Episode 226: Nicotine vs. Caffeine, Food Addiction, Finding Balance in Life, & More…

0:00:12.0 Mike Vacanti: Hello, Jordan.

0:00:12.9 Jordan Syatt: What’s up, Michael—Dad?

0:00:14.2 Mike Vacanti: The Fitness Business Mentorship is on sale for a limited time.

0:00:19.2 Jordan Syatt: Oh!

0:00:20.0 Mike Vacanti: We do one to two sales per year for the mentorship.

0:00:24.1 Jordan Syatt: <<whistle>>

0:00:25.4 Mike Vacanti: This is one of them. There won’t be another one for a very long time. So if you’re interested in joining or have been contemplating joining for a while and want to save $500, now is the time to do it. Don’t wait.

0:00:38.8 Jordan Syatt: Bro, I was just thinking right before you hopped on, I was like, “Dude, how blessed are we that we get to do what we love for work?” We get to do the mentorship. We get to hang out and shoot the shit on calls like this.

0:00:53.0 Mike Vacanti: Yep.

0:00:53.3 Jordan Syatt: You get to coach clients one-on-one. I do the inner circle.

0:00:56.2 Mike Vacanti: Yep.

0:00:56.8 Jordan Syatt: The fact that this is just what we do for work and we’re not dealing with motherfuckers in an office, HR department, like nine-to-five, bro…

[overlapping conversation]

0:01:04.9 Mike Vacanti: Bureaucracy, yes.

0:01:06.9 Jordan Syatt: Rent paid…

0:01:08.9 Mike Vacanti: It’s what I remind myself any time I feel like 1% of burnout or boredom or anything.

0:01:20.0 Jordan Syatt: It’s the best.

0:01:20.9 Mike Vacanti: I distinctly remember, 2021 or 2022, being on a mentorship Q&A where someone was talking about, “Oh, I have all these programs to design every week, and I’m getting annoyed with program design,” I’m like, “You need to… ” And guess what? If you’ve been a personal trainer for 20 years, yeah, you might get a little bit bored of designing training programs when you’ve designed tens of thousands of them. Guess what? You could be in an office making less money for more time with shortened hip flexors all day long in tight, uncomfortable clothes, getting told what to do by someone you don’t respect, and that could be your life.

0:01:56.7 Jordan Syatt: Making copies on a broken copy machine [laughter] that the company isn’t willing to upgrade because it costs too much, on shitty chairs that’s hurting your fucking back, dealing with fucking Greg behind you who smells like shit and just is always talking to you nonstop. Bro, oh my gosh. Yeah.

0:02:17.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, man.

0:02:18.2 Jordan Syatt: No hate to Gregs. If there’s a Greg listening, I don’t know why that name came. I don’t even know a Greg.

0:02:23.0 Mike Vacanti: I know some Gregs. I grew up with a Greg.

0:02:27.1 Jordan Syatt: I was just thinking that, and then I didn’t even know you were going to pitch the mentorship, but that’s one reason we do what we do. It’s because we want to help people get to a point where not only they can work the job that they want to work and build the business they want to build, but also help their clients and have a ripple effect across the world that you’re going to be able to see within yourself, within your family, within your clients that… People use the phrase “help society,” “improve society,” and they just say it without thinking, “What does that mean?” What does “improving society” mean? Practically, what does that actually boil down to? And it boils down to the individual, number one, because we are all individuals of a society, and changing the society starts with each individual. If you want to have a better impact on society, doing something like this—that you enjoy and are glad to do—makes you a more productive, happy, enjoyable, productive member of society, that leads to better outcomes for everybody.

0:03:26.7 Mike Vacanti: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Couldn’t agree more. And the sale will not be going on very long.

0:03:37.2 Jordan Syatt: We might just end it. [laughter] We’ve just launch it, but maybe it’s over already. [laughter]

0:03:40.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah, fitnessbusinessmentorship.com.

0:03:42.7 Jordan Syatt: [laughter] “Closed.” [laughter]

0:03:44.0 Mike Vacanti: Apply… No, no, no. Apply now. Apply before Jordan makes us close this sale. But seriously, I agree with you. I’m very grateful we get to do something that we really enjoy. Having worked a corporate job for a couple of years out of college and then getting to move into the fitness space officially and formally and work with clients in-person, work with clients online and build that business, like night-and-day impact on my life. And I hate to do this and throw shade at others, but I’m going to, because why not?

0:04:19.3 Jordan Syatt: Fuck it.

0:04:20.0 Mike Vacanti: We actually both still do what we are teaching.

0:04:24.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:04:25.0 Mike Vacanti: I have a full roster of one-on-one online coaching clients. Jordan is making content out there every single day. He is doing more of a group coaching style with a membership rather than one-on-one…

[overlapping conversation] 

0:04:33.8 Jordan Syatt: Live coaching every week in there. It’s every week.

0:04:36.1 Mike Vacanti: Exactly. And…

0:04:37.1 Jordan Syatt: Writing programs every month.

0:04:38.7 Mike Vacanti: We see so many—and you see this in every industry—but you see in fitness especially, whether it’s the pipeline of online fitness coach burnout after a year, I feel like I can make more money selling the “How To Become A Coach,” or the “Try To Become An Online Fitness Coach” or “Try To Do Personal Training,” don’t succeed at it, realize, “Oh, I can just apply my marketing skills to target a niche of personal trainers to help them do this thing that I didn’t even really do myself.” I like being hands-on because I think… And by the way, this bleeds so well into what you just brought up about you getting back into jiu-jitsu and how it’s going to help you with your daughters and going forward, we can get into that. But when you are actively practicing what you preach, you are a better teacher.

