syatt: I prefer, well, my ultimate favorite is one of those like short benches that like it’s not like a long…

0:07:00.4 Mike Vacanti: It’s fixed. It’s like a shoulder pressing bench.

0:07:02.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it’s a shoulder pressing bench. That’s my favorite. I think it’s the best. It gives your upper body room to move. Your neck isn’t smushed against the flat bench. If I have the option for the fixed shoulder pressing bench, I’m taking it. If I don’t, I’m doing a pretty high incline. I’m not just straight up and down. Then you’re getting like almost pushed forward a little bit. Your neck is smushed up. So I like to have, like, I don’t know the angle, maybe like a 80-degree angle.

0:07:33.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, depends on the bench. 70, 75, 80, somewhere in that range.

0:07:37.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. And then if the bottom of the bench, that like where your butt is, if you have the ability to angle it upwards slightly, I like that as well. If it’s just flat, sometimes you’ll be sliding off. So you slightly angle that bottom of the bench upwards, and then you’re locked in place.

0:07:52.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, that’s a great position right there. So where are we putting it?

0:07:56.5 Jordan Syatt: Seated. I’m saying seated. I’m not even gonna rank the standing. It’s not bad, but it’s just not the best. I’m saying seated dumbbell shoulder press S tier.

0:08:07.5 Mike Vacanti: Wow. All right. I’m going A tier.

0:08:10.4 Jordan Syatt: Okay.

0:08:10.9 Mike Vacanti: Do you want to rank the standing, too?

0:08:14.3 Jordan Syatt: Standing I’d put a B.

0:08:15.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. I’m trying to, because we have like an overhead press, barbell overhead press on this list. And so I’m thinking about where that’s gonna be and that’s superior to dumbbell standing. So I think B is fair. I think there’s enough trash on this list that like C, D, E are gonna fill up a little. Yeah, seated dumbbell overhead press is a great movement. Any kind of pressing or the majority of overhead pressing just favors the front delt over the side delt. And depending on how much horizontal pressing you’re doing in your programming, you might be getting more front delt work than you think you are. Yeah, A tier.

0:09:04.3 Jordan Syatt: I like that.

0:09:04.9 Mike Vacanti: Barbell overhead press/military press.

0:09:07.8 Jordan Syatt: So I put the seated dumbbell at S tier. I’m putting the barbell overhead at A tier.

0:09:13.5 Mike Vacanti: Okay.

0:09:14.0 Jordan Syatt: I think it’s a classic. It might even deserve the S just because it’s so nostalgic and so just such a powerful, nostalgic.

0:09:23.4 Mike Vacanti: Starting strength, like, yeah.

0:09:25.4 Jordan Syatt: Just like it’s what, it’s just a classic. But realistically, practically, I’ve found that the dumbbell is more versatile, typically easier to learn. I actually like how it feels better on my shoulders. It’s just I put the dumbbell seated an S and the barbell at A, purely from a practicality perspective.

0:09:49.0 Mike Vacanti: And the seated versus standing, right? When you’re seated, you’re using a lot less to maintain a stable position to target your shoulders, especially when you’re on the the couple of bench setups that you described. When you’re doing a standing barbell overhead press, you’ve got a lot of core activation, your glutes are on, like you’re thinking about a lot and there’s a lot working other than just your shoulders. The barbell overhead press is nostalgic. It is classic. It is almost as much cool from a skill perspective to get strong at it and just be able to push more and more weight over your head. Which might even be more important or like more relevant in these rankings than how much are we targeting all three parts of the shoulders with this exercise? How much is this contributing to muscle gain? What do the EMG say? Yada, yada, yada. That being said, I’m going A tier with this one as well. It’s better than the standing dumbbell, kind of by a lot. I might drop standing dumbbell to C, but not quite in that S tier.

0:10:55.6 Jordan Syatt: I’m assuming it’s not on this list, but I’m just going to ask, is a seated Smith machine overhead press on this list?

0:11:01.9 Mike Vacanti: I mean, it would get put in here because we have military press here. No, not that specific.

0:11:11.4 Jordan Syatt: That’s my favorite of all time. Just for whatever it’s worth.

0:11:13.3 Mike Vacanti: Really?

0:11:13.7 Jordan Syatt: Seated Smith machine overhead press is my all-time favorite.

0:11:18.4 Mike Vacanti: That high incline bench.

0:11:20.6 Jordan Syatt: Dude, yeah. Actually, with the Smith machine, yeah, actually, that’s that’s a good point. If I’m going really heavy, but recently I’ve been doing seated Smith machine behind the neck. And that is… I’m not going to put that at S tier because just so many people can’t access that range but for me, love it. That’s by far my favorite.