0:05:28.1 Jordan Syatt: You and I have both seen it with numerous, not naming people, but numerous people in the industry who quite literally could not make it as a coach online, and through their inability to make it as an online coach shifted to, “Oh, let me teach other coaches how to build an online coaching business,” it’s wild. It’s really incredible.

0:05:54.9 Mike Vacanti: It’s a wild pipeline.

0:05:56.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:05:56.8 Mike Vacanti: So, fitnessbusinessmentorship.com…

0:05:59.0 Jordan Syatt: On sale.

0:05:59.9 Mike Vacanti: Apply. Whenever you’re ready. Jordan, how did your first BJJ session in a while this morning go for you?

0:06:08.1 Jordan Syatt: Dude, it was like almost 10 months. I think it was like 10 months, first BJJ session back. It was one of those things where I knew when I was ready, I would just, I would know it, I would feel it. I initially stopped about 10 months ago. I tweaked my back, and I was doing a lot. I was doing a lot of mobility work, strength training work, cardio and jiu-jitsu, and…

0:06:32.1 Mike Vacanti: And striking. Was that last summer?

0:06:33.8 Jordan Syatt: Oh yeah, and striking, yeah, it was last summer. Striking last summer. Yep. So I hurt my back before my second daughter was born. And not only was my back just in a bad spot, but also then after my second daughter was born, I tweaked my back again after sleeping like shit in the hospital for a couple of nights. I came back just like… It wasn’t feeling good. And I was just like, “Man, it’s just so crazy and hectic and busy in the house. And I’m really enjoying the mobility stuff. I’m just going to take some time off.” Blink, and 10 months goes by, and back has been feeling amazing for a long time now.

0:07:09.8 Mike Vacanti: “Let’s go.”

0:07:09.9 Jordan Syatt: And literally two days ago I just texted my coach, Isaiah. I was like, I just said, “Hey, it’s time.” And he was like, “Let’s go! Let’s go!” And so he came over, and it was great, man. It was really good. It was very cool to see how much the mobility has transferred over to the jiu-jitsu. Back feels great. Hips feel great. Knees feel great. Obviously a little rusty just taking 10 months away from a highly skill-driven sport. And not only have I taken 10 months off, but he’s been 10 months on. [chuckle] So it’s like the differential has grown substantially just because it’s not like he just stayed where he was; he’s continued to improve and I detrained. But it was great. It was really good. And like I was telling you before the podcast, at this point I’m not doing it to compete. I don’t really have any goals or aspirations of competing in jiu-jitsu. But as my oldest especially gets older—and we’re having real conversations and she’s moving and she wants to be in the gym and work out with me, and we start doing jiu-jitsu—me getting lessons will help me better coach her, especially when she’s younger and before she begins classes, just because it gives me more context and more ideas. And as I’m learning, “Okay, here’s where I can start with her.” And there was a crazy viral video of this like 13-year-old girl who fought off an attacker with jiu-jitsu the other day, which was really awesome to see. But yeah, it’s good to be back. And yeah, that’s it, man. I’m excited to be back.

0:08:40.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And we’ve experienced that same phenomenon in lifting and strength training, mobility work, whatever it is, when you’re more focused on your own goal. Even like nutrition, body comp, if you are doing a 30-day mini-cut, you have more content ideas, you have a level of relatability to your clients that is beyond just your knowledge base when you’re actually going through it in real-time. There’s no substitute for walking the walk, and the benefits that that brings to your ability to help others do the same thing.

0:09:22.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

0:09:23.9 Mike Vacanti: What else we got?

0:09:24.8 Jordan Syatt: I heard you had a great workout this morning. You had a sick pump.

0:09:27.8 Mike Vacanti: Okay. We can talk a little bit about my workout. It was either last week, it might’ve been two weeks ago. I talked about the Dad Split two days a week, way less volume, higher intensity, more sets to failure, channeling 2014 energy, which I’m still doing. However, I made the modification of spreading the volume over three days rather than two days. The two days a week was, one, I kind of missed being in the gym. And now that we got our schedule set here on the home front with the little one, I have the flexibility to do that. And two, doing all of your strength training on two days makes those two days, regardless of a, quote unquote, “lower volume,” they’re still pretty high volume for two days. And one of those workouts that I had designed for myself was a little ambitious. So, spreading that volume out over, keeping the exact same exercises, sets, reps, etcetera, but just spreading them over a three-day window rather than two days, is what I’m doing now. It’s feeling great. I did have a sick pump this morning. It was driven by Special K bars and oatmeal coconut cookies that I had before bed last night, unfortunately, but I’m back. I’m tracking. I’m actually in a slight deficit over the last few weeks. And yeah, man, feeling good.

0:10:47.2 Jordan Syatt: You bring up an interesting point about often people might think, “Hey, I’m going to do two times a week because I want to either spend less time in the gym,” or whatever it is. But a two-day a week bringing the same volume and the same intensity, that’s a devastating two days. Whereas if you spread it over three days, I think probably net time you’re in the gym more, but I think there’s an argument to say that it’s more efficient, and you can bring a higher level of intensity over those three days net than you would with those two days. Because by the end of those two days, the last couple exercises, you’re drained. That sand timer, when you walk in the gym, you turn the sand timer over. By the time you get to those last two or three exercises, your sand is out. But in the three days, you’ve still got some time left, you’ve still got some energy left. And I think that makes total sense. And on your lack of sleep with the new one, taking that level of intensity on two days, ooh, I would imagine is really fucking hard.

0:11:45.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Although I do think that can be overcome with caffeine and adrenaline. I am now the biggest believer in, “I don’t care that I got five total hours of sleep added up last night. I have a workout scheduled today. I’m going to give it everything I got.”

0:12:02.9 Jordan Syatt: Dude, I couldn’t agree more.

0:12:05.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:12:05.0 Jordan Syatt: I almost said this earlier today when we were talking, and I didn’t say it. I usually get between, on the low end is four hours, on the higher end is like five and a half, six hours.

0:12:18.9 Mike Vacanti: On the high end is five and a half?

0:12:20.1 Jordan Syatt: Usually, yeah. I was looking at my watch data. Once in a blue moon, I’ll get seven to eight hours once in a blue moon, but…

0:12:26.9 Mike Vacanti: Okay, watch data, so we’re not talking time in bed, but actual sleep?

0:12:32.0 Jordan Syatt: Actual sleep.

0:12:33.0 Mike Vacanti: Good. Okay.

0:12:34.0 Jordan Syatt: That’s actual sleep. And like, bro, it just is what it is. You just got to fucking do it. 

0:12:39.8 Mike Vacanti: Man, I didn’t realize you were on that level of…

0:12:42.0 Jordan Syatt: Dude, grinding. [laughter]

0:12:45.1 Mike Vacanti: Always… Grinding…

0:12:46.1 Jordan Syatt: Grinding, bro.

0:12:47.0 Mike Vacanti: ABG. Yeah, it’s a mentality.

0:12:52.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:12:52.0 Mike Vacanti: It’s a mentality.

0:12:53.1 Jordan Syatt: And it’s not like… To clarify, I’m not bragging about it, and sleep is obviously really important and this isn’t optimal for health, but when you’ve got young kids and businesses, something’s got to be sacrificed. Something. And you get to choose. Is it going to be your own personal health, which I’ve done before? Is it going to be going out and having dinners with other people and socializing? You’re going to have to sacrifice something. So you get to decide what you’re going to sacrifice.

0:13:24.0 Mike Vacanti: There’s something to be said—and this probably isn’t the most interesting part of all that to zero in on—but the diminishing marginal utility of every set within a specific workout is interesting and varies based on your caloric allotment. I find and have found with clients, and I’m sure there’s research to back this, that if you are in a 300 to 400 calorie per day surplus, that you can have longer workouts and maintain a higher level of performance than if you’re in a deficit. That sand timer has less sand in it when you are eating below your maintenance.

0:14:08.4 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:14:09.0 Mike Vacanti: And it’s important to get the most out of workouts and not waste, not trying to get junk volume in when you’re already completely spent.

0:14:21.1 Jordan Syatt: And I remember—I just had a flashback, I haven’t thought about this in years—but when I was like my absolute leanest, when I was actually… I hired Martin Berkhan, and I just got my absolute leanest, shredded-to-bits. Literal 100% consistency. I was weighing everything. I was weighing fucking onions and spinach. Just like the ultimate, ultimate, ultimate, “I’m going to do this 100%. I’m going to track everything.” I was weighing tomatoes. Just like, “I’m going to do it. I’m going to fucking do it. I’m going to learn it.” Man, I was so… But when I got to my leanest, I was like 118 pounds or something, just shredded. And simply walking to the gym, my legs felt so heavy. And then I would have like a heavy squat session, and then the workouts were very… It was like squat, leg press, leg curl out.

0:15:15.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:15:15.1 Jordan Syatt: And it was like very…

0:15:18.0 Mike Vacanti: Were you taking pre-workout or Turkish coffee? What were you doing for those?

0:15:21.0 Jordan Syatt: Turkish coffee. Turkish coffee, yeah.

[overlapping conversation]

0:15:22.1 Mike Vacanti: Okay. But you were using your caffeine as a pre-workout?

0:15:25.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I was having a lot of caffeine. I wasn’t buying pre-workout and I wasn’t buying pre-workout drinks, partly because they weren’t as common back then in terms of the drinks, but also I didn’t have money, dude. I was spending 100 bucks a month on groceries. Turkish coffee, you get a huge bag for pennies.

0:15:45.9 Mike Vacanti: I feel like you told me that you spent the majority of the money you had on his coaching at that time.

0:15:52.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I emptied my bank account, 300 bucks, on his coaching. Yeah.

0:15:56.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah.

0:15:56.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. But I vividly remember just walking to one of the university gyms, and I used to go to the main gym, but I was staying… After a certain point, probably like eight weeks doing it in this really strict deficit, I opted to go for the smaller gym that wasn’t as good because it was closer. And I was just like, “I’m so tired.” [laughter] “I don’t want to walk the extra 10 minutes.” Yeah, you get exhausted if you’re in a real deficit for a long time, like, “Oh my gosh,” yeah.

0:16:28.6 Mike Vacanti: Absolutely.

0:16:29.1 Jordan Syatt: You know what was a big one in college too? I would imagine because your campus—you had a big campus, dude—the steps you get on a college campus…

0:16:37.0 Mike Vacanti: Massive.

0:16:38.0 Jordan Syatt: Oh my gosh. Insane. Assuming you’re not like one of the rich kids who is driving their car around, you’re actually walking all over campus…

0:16:47.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:16:47.8 Jordan Syatt: Man, dude, I wish I had a tracker back then, because I bet it was easily 30,000 to 40,000 a day.

0:16:53.1 Mike Vacanti: Dude, from the top of Langdon Street to Ag Hall, freshman year to get to Nutritional Sciences 101, you had to go up and down Bascom Hill on the way. It was like a 40- to 45-minute walk each direction.

0:17:07.1 Jordan Syatt: [laughter] Yes. Yeah. [laughter]

0:17:08.6 Mike Vacanti: You’re getting a ton of steps in.