0:11:42.8 Mike Vacanti: Feels good on your shoulders.

0:11:44.0 Jordan Syatt: So good. Oh my gosh, so good. Yeah.

0:11:47.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. You didn’t start doing that movement and say, hey, I’m gonna set a PR right here. That wasn’t your mindset going into it, I would imagine.

0:11:55.1 Jordan Syatt: No, no, no.

0:11:56.1 Mike Vacanti: Dumbbell lateral raise.

0:11:57.6 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know if you can’t give this an S tier. Like, are they differentiating between seated and standing?

0:12:04.2 Mike Vacanti: No. So we can rank both.

0:12:06.1 Jordan Syatt: Okay. I think they’re both great. They both have their pros and cons. I honestly really enjoy both of them. The benefit of the seated is typically less momentum, more control over it. But the standing often times you can get a slightly better range of motion on the way down. You’re not obstructed by a seat or something, depending on whatever you’re using. I’m giving an S tier. It’s just classic. It’s effective. Everyone can do it. As long as you’re not standing right in front of the dumbbell rack and preventing people from accessing their dumbbells, it’s great.

0:12:46.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, that’s a good point too because this is probably the most common exercise that blocks the… No, you know what the most common exercise that blocks the dumbbell?

0:12:55.8 Jordan Syatt: Shrugs.

0:12:56.5 Mike Vacanti: Depending on the gym. Yes, that that’s a good one. And in 2010, I would 100% agree with you. Do you know what I see all the time now?

0:13:03.9 Jordan Syatt: Tricep extensions?

0:13:05.0 Mike Vacanti: Standing dumbbell side bends.

0:13:07.7 Jordan Syatt: Stop, in front of the rack?

0:13:09.2 Mike Vacanti: Just unrack it and just…

0:13:10.9 Jordan Syatt: Really?

0:13:11.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. But yeah, shrugs was a classic, especially because you’re normally shrugging heavy dumbbells.

0:13:18.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, exactly.

0:13:19.1 Mike Vacanti: You don’t want to move too far. Yeah. Gosh, I can’t believe I’m about to be a science nerd here. I really don’t want to be, but I’m going to.

0:13:30.6 Jordan Syatt: You are.

0:13:31.2 Mike Vacanti: I am. I guess I am. I’m going A tier with both of these exercises. I’m a huge fan of both. I do both myself in almost every training phase I design for myself. I program them all the time for clients. They’re amazing exercises. Target the side delt really effectively. The tension that you get doing these with a cable throughout the entire range of motion compared to the tension on these, which is less at the bottom, like less in the stretch position and more at the top in the shortened position, like technically for shoulder for side delt growth makes the cable side laterals better.

0:14:23.3 Jordan Syatt: Now you just became everything you hate in this world.

0:14:28.4 Mike Vacanti: I did. I did. I did. Oh. You’re so right. You’re so right. I don’t even like myself right now. I really don’t, Jordan.

0:14:46.8 Jordan Syatt: Man, it’s valid points.

0:14:48.0 Mike Vacanti: I know, but I don’t want it to be. I don’t want it to be. And there’s a real argument to put both in S tier.

0:14:55.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:14:56.4 Mike Vacanti: Like we can have the science be offset by like the coolness and nostalgia and they both make it into S tier. Seated dumbbell side laterals, A tier. Standing S tier. I’m putting them in S tier. You make a great point. I can’t…

0:15:24.7 Jordan Syatt: Make a great point about me hating myself.

0:15:26.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And I can’t do that on my own podcast.

0:15:30.9 Jordan Syatt: Cable lateral raise. Like a differentiation, like the same one you were just talking about?

0:15:35.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. S tier.

0:15:37.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. It’s just… I prefer single arm where like… Not like the crossover one. I don’t like that one as much. It’s good, but I prefer like single arm, get a nice big stretch at the bottom. Constant tension on the muscle. It that’s an S tier exercise. It’s just, it’s great. Love that exercise. I also really like doing it with one of those like straps. You put them around your wrist.

0:16:06.2 Mike Vacanti: You’re becoming everything I hate right now.

0:16:08.4 Jordan Syatt: I like it because then your wrist isn’t breaking. And like, I don’t know. I feel it a little bit better on my shoulder. So when I’m doing it at home, I’ll use one of those straps and I’ll put it around my wrist and then attach it there. But at a regular gym, I’ll just use the handle. And for the vast majority of my life, I’ve just used the handle. But I do like putting the thing on my wrist.

0:16:32.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Like I said before, S tier. I agree with all of that. I’m trying to visualize the… So first, one of the downsides of this is actually depending on the cable machine you’re using, the lightest weight is actually kind of heavy.