0:17:09.8 Jordan Syatt: Yes. Every day. And then sometimes you’d have a class in the morning, which was like 40 minutes there, 40 minutes back; and you have another class in the afternoon, 40 minutes there, 40 minutes back; and another class at night. It’s like you’re walking several hours a day. Never mind you’re going around the dorms or your apartments, going out to eat, going to the grocery store. It was a huge amount. I used to walk to the grocery store, and then I would just… I brought a hiking backpack. I had a hiking backpack from when I was in Israel, and I would take everything and just put them all in the hiking backpack and everything that didn’t fit, then I would carry back from the grocery store.

0:17:47.2 Mike Vacanti: Smart. Rucking home from the grocery store.

0:17:50.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Grocery rucking.

0:17:52.1 Mike Vacanti: That’s such a health benefit of… It’s one of the big upsides of big cities or like a New York City specifically, where you really don’t need to use public transit to get around. You’re Ubering, you’re taking the subways if you have to go past a certain distance. But for the majority of people, if it’s less than a 20-minute walk and you can do a lot in most neighborhoods, you’re walking. And so you’re getting this natural built-in step count the same way that you just outlined it with college campuses. It’s such a benefit for maintaining body comp, as well as just the little bit of aerobic benefit that comes from call it “zone 1.5” depending on your walking speed that you’re getting in at a high level every single day, compared to suburb life where you need to really make it a priority.

0:18:45.9 Jordan Syatt: You’ve been getting on your treadmill at all?

0:18:47.8 Mike Vacanti: No, it’s summer. It’s summer.

0:18:49.0 Jordan Syatt: Oh, you’ve been going outside, you’ve been getting your steps outside? Yeah.

[overlapping conversation]

0:18:50.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah, no.

0:18:53.0 Jordan Syatt: Oh.

0:18:53.8 Mike Vacanti: No, I haven’t really been getting my steps in. But she’s three and a half weeks old, so it’ll come. We’re getting there. But no, I’m not… I’m probably getting like 6,000 steps a day in, which could be worse, but…

[overlapping conversation]

0:19:06.8 Jordan Syatt: It’s not bad at all.

0:19:07.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. And when you’re managing nutrition too, it’s much easier to see body comp progress without taking a massive number of steps. Now, I would still like that number to be at least a few thousand steps higher per day both for the psychological benefit, for the physiological benefits, the health benefits, and also the recomp benefits. But right now, I’m not quite where I would want to be, but just prioritizing the strength work.

0:19:38.7 Jordan Syatt: What’s your favorite part of being a dad so far?

0:19:41.0 Mike Vacanti: I think I’ve already beat this horse…

0:19:42.8 Jordan Syatt: No, you haven’t beat it at all. You can’t avoid this question. You haven’t beat this horse at all yet.

0:19:49.0 Mike Vacanti: I’ve already beat this horse. I think I just have repeat answers. It’s inexplainable. I can’t do her justice with an answer right now in this moment. We’d reflect back on it, and it’d be like, that’s not a sufficient answer. I don’t have words, and the words that I reach for are…

0:20:10.0 Jordan Syatt: Not enough?

0:20:12.1 Mike Vacanti: Probably not enough, but also just so soft that [laughter] I don’t even want to say them. I don’t even want to say them. But I will since you’re pressing me on this, and then I’m going to press you back, and you’re not even going to see it coming with some of these questions that I’m going to ask when you least expect it to, by the way.

0:20:28.0 Jordan Syatt: Good. 

0:20:29.0 Mike Vacanti: [chuckle] Good.

0:20:30.0 Jordan Syatt: Good.

[overlapping conversation]

0:20:30.1 Mike Vacanti: Broke your leg? Good. [laughter] Train your forearms.

0:20:32.9 Jordan Syatt: Good. [laughter]

0:20:36.1 Mike Vacanti: I think I already beat this horse, and you just don’t remember.

0:20:38.8 Jordan Syatt: No, I did.

0:20:42.0 Mike Vacanti: The analogy that I’m using now for myself when I think about it is that I was walking around with a hole in my heart that I didn’t know was there. And now it is filled, and everything is just better.

0:20:55.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Let’s go. Yeah. I fucking love that, dude.

0:20:59.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:21:00.8 Jordan Syatt: It’s the best.

0:21:01.3 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:21:02.0 Jordan Syatt: You know what’s funny? Sort of playing off the steps and the health and blah, blah, blah, and the sleep, obviously, sleep is really important for health, and steps are really important for health and all of that. But I feel like the love that you get and filling that hole in your heart is this secret weapon to health. And if we look at large-scale data of people who tend to live the longest, it’s not just parents but also grandparents who are close to their grandkids, they tend to live the longest and have happiest, most meaningful… When the grandparents are near their grandkids and they have a good relationship with them, it’s like the ultimate way to safeguard yourself is to just drown yourself in love. You know what I mean?

0:22:01.7 Mike Vacanti: Absolutely. I could not agree more. I was talking about that with my parents over the weekend. We were all hanging out. And yeah, completely on the same page. When we are speaking about it publicly, I still go to, I don’t know the part of me that wants to hold back because infertility is so rampant. JP talked about one of the biggest tragedies he saw in his clinical practice were women who wanted to be mothers but couldn’t be mothers, was one of the hardest things he saw people go through. So, I don’t think we’re coming across as bragging. I have no idea how we’re coming across, but that’s…

[overlapping conversation]

0:22:39.7 Jordan Syatt: We’re not. We’re not. 

0:22:42.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. You’re completely right though. And the research backs it, which is grandparents who are actively involved in their grandkids’ lives… There’s also, and this one probably has a solid amount of correlation baked in and isn’t just pure causation, but there might be a little bit, which is essentially the older a woman gives birth, the longer she lives.