0:16:48.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:16:48.8 Mike Vacanti: And so that can be a problem for a lot of people. It’s just it doesn’t take a lot of weight. You might not be able to do these with proper technique, at least right now. So building up with dumbbells will help you get there. I also prefer the single arm. You kind of have to be. And I’m fine being in the scapular plane. I actually think that feels a little better for me, at least.

0:17:17.7 Jordan Syatt: Agree.

0:17:18.5 Mike Vacanti: On both dumbbell and cable. But if you’re going to be doing cable with both at the same time, you basically have to be. Because if you’re going… I’m trying to visualize going straight out to the side with both at the same time, it really wouldn’t work. But yeah, I also do these single arm.

0:17:34.4 Jordan Syatt: One of the cables is always in the way of the other one. It’s like a little bit awkward coming back because then the handles might be starting to touch and bump into each other. It’s just a little bit annoying.

0:17:44.2 Mike Vacanti: Front raise. Dumbbell, plate, or cable.

0:17:48.0 Jordan Syatt: Man, I’m so just handing out S tiers. I’m like, I don’t want to…

0:17:52.6 Mike Vacanti: You love all these exercises.

0:17:54.0 Jordan Syatt: I love all of these exercises. And one of the ways that I decide if it’s S tier is like, how often am I programming it? I’m programming these all the time, constantly. My gut wants to make this S tier, but I’m going to make it A tier because I just want to be a little bit more conservative. I just don’t want to be handing out S tiers like candy.

0:18:16.7 Mike Vacanti: Grade inflation.

0:18:18.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I love a plate front raise. A plate front raise is so underrated. It’s just, yeah, a plate front… They’re all great. But the plate front raise in particular, going all the way overhead. Man, great, great exercise.

0:18:40.4 Mike Vacanti: I like the nostalgia of like a standing alternating dumbbell front raise. Let you workout with a big pump, with a tank top on, just like letting them rip. So that’s pushing this move up for me. The same logic on, okay, how much of each of the three parts of the shoulder are we hitting with a certain exercise? And basically, this is targeting almost exclusive depending on how you do it. If you’re going overhead, I would imagine you’re getting more side delt the way you describe. But it’s mostly a front delt exercise. I also can’t go S tier between A and B. And I’ll go A for the nostalgia. I don’t think I’ve done a plate front raise in a decade, by the way, so I might have to add those back in.

0:19:33.4 Jordan Syatt: Dude, they’re so good. Go full overhead.

0:19:35.7 Mike Vacanti: We used to do… This was probably junior year of high school. We did… Ended the workout with a plate overhead raise, drop set. Like 45s to 35s to 25s. And then with the 25s, we drove the bus for a minute at the end. I think we need to make working out fun again.

0:20:01.4 Jordan Syatt: Dude, I used to, when I was living in New York, and I’ve even done it since, but I started doing it in New York. I would do… I would take a 25-pound bumper plate. I like the bumper plate as opposed to the iron plates because it’s a little bit wider and it just puts my shoulders in a better position, I feel like.

0:20:19.0 Mike Vacanti: Well, 45, you’re okay with either, but with a 25. Okay.

0:20:21.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Do 25. And I would have to do 50 reps, and I can’t let go of the weight until I do all 50. It’s really brutal.

0:20:29.6 Mike Vacanti: I like it.

0:20:30.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. That was how I’d finish some of my workouts.

0:20:33.6 Mike Vacanti: Rear delt fly.

0:20:34.4 Jordan Syatt: I’m going to give…

0:20:35.5 Mike Vacanti: It says dumbbell bent over or machine. I don’t know. Let’s just talk about a dumbbell rear delt because there is some other stuff on here.

0:20:46.8 Jordan Syatt: And a machine is just so different, and I think the machine is better. Like a rear delt fly on the seated pec deck.

0:20:55.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, that’s on here. We’ll get there.

0:20:57.4 Jordan Syatt: Oh, oh, we’ll get there. Okay.

0:20:59.0 Mike Vacanti: So let’s go. Let’s just call this dumbbell rear delt fly.

0:21:02.0 Jordan Syatt: Dumbbell rear delt fly. I’m going to give… I’m fluctuating between B and A. I’m going to give it… I’m really trying to inflate right now. I’m going to give it a B.

0:21:13.6 Mike Vacanti: You’re trying to not inflate.

0:21:14.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:21:16.0 Mike Vacanti: Okay.

0:21:16.2 Jordan Syatt: Now, it is a very good exercise. I really like it. Practically, I see almost everybody doing it wrong. They’re chicken winging their arms.

0:21:28.4 Mike Vacanti: Too heavy.