0:23:04.1 Jordan Syatt: Oh, that’s really interesting.

0:23:05.8 Mike Vacanti: The older a woman is when she has her final child, the longer her lifespan.

0:23:11.7 Jordan Syatt: I didn’t hear about that. That’s really cool. I want to look into that. That’s very interesting.

0:23:15.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:23:15.8 Jordan Syatt: And just to note on infertility or not having kids, I think about it like this. I talk about my relationship with food and how I’ve improved, and how I haven’t had a binge in over 10 years, dah, dah, dah…

0:23:33.0 Mike Vacanti: 13.

0:23:34.7 Jordan Syatt: I very much understand that there are people out there who still struggle with binge-eating and anorexia and all that. I feel like sharing my story, it’s not bragging, it’s just… It’s telling my story. It’s telling what I’m going through. And if someone looks at my story and says, “Well, I can’t listen to that because it hurts too much based on where I am,” I get it. That’s totally fine. So you have to unfollow me or do what’s best for your mental health and for your space. But mutually understanding that we’re just telling our stories and without saying… It’s not like hating on someone or anything other than just saying what’s going on in our lives and telling the truth, which I think… I love hearing you talk about being a dad. I love hearing that analogy of you were walking around with this hole in your heart that was just filled. It’s the best. It’s really cool to hear it. And I think most people, if not everyone listening, is just happy for you.

0:24:27.8 Mike Vacanti: Well, thank you. You and everyone. Yeah. There are many ways to find significant meaning in life. I logically chose this one while I was struggling to find meaning in any other way. Yeah. And it worked out, thank God, literally.

0:24:57.9 Jordan Syatt: Baruch Hashem.

0:24:58.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. So, dude, I don’t think I talked on the podcast about the fact that… Oh, no, maybe I did, that I switched gyms to a little bit more like community-friendly style gym instead of big commercial gym.

0:25:13.0 Jordan Syatt: I know you told me. I don’t know if you’d spoken on the pod, but…

0:25:15.9 Mike Vacanti: Gosh, both are… Dude, [laughter] if both our memories are… My reduced sleep has my memory not in a great space, my short-term memory… 

[overlapping conversation]

0:25:23.7 Jordan Syatt: Which isn’t good, because I solely rely on your memory.

0:25:25.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, we’re in trouble. We’re going to become like the old man who just repeats stories. [laughter] “All right, we already heard this one. What’s wrong with you guys?” [laughter] What was I even just going to say? Oh, the gym. Yeah. So, I’ll pretend that we haven’t talked about this, but I’ll go semi-quickly, which is I switched gyms because it’s closer to my house, and it’s a more community-oriented, like YMCA-style gym versus commercial gym. And the difference in how people treat each other, and the friendliness and the cohesiveness, it feels much more like a community. It’s really cool, and I’m really enjoying it. And something I noticed going back, because I had a workout this weekend, I was over in a different part of whatever, geographically different area, went to the commercial gym, and I realized one thing that I didn’t when I started at the local gym, which is the local gym doesn’t have any TVs. There’s no TVs anywhere in the local gym. And there are TVs in the commercial gym. And the mood that that sets, the extra stimulation, even if it’s sports, but then there’s news channels, and… It’s just not good.

0:26:50.1 Jordan Syatt: I hate when there’s… When I worked out in commercial gyms and there was a news channel on—I didn’t care which one. I don’t care if it’s Fox. I don’t care if it’s CNN—I don’t care. I don’t want to see that shit.

0:27:02.3 Mike Vacanti: No.

0:27:03.7 Jordan Syatt: I have no interest in seeing that shit. And it would put me in the worst mood.

0:27:09.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:27:10.1 Jordan Syatt: Because I have to look at the headlines. I’m trying not to look, I’m trying not to look. And then it’s just the worst shit all the time. They’re lying out of their fucking teeth, saying… Yeah, I hate when that stuff is in the gym.

0:27:26.8 Mike Vacanti: Even if it wasn’t biased, and take all of your, whatever, your objections to the current mainstream media are, and let’s just say it was reporting facts about what’s happening around the world. Most of the facts that they are reporting are sensationalistic in nature, are fear-mongering in nature. Even if they’re true, they’re meant to get a reaction, they’re meant to have people tune in, repeatedly tune in. And all of that bad news that you can’t have any impact on is not something that we’re built for to be consuming in general, let alone when you have one of your few hours during the week when you’re really trying to zero in on having a great workout. Mindset and headspace when lifting is so important. If you think about the greatest gyms you’ve ever trained at with the strongest lifters you’ve ever trained with, they’re not watching TV while they’re lifting. They’re locked in. And now I’m really hoping Jordan’s like, “Actually, at Westside, there were TVs everywhere.”

0:28:32.0 Jordan Syatt: No, there weren’t. They didn’t even have air conditioning. There was no TV at Westside.

0:28:37.0 Mike Vacanti: Good. 

0:28:38.0 Jordan Syatt: Good. [chuckle] We don’t even have mirrors in our home gym, and that’s deliberate. I’ve said for years… And people would say, “You’ll put mirrors in it.” I’ve said for years, I was like, “When we get a home gym, we are not putting mirrors in this home gym.” For a lot of reasons, but I think it’s very difficult to say, “Hey, when you go to the gym, your focus should be on getting better, improving your performance. Oh, and by the way, let’s also have mirrors so we can see how we look.” It’s like they’re competing demands. And there’s nothing wrong with wanting to change how you look. There’s nothing wrong with that, and there’s nothing wrong with admiring your changes in your physique. But I almost think about it like, as you’ve quoted The Iron many, many times…

0:29:27.1 Mike Vacanti: Henry Rollins.

0:29:28.1 Jordan Syatt: Don’t fucking look. Just go in and put in the work. And especially with my daughters, it’s like, when they’re in the gym, dude, I just want them to be like, “This is how strong I am, this is how fast I am, look at my performance.” I don’t want them being like, “Oh, well, how do my legs look? How does this look?” And some people are like, “Well, how do I check my technique?” If you’re checking your technique while you’re doing a lift, you’re doing it wrong. We have cameras. Put a fucking camera up, get your view from the side, get your view from the front, and then do the lift with lightish weight, and review your technique before you go to the next one. Don’t be looking at yourself in the mirror while you’re doing the lift. It’s a bad fucking idea. I don’t like TVs in the gym. I don’t like mirrors in the gym. You’re in the gym, you’re focused on what you’re doing, period.

0:30:18.0 Mike Vacanti: Clips Nation, baby. I completely agree on the wanting to be focused on performance. I especially agree, a lot of our conversation about plastic surgery last week, and steroids, etcetera, not having the focus be on how you look, and that being the main thing you’re focused on when you’re lifting, yeah. From a technique perspective, I do enjoy seeing myself on certain exercises. And yeah… Yeah, I suppose I could just take a video and watch the video afterwards.

0:30:55.7 Jordan Syatt: You’re also more advanced. I’m thinking about the beginner who will watch what they’re doing, and they’ll sit up and they’ll crank their neck.

0:31:03.0 Mike Vacanti: Like, turn their head to look. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [chuckle] 

0:31:04.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, they’re doing a barbell squat or whatever, turning their fucking spine with a load on their back. What are you doing? You’re more advanced. Maybe you’re doing it with curls or lateral raises or something…

0:31:15.0 Mike Vacanti: Yep. Yep, those are the exercises. Maybe like a seated dumbbell high rep overhead press or something. Yeah, but…

0:31:21.5 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly right.

0:31:24.7 Mike Vacanti: Especially for beginners, and especially for beginners who maybe are overly focused on aesthetics and body comp, yeah, Henry Rollins, “200 pounds is always 200 pounds.”

0:31:40.2 Jordan Syatt: Go in for, what? What it was like, a year? And don’t look at yourself for…

[overlapping conversation]

0:31:43.3 Mike Vacanti: Two years. Two years. “So I want you to lift for two years, and I don’t want you to take your shirt off. I don’t want you to look at yourself with your shirt off.”

0:31:49.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:31:50.9 Mike Vacanti: “And then after two years, you can look.”

0:31:52.0 Jordan Syatt: Might be the most underrated advice ever in all of fitness. Just fucking work hard for years. And don’t look at yourself. Don’t judge or compare yourself. Just fucking lift and get strong. And when you eventually look, it’s going to be wild.

0:32:06.7 Mike Vacanti: If you don’t know what we’re talking about, by the way, hit pause, pull up YouTube, and type in “Syatt, Vacanti, The Iron,” and watch the clip from this podcast where we read that. It’s incredible.

0:32:19.0 Jordan Syatt: Super good.

0:32:19.8 Mike Vacanti: And then come back and keep listening to the rest of this episode. 

0:32:22.7 Jordan Syatt: And five-star review it. [laughter]

0:32:27.0 Mike Vacanti: Dude, you sent me a hilarious Instagram video, and I don’t have Instagram on my phone, or didn’t when you sent it. And I watch whatever you send me. Whether it’s the “saying goodnight to your bros” trend or anything, I watch it in Safari…

[overlapping conversation]

0:32:44.0 Mike Vacanti: …and you sent me about wrestling had too big of a grip on us as a kid. WWE had too big of a grip on us. And it was this kid… [laughter] this 13-year-old who was going around school saying “Suck it” and doing the thing with the hands that we all did in middle school. And then it interviewed his parents and his dad’s like, “Everyone’s doing it. It’s not just him.” [laughter] But it was a very funny video, and I downloaded Instagram specifically so I could send the video to my really good friend from fifth grade and neighbor, Mike Spillman, and I DMed him the video, and then didn’t think anything of it. And later that day, just instinctively, finger-opened Instagram because that’s what I do when I have it on my phone. And I was laying there on my deck realizing I opened it. The first thing I see is a picture of Ben Greenfield.

0:33:42.0 Jordan Syatt: Oh, yeah.

0:33:43.0 Mike Vacanti: And in the background, he’s at the White House, and in the background is Trump after he got shot, doing the “fight, fight, fight,” and…

0:33:49.7 Jordan Syatt: A picture of Trump? Yeah, yeah.

0:33:51.0 Mike Vacanti: Yep, a picture of… Yes, thank you. A picture of Trump. And Ben’s holding the fist up. And dude, I can’t even control it. My eyes gazed down to like-to-comment ratio because that’s going to tell me how much drama there is on this post, right? If it’s got 20,000 likes and 17 comments, it’s like this is very well received. It had like 10K likes and 1,500 comments. So, I don’t know, coded in me maybe from years of creating too, I just like… This is coded in me. I’m like drama, and I click the comment button, and I’m just reading drama. And after reading five or six comments, and then I saw one real comment that was feisty, and it had like, I don’t know, 300 replies to that comment, I clicked to see more replies. [laughter] And within 40 seconds, I’m like, “Wait, what am I doing? It’s a beautiful day out. These people are arguing about… ” I don’t even want to repeat it, but these are like deranged people [laughter] who spend all their time on the internet arguing with strangers. And I was like, “It’s a beautiful sunny day. It’s Memorial Day weekend. I’m on my deck. My daughter’s taking a nap inside. I got my family around. How did I get here?” I was like, “Oh yeah, I downloaded Instagram to send Spilly that wrestling ‘Suck it’ video.” [laughter] Delete Instagram off my phone. Get me out of here. It’s poison. 