0:21:29.1 Jordan Syatt: Way too heavy. They have like, if you’re doing this, you should video yourself because I almost… Very few people who are not very dialed in with their training are doing this properly. If you do it properly, it elevates the grade, but just most people are not doing it properly.

0:21:46.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And with the technique you described, chicken winging, meaning their hands are kind of further back than they should be, their elbows are probably more bent than they should be, and they’re using more upper back muscles rather than isolating their rear delts. The rear delt, if you just look at like the muscle relative to the size of your other muscles on your body, isn’t very big. So this isn’t a movement that requires super heavy weights. I’m gonna break this out. I’m gonna go B tier for a seated bent dumbbell rear delt fly and I’m gonna go…

0:22:24.3 Jordan Syatt: Like bent over?

0:22:25.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, like seated…

0:22:27.4 Jordan Syatt: Like hugging your knees. Yeah.

0:22:27.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yep. And I’m gonna go A tier for a lying chest supported rear delt.

0:22:34.0 Jordan Syatt: Valid. 100% agree.

0:22:36.1 Mike Vacanti: And a lot of that is nostalgia. Some of it is… So compared to a cable or a machine, we’re lacking constant tension here. But what I like about the dumbbell variation is you get to pick, you have more control over the, like how you’re greasing the groove, like where exactly your hands are. It just feels… I like having that flexibility rather than being on more of a fixed path.

0:23:15.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, agree.

0:23:16.5 Mike Vacanti: Face pull.

0:23:17.5 Jordan Syatt: Oh, man. Face pull’s a great exercise. I really enjoy it. I’m gonna give it a B though.

0:23:27.5 Mike Vacanti: You’re giving it a B for shoulders or giving it a B in general?

0:23:30.2 Jordan Syatt: Yes, I’m giving it a B for shoulders. I think it’s a great exercise for shoulder health, for scapular movement. I think it’s a very good exercise to have within your programming. But from like a shoulder development perspective, it’s not A or F, it’s not A or S. I think it’s a B tier. There is also, again, just the likelihood of someone performing it incorrectly.

0:24:01.3 Mike Vacanti: Technique.

0:24:02.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, people really fuck this one up. But it’s a very good exercise. I do like face pulls.

0:24:09.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And you can bias them with your technique towards more rear delt versus more like mid trap, lower trap, more rhomboid dominant. You can do a lot with these depending on how low or high you have the attachment, where exactly you’re pulling towards, are you pulling towards your forehead, are you pulling towards your chin? I’ll go A tier for, I think nostalgia and personal enjoyment and how they feel for me bumps them a little higher.

0:24:45.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. You do face pulls like all the time.

0:24:48.7 Mike Vacanti: I like face pulls. I like face pulls a lot. I also just like, it might be because I’m better at it relative to overhead pressing, or it might just be because it feels better training the rear delts more. I’m not exactly sure, but I like training rear delts more, definitely more than front delts. That’s for sure.

0:25:13.4 Jordan Syatt: That’s fine. I’m the opposite. I prefer front delts.

0:25:16.3 Mike Vacanti: Interesting.

0:25:17.4 Jordan Syatt: I think for me, it’s sort of like I enjoy the burn of my hamstrings, I hate the burn of my quads. I enjoy the burn of front delt, I hate the burn of rear delt.

0:25:29.7 Mike Vacanti: Really?

0:25:30.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:25:31.0 Mike Vacanti: Why is that? The lower body makes sense.

0:25:34.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, just the quad burn sucks, hamstring burn I really enjoy. Rear delt burn…

0:25:40.3 Mike Vacanti: I think people can relate to that, by the way. At least I can.

0:25:43.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Rear delt burn for me is just, for me objectively like more uncomfortable than a front delt burn. Like a front delt burn for me is like, yeah, like I enjoy it. Rear delt burn, I’m like, fuck, oh, it’s a very different experience emotionally.

0:26:01.6 Mike Vacanti: Interesting. If that were the case for me, I think I would like it less, but I like the feeling of a rear delt burn. I also think I got brainwashed in a good way. Maybe like 12 or 15 years ago about like you’re training the mirror muscles way too much and not enough on your posterior chain, like train way more posterior chain, have a more balanced physique.

0:26:24.3 Jordan Syatt: Two to one push pull or pull push ratio. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:26:28.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. So there’s some of that.

0:26:29.5 Jordan Syatt: We were all brainwashed by that.

0:26:32.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And when I say brainwashed, I actually, look, it depends on what someone’s program looked like, but for someone who was doing a chest day with like 20 working sets of chest and then they didn’t have any rowing in their program, and right now that sounds ridiculous, but in 2010, it wasn’t as ridiculous.