0:35:12.1 Jordan Syatt: Dude, it’s the worst.

0:35:13.0 Mike Vacanti: And maybe there’s something wrong with me that it’s like rubbernecking when you drive by an accident on the highway and you have to look. Maybe I could have scrolled past that to the next thing and seen something better. Something just had to see the juice of like, “All right, fitness dude posting a Trump thing. What’s going on below there? This is going to be interesting.” 

0:35:35.0 Jordan Syatt: Bro, that’s not you. There’s a reason why that was the post that you saw.

0:35:40.0 Mike Vacanti: But is it because Instagram knew me, or do you think a lot of people are getting shown that post?

0:35:43.8 Jordan Syatt: A lot of people are being shown that because it’s such an incendiary post, which like, okay, so people see that. Then they feel like they have to put their information, and they have to feel like they comment. Instagram recognizes they’re spending an insane amount of time on this one post, whether they’re commenting on it or reading the comments. So Instagram’s like, “How do I get more people to spend more time on the app? Let’s show them the posts that are getting the most engagement, the most back-and-forth.” So there’s a reason why your behavior mimicked the behavior of basically everybody who saw that post, which is why you saw that post. Yeah, dude, that makes 100% total sense. And I think you’re unlike most people in that you objectively, you were like, “What the fuck am I doing?” And then you deleted it and you got off, and you enjoyed the rest of the day.

0:36:31.1 Mike Vacanti: Took many years of wasting many hours to get a little bit of perspective.

0:36:36.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, it’s bad. Because it’s so easy when you’re in that moment to be like, “I’m fighting for humanity.” [laughter]

0:36:42.2 Mike Vacanti: No, you’re not.

0:36:42.9 Jordan Syatt: “I need to see what’s being said. I need to give my opinion on this post so everybody knows the truth. And then I will have done my job.” [laughter]

0:36:52.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah, yeah. “I am changing the world in these comment sections… ” 

0:36:57.0 Jordan Syatt: “…one Instagram comment at a time. And when people see what I have to say, that will change their mind.”

0:37:04.0 Mike Vacanti: You know what? I actually have more respect for it if people are in there battling in the comments than just people consuming the comments for drama. Because they actually… There’s way better ways to have a positive impact, but they’re at least doing a little something. I had no interest in commenting on Ben Greenfield’s post. [laughter]

0:37:22.8 Jordan Syatt: I haven’t seen his stuff in a long time. What a throwback, man.

[overlapping conversation]

0:37:26.0 Mike Vacanti: The last thing I saw, he was in the woods shooting a bow and arrow. I don’t know, but this was… [laughter] And he was doing peptides in, I don’t know, 2014. 

0:37:35.2 Jordan Syatt: Oh, really?

0:37:37.0 Mike Vacanti: Maybe 2019, but he was ahead of the trend on that one, for sure.

0:37:40.8 Jordan Syatt: Oh, wow. Is he part of the MAHA Movement? Is he in there with all these people?

0:37:47.0 Mike Vacanti: I think that’s what he was there for. I don’t know.

0:37:48.9 Jordan Syatt: Interesting.

0:37:49.9 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know.

0:37:50.9 Jordan Syatt: You got to look at, again, just objectively, what I’m seeing right now with the MAHA Movement specifically, is they are… What they’re doing very effectively—I don’t agree with a lot of the bullshit that they say—but what they’re doing very effectively is they’re using some of the biggest influencers in the health and fitness space, and inviting them to the White House. And they’re fucking… They’re including them, and they’re… Dude, it’s actually from using their ability to get information out to the public.

0:38:33.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. From a political perspective, good for them.

0:38:36.0 Jordan Syatt: It’s just, it’s an effective strategy to be aware of that what they’re doing really, really well. And by the way, if we’re looking at what… [chuckle] I didn’t expect it to go down this route. But one thing that I think Trump but also Vance did this really well leading up to the election is, they made use of these very large platforms. I think one of Kamala’s biggest mistakes was not going on Rogan. That was by far one of her biggest mistakes going into the election. And it looks like the Republican Party is very much using the influencers in social media not to… Yes, they’re putting out information that I disagree with, but they’re effectively using social media and people with large audiences in a way that I don’t think the Democrats have done in recent years. 

0:39:37.0 Mike Vacanti: It’d be interesting to see, for those who are paying attention. I know back when I was still on the Internet post-election, Newsom started a podcast and was having long-form conversations with people on the other side of the aisle.

[overlapping conversation]

0:39:49.0 Jordan Syatt: With Charlie Kirk.

0:39:50.2 Mike Vacanti: Yeah.

0:39:50.9 Jordan Syatt: You see he brought Charlie Kirk on there?

0:39:52.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, that had to be several months ago because I did see that.

0:39:56.1 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. He brought Charlie Kirk, which you can see Newsom is even now trying to distance himself from the very far left, because he said things that the very far left would completely tear him apart for. And even just having a conversation with Charlie Kirk would… 

0:40:14.8 Mike Vacanti: He’s very polished. He’s a very savvy politician.

0:40:19.0 Jordan Syatt: That’s a nice way to put it.

0:40:20.0 Mike Vacanti: He said things in that episode that are the opposite of the beliefs he held a year prior.

0:40:28.9 Mike Vacanti: Yes, yes, correct.

[overlapping conversation]

0:40:29.0 Mike Vacanti: So, yes, what you are saying about intentionally distancing himself from a different fraction of his own political party, probably makes sense.