0:26:49.1 Jordan Syatt: That was so common. I vividly remember being like, what’s your workout schedule? And it’s like, chest this day, arms this day, shoulders this day, and then I repeat.

0:26:59.5 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:27:00.1 Jordan Syatt: I remember those were conversations. There was no back, there was no legs. That was a very real common split. Chest, arms, shoulders.

0:27:09.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah, maybe some abs in there.

0:27:10.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah.

0:27:12.3 Mike Vacanti: Upright rows.

0:27:13.4 Jordan Syatt: Oh, man. Upright rows. This is a really tough one. Back in the day, going back to the brainwashing days, these were vilified. These were just, you don’t do it, you’re going to kill your shoulders. Terrible exercise. It’s like you’re going to get impingement. Which is not accurate. However, just for me, I’ve never… It’s not that I don’t feel, but I don’t feel them as well in my shoulder as so many other exercises. I’m going to give this a C.

0:28:05.4 Mike Vacanti: You feel more upper trap?

0:28:08.0 Jordan Syatt: If I say yes, then it’s going to be like, well, you’re doing it wrong. You’re not initiating it properly. But it’s not that I don’t feel it in my rear delts or any of that, but inherently I feel less.

0:28:22.1 Mike Vacanti: You feel it less than these other shoulder movements.

0:28:24.0 Jordan Syatt: I feel it less. I feel it less.

0:28:25.9 Mike Vacanti: Like a dumbbell lateral or a side cable lateral. You’re feeling way more in your delt than an upright row.

0:28:32.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:28:33.6 Mike Vacanti: That’s fair. Yeah. I’ll go B. Not the greatest exercise of all time for your shoulders. Similar to the way you describe face pull, the way you described… Or I don’t remember if you said face pull, but you definitely said rear delt flies. Not the easiest technical exercise to teach someone. I have had some success with clients with stubborn shoulder growth. And this could just be like, bro sciency. Hit it from a different angle, bring in a new exercise, new stimulus they haven’t done before. After maybe years of the same rotation of shoulder exercises that has seemingly led to some improvements in their deltoid development. But I think B, there’s a lot better shoulder exercises.

0:29:26.6 Jordan Syatt: Was it the upright rows or was it the peptides, bro?

0:29:34.9 Mike Vacanti: Dude, peptides are crazy.

0:29:37.3 Jordan Syatt: Crazy.

0:29:37.9 Mike Vacanti: Which terrifies me.

0:29:40.8 Jordan Syatt: Why? Because you want to do it?

0:29:42.0 Mike Vacanti: No, because there’s no free lunches. We don’t know. Look, maybe these are the first free lunches in human history, but until now there haven’t been free lunches.

0:29:52.0 Jordan Syatt: It’s true.

0:29:52.6 Mike Vacanti: Which is why I think anyone who is using them, using them intelligently, using them in moderation is better than just, oh, these are safe. I’m just going to blast high dosage of as many of these as possible. I sent you the… I don’t think you ever replied to this. I don’t think we talked about it since I sent it to you. Gosh. Now I’m slightly blanking on details, but it was along the lines of Retatrutide versus Tirzepatide and resting heart rate. And basically, I should actually just look at it.

0:30:28.3 Jordan Syatt: You said, I don’t know if it’s accurate, but the post was saying that Retatrutide negatively impacts HRV and that it increases resting heart rate.

0:30:38.1 Mike Vacanti: Yes, yes.

0:30:39.8 Jordan Syatt: Which I don’t know.

0:30:41.1 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know if it’s true either. We’ll leave this in. But it’s some speculation that we don’t actually know the answer on. And by the way, having a slightly elevated resting heart rate for a fixed period of time, if there are a ton of benefits, sweet. But if you’re thinking about using it for an extended period of time, years, decade. That’s something you would want to consider if that’s true.

0:31:08.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:31:09.5 Mike Vacanti: Reverse pec deck/rear delt machine fly.

0:31:13.6 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah, this is S tier. This for me, I love this exercise so much. I love the pec deck so much, I’m considering buying one for my home gym.

0:31:26.2 Mike Vacanti: Would you hit chest flies on it, too?

0:31:28.2 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah, dude. I love chest flies on it. And rear delt. It’s a substantial piece of equipment to bring into your gym. This is not a small amount of space. It’s not inexpensive.

0:31:40.4 Mike Vacanti: I have a question. I think I’m slightly an idiot. What is a… Is this just the same machine? I’ve never heard of a rear delt machine fly.

0:31:48.7 Jordan Syatt: It’s the same machine.

0:31:49.8 Mike Vacanti: That’s just reverse pec deck.

0:31:50.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it’s reverse pec deck.

0:31:51.6 Mike Vacanti: Well, it listed the way that it spit these out. Sometimes it’s listing two exercises. So barbell OHP/military press. It’s listing multiple exercises and it did that here. Okay. Reverse pec deck.

0:32:06.3 Jordan Syatt: Dude, S tier.

0:32:06.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, you’re getting… I mean, and I spoke earlier about having fewer options in terms of, being on a fixed path for each rep. But you can adjust the height, right?

0:32:20.5 Jordan Syatt: You can even stand up if you want. You could.

0:32:22.4 Mike Vacanti: You can stand up.

0:32:24.2 Jordan Syatt: It’s probably easier for me because I’m shorter.

0:32:25.6 Mike Vacanti: You can do them sideways, like standing one arm at a time. So you can actually have your arm come across the midline and get a bigger stretch in that rear delt, which is, I mean, if you’re trying to grow those rear delts.

0:32:43.7 Jordan Syatt: I’m literally just searching. I literally was like, I need to go look and see if I should buy one right now. I’m seeing how much it costs. It’s like $5,000 for one of these from Life Fitness.

0:32:52.8 Mike Vacanti: I mean, you’re getting two exercises out of it. It’s not like…

0:32:56.8 Jordan Syatt: Many exercises. Just two muscle groups.

0:33:00.4 Mike Vacanti: Variation.

0:33:01.0 Jordan Syatt: But yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love that machine.

0:33:04.5 Mike Vacanti: Like a seated leg extension, you’re only getting one exercise. A leg press, you’re only getting one exercise, and those are taking up probably similar amounts of space.

0:33:13.2 Jordan Syatt: Leg press is way more space and way more expensive.

0:33:15.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:33:15.7 Jordan Syatt: My hack squat machine has not been getting used lately.

0:33:18.6 Mike Vacanti: Has not?

0:33:19.3 Jordan Syatt: No.

0:33:19.7 Mike Vacanti: It’s all right.

0:33:20.3 Jordan Syatt: I’ve been really liking the Smith machine squats.

0:33:22.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. You’ll cycle back to it.

0:33:24.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I’ll go I’ll go back to it. Yeah. My wife really likes the hack squat.

0:33:28.3 Mike Vacanti: Dorian Yates really liked the hack squat.

0:33:30.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:33:30.5 Mike Vacanti: Did you know that or are you just saying, yeah?

0:33:31.8 Jordan Syatt: I’m just saying, yeah. I heard that.

0:33:34.2 Mike Vacanti: Oh, yeah, cool. Good for Dorian Yates.

0:33:36.2 Jordan Syatt: I don’t even… If his face was right in front of me, I couldn’t be like, oh, yeah, that’s Dorian Yates. I’m like…

0:33:43.4 Mike Vacanti: Really?

0:33:43.8 Jordan Syatt: I would know that I… I mean, obviously, because he’s jacked out of his mind, but like I wouldn’t… I’ve never been like so big in the bodybuilding world where I’m like, oh, yeah, that’s Dorian Yates, that’s Franco Columbu, like, I would know who Franco Columbu is.

0:33:55.7 Mike Vacanti: Have you ever seen the content of wives showing their husband’s pictures of like famous women on a projector and then the husband has to guess who it is? We should do that on this podcast with bodybuilders for Jordan. In fact, I’m making a note. Bodybuilder quiz for Jordan.

0:34:16.5 Jordan Syatt: That’s fun.

0:34:20.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, and they’ll like, it’ll be like some attractive actress, right? Or like pop culture.

0:34:25.7 Jordan Syatt: Should I do that for you with MMA fighters?

0:34:27.9 Mike Vacanti: I would dominate.

0:34:28.9 Jordan Syatt: No, you wouldn’t. There’s no way you would.

0:34:30.6 Mike Vacanti: If we ranked them, like, rank the top 30 bodybuilders of all time, and then top 50, let’s say bodybuilders of all time and top 50 MMA guys. I think that you would struggle with like 30 to 50 more than I would struggle with 30 to 50.

0:34:46.0 Jordan Syatt: That’s a fair assessment. I think that is a fair. The only way that I could finagle this is it wouldn’t just be UFC. There are other organizations that like people don’t get into the UFC because of politics. And then I would be getting fighters who I think are objectively better, but they never got in the UFC because of…

0:35:07.0 Mike Vacanti: Well, then I’m gonna go outside of the IFBB and pick some random schlub and be like, this guy’s the 28th best of all time, but politics kept him off the stage. Who is he? All right. Yeah, that’s an S tier movement right there. Okay, seated dumbbell press we did. Cable Y raise. Raise cables in Y shape overhead.

0:35:34.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I know what a cable Y raise is, dude.

0:35:37.4 Mike Vacanti: I don’t. I have never done this exercise.

0:35:39.1 Jordan Syatt: Really?

0:35:39.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:35:40.1 Jordan Syatt: Oh, this is a great exercise.

0:35:41.6 Mike Vacanti: Is this just a double cable side delt raise, but you’re taking it up higher in the air?

0:35:48.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, you go all the way up and overhead.

0:35:51.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, I can picture Mike Israetel doing this on a reel from 2023.

0:35:56.5 Jordan Syatt: It’s a great exercise. I really enjoy it.

0:35:58.9 Mike Vacanti: Did he invent it?

0:35:59.7 Jordan Syatt: I don’t know if he invented it. I sort of, I doubt he invented it.

0:36:03.3 Mike Vacanti: Okay.

0:36:04.2 Jordan Syatt: I doubt he invented it. You know who talks about it a lot is Paul Carter. He does talk about it all the time.

0:36:12.5 Mike Vacanti: Okay.

0:36:14.9 Jordan Syatt: I think it’s a great exercise. I don’t know if I would be like, this is a great like shoulder. I think there’s a lot of low mid trap. I think there’s even a lot of upper trap.

0:36:26.7 Mike Vacanti: Wait, help me. Are we facing the attachment?

0:36:29.4 Jordan Syatt: You’re facing the cable machine. Yeah.

0:36:31.2 Mike Vacanti: Okay. All right. So the line of pull isn’t directly lateral. It’s like coming back.

0:36:38.3 Jordan Syatt: No, it’s not. It’s it’s almost straight up, dude. It’s almost like to a Y. It’s not a T. It’s like…

0:36:44.7 Mike Vacanti: No, I get it. But I’m saying the attachments aren’t to your sides, they’re in front of you.

0:36:49.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, they’re in front of you and down. Yeah.

0:36:51.7 Mike Vacanti: I see. I see, I see, I see. Okay.

0:36:56.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:36:57.6 Mike Vacanti: Way more rear delt than a side raise.

0:36:59.6 Jordan Syatt: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:37:00.6 Mike Vacanti: More rear delt than a side raise. But the point you’re about to make is it’s not entirely rear delt because you’re using your traps.

0:37:05.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. A lot of traps. I would rhomboid, like it’s it’s mid back for sure. As a shoulder specific exercise, I’m going to give it a B. As an overall exercise, I would I think it’s probably closer to an A. But like it’s a great exercise.

0:37:24.8 Mike Vacanti: I don’t think I can rank it because I didn’t know what it was until four minutes ago.

0:37:28.9 Jordan Syatt: That’s fair.

0:37:29.6 Mike Vacanti: Push press and we got to go fast, unfortunately. These are fun. We kind of go deep on these.

0:37:36.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I like these. Push press as a shoulder specific exercise. Man, people are not going to like what I’m about to say. For a shoulder development exercise, I’m going C, maybe even D.

0:37:50.0 Mike Vacanti: D tier.

0:37:51.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:37:51.8 Mike Vacanti: This is D tier.

0:37:53.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:37:53.6 Mike Vacanti: Athleticism, cool.

0:37:55.5 Jordan Syatt: Yep.

0:37:56.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Bent over reverse fly. I don’t understand how this is. Is this just a standing dumbbell rear delt fly?

0:38:05.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, correct. We’re just bent over. Yeah.

0:38:07.6 Mike Vacanti: Okay. So for shoulders, it’s got to be a step below wherever we put a chest supported rear delt fly.

0:38:14.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, I’d put this at B.

0:38:17.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Are you throwing your forehead on something for a little stability or is that too weird for you?

0:38:22.5 Jordan Syatt: I prefer that. I put it on like the top of a bench, of an incline bench. Probably put a little pad on top and like a towel or something. Put my forehead on it.

0:38:32.3 Mike Vacanti: Germs. Germaphobe. You don’t want your forehead on that.

0:38:33.9 Jordan Syatt: No, no, not germs. It’s just like if it’s a padded bench, great. But like mine or often they’ll have like a metal piece coming out. I don’t want my head on the metal.

0:38:45.4 Mike Vacanti: Lying cable lateral raise.

0:38:49.3 Jordan Syatt: I think this is more for show than actually go, you know what I mean? I think it’s…

0:38:53.8 Mike Vacanti: I don’t care if this won all the EMGs. I’m putting this below the standing variation of it because it’s just ridiculous. Like excessive setup, taking up room, bringing a bench over to the cables, like just a lot of unnecessary steps.

0:39:23.9 Jordan Syatt: Agreed, completely. Yeah, I’m going to put this at a C.

0:39:28.7 Mike Vacanti: Oh, a C. Wow.

0:39:30.4 Jordan Syatt: Aggressive.

0:39:31.5 Mike Vacanti: Hey, you really, yeah, good. I was going to go A.

0:39:36.3 Jordan Syatt: Oh, really?

0:39:37.0 Mike Vacanti: Well, we put we put the standing cable lateral at S. So I was going to go A here, but I’ll knock it down to a B for its ridiculousness.

0:39:45.3 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, we’ll call it B. We’ll call it B.

0:39:46.6 Mike Vacanti: Meet in the middle. Jordan’s favorite exercise of all time. The Renegade row.

0:39:53.7 Jordan Syatt: Ugh. That’s on the list?

0:39:56.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:39:57.0 Jordan Syatt: That’s an F. That’s an F, fail. Fuck it. Horrible exercise.

0:40:03.7 Mike Vacanti: You’re going F tier for shoulders and F tier in general?

0:40:07.2 Jordan Syatt: I’m going… That is just for literally everything. F.

0:40:11.3 Mike Vacanti: F tier. I’m with you. Pike push-up.

0:40:14.0 Jordan Syatt: Ooh. Ooh. So many great variations from progressions. Dude, I’m going A tier.

0:40:21.9 Mike Vacanti: I’ll go A with you. Can do it anywhere. You don’t need weights. It’s front delt dominant, so I’m going to knock it slightly for that. But A tier is a good spot for it.

0:40:35.2 Jordan Syatt: And you can increase the range of motion with parallel bars or yoga blocks, whatever you… It’s yeah, great, great exercise.

0:40:42.5 Mike Vacanti: A couple of concrete blocks that you find at a construction site. You can can do these things anywhere.

0:40:47.0 Jordan Syatt: Tires.

0:40:47.6 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah. Band pull apart.

0:40:52.3 Jordan Syatt: I really like them. I prefer them as more of like a prehab type thing, feeling the burn, getting people to feel like what your rear delts actually feel like, so they understand what muscles they’re trying to target, get a little more mind-muscle connection. In terms of causing legitimate developmental changes within your muscles, like it’s not very effective, I don’t think. I think it’d be great for some endurance stuff. I’m going to give it a B.

0:41:25.4 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. That’s a fair place for it. Yeah.

0:41:29.8 Jordan Syatt: You got the most tension in the shortest position. You have basically zero tension in the stretch position. Yeah, I think everything you said is valid there.

0:41:42.4 Mike Vacanti: Handstand push-up, our last one.

0:41:45.0 Jordan Syatt: Ugh. There’s so many things going through my head. I think I prefer a pike push-up. I prefer the pike push-up. I think if you can do a handstand push-up, great. Go for it. It’s a very good exercise. But the percentage of people who can do a legitimate handstand push-up, and I don’t mean freestanding, I mean like supported against a wall.

0:42:11.9 Mike Vacanti: Wall.

0:42:12.4 Jordan Syatt: Like, the number of people who can actually do that is very small. And not only that, unless you’re really good at it and you can increase the range of motion by elevating your hands onto blocks or parallel bars, your range of motion is inherently blocked by your head.

0:42:32.4 Mike Vacanti: It’s a good point.

0:42:32.8 Jordan Syatt: And so it’s really only like half of a overhead press at that point. So from that perspective, I’m going to rank it a B. It would become an A and maybe even S tier for already very highly advanced, elite, elite people who can do a full range of motion on an elevated surface to where they can lower themselves to the point where it’s a full range of motion, hands to their shoulders. Otherwise, no.

0:43:00.0 Mike Vacanti: Nailed that one too. I’m right with you. The fact that such a small percentage of people can actually do these has to knock it down a notch. And, yeah. Not a full range. You’re just training the bad half of the range too, right?

0:43:17.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:43:17.8 Mike Vacanti: You’re you’re not even like the… Yeah, you’re not the bro on the bench who’s doing the bottom half of the range and pumping them out, but he’s getting the stretch and so you’re like, who’s this half-range guy? But he’s massive, right? You’re the guy who like can barely lift the weight, and so you’re just bringing the bar down three inches and back up.

0:43:35.6 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, you’re just locking out over and over. And it’s hard. Very difficult. Yeah.

0:43:40.7 Mike Vacanti: Especially freestanding, but regardless, you’re pressing your body weight. Okay. Great episode. We got a mentorship Q&A to jump on. Thanks for listening. Podcast review, like the YouTube video, subscribe on YouTube. We appreciate you. We’ll be back next week. See you soon.

0:43:45.4 Jordan Syatt: See you.