0:40:37.0 Jordan Syatt: Yes.

0:40:37.2 Mike Vacanti: I couldn’t be happier to be checked out of this world of things that I…

[overlapping conversation]

0:40:44.7 Jordan Syatt: Performative politics. [chuckle]

0:40:46.0 Mike Vacanti: Well, performative politics, but really, it’s a bigger category of things that are going on in the world that are very entertaining, that I am not having a direct impact on, that are not enhancing my life and are leading me to be worse rather than better.

0:41:02.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:41:03.7 Mike Vacanti: There are people who are involved in politics who are really trying to make a difference. Respect. Amazing. Local, federal, state, whatever level. But I was just a consumer of the…

0:41:18.8 Jordan Syatt: All of the drama.

0:41:19.8 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, the drama. That’s right. That’s exactly right. Yeah.

0:41:23.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:41:23.3 Mike Vacanti: Should we fire up a little Q&A?

0:41:25.1 Jordan Syatt: All right, here’s one. Actually, from a long time ago one-on-one client. She said, “How are you balancing now that you have a whole family?” Which we could discuss. I feel like we sort of talk about it indirectly. But honestly, there is no balance. I have more balance now than I did years ago when I was just solely focused on business. But I really am at a point in my life where I don’t think balance exists in the way most people think about it. It’s not like 20% business, 20% family, 20% sleep, 20% nutrition. It’s like, I don’t think that it’s balance in the actual meaning of the word in that everything is equal. It is not equality among what I do in life. There are a couple of things that I hyperfocus on, and everything else either maintains or actually is on a slow decline. Right?

0:42:36.0 Mike Vacanti: Like your jiu-jitsu over the last 10 months.

0:42:37.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, exactly. Yep. My mobility, sharp incline. Jiu-jitsu, sharp decline. 

0:42:45.6 Mike Vacanti: Moderate. No, because…

0:42:46.8 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, because I worked so hard to get to a certain point, yeah. But the cool part is, when I restart jiu-jitsu, or now that I’ve restarted it, I’ll be able to get back to where I was significantly more quickly than if I hadn’t had a period of hyperfocus before that. So it’s like conjugate periodization for your life, where you… [chuckle] You know?

0:43:08.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah.

0:43:08.0 Jordan Syatt: It’s like you pick a couple of things that you hyperfocus on, and then you maintain everything else-ish. And then you do that, and then you switch to something else, and it’s conjugated periodization for life.

0:43:18.2 Mike Vacanti: It’s a great analogy. It is. I’m going to answer it slightly differently, and I’m just going to give something that I’ve been wanting to say for a while, which is… Do you ever hear the people talk about how… Many people over the years have said, “I was pretty successful in business, but then I started a family, and then I got way, way more successful in business.” I absolutely cannot relate to that feeling.

0:43:56.0 Jordan Syatt: [laughter] I completely agree, but keep going.

0:44:04.8 Mike Vacanti: From a practical perspective, when you are single and your hyperfocus is on growing a business, and everything you do in your life is focused on getting your business off the ground for your survival, for your well-being, you’re motivated from every angle, and you have all of your hours to focus on your business, all of your waking hours; and then you start a family, and you have a spouse, you have children, you have all of these other obligations that are pulling time away from you—actual time that you can’t be working—and also mental… There are only so many hours in the day. And so this actually shapes how I think about helping people in the mentorship or helping personal trainers listening who want to grow their business, which is, if you’re 23 and single and want to grow your business and you’re highly motivated, good. Work 100 hours a week and get that thing off the ground in the next two to three years. You could be in an incredible place. If someone reaches out who just quit their job who has a few kids, but now they’re a little bit older and they’re in school, maybe this person’s in their 40s, maybe they have done a little bit of in-person coaching over the years, they want to get their online business off the ground now, we have to taper expectations on the speed that you can grow that business.

0:45:31.1 Mike Vacanti: Because the people who have said, “Just start a family, that will make you way more successful in business,” in my experience, the opposite is true. I don’t understand how it can be true just from an hours-in-the-day perspective. I understand that, like, “Look, I have a new lease on life. I have new motivations. I’m not just working for myself. I’m working for other people.” I understand that there’s a mix of that that can be beneficial. But if you were working hard and had all of your time to focus on your business, and then you lost half of that time, let’s say, there’s no way that you can be better at building your business, or I’m just really not getting it.

0:46:12.0 Jordan Syatt: There are two groups of people that have a real advantage in terms of time. It’s either that young grinder, 22, 23 years old, whatever, no kids, just you can go nuts and work 100 hours a week; or as we’ve both seen, the older-ish, not like old but old-er, someone who their kids are either late high school or out of the house, and their kids are independent doing their own thing and their kids are like whatever… We’ve seen that, whether it’s Susan…

[overlapping conversation]

0:46:42.0 Mike Vacanti: Susan, yeah, I’m sure. Yep.

0:46:42.0 Jordan Syatt: We’ve seen it with Kim Schlag. We’ve seen it with a number of people who go hard. Tracy in the mentorship, right?

0:46:50.0 Mike Vacanti: Yep, yep.

0:46:52.0 Jordan Syatt: We’ve seen it with a number of people who are like, they’re on the older end—not old, older—and they’ve just got more time. And they fucking grind. But if you’ve got youngish kids and you’ve started a family, you can do it, but it’s like… What you and I were talking about before the podcast, a hypothyroid individual. They’re actually working from a disadvantage if their thyroid is underactive. And then giving them medication brings it back up to a standard level. You have a hypothyroid in that you’ve got time that you’ve got to dedicate elsewhere, and there’s no medication that will fix that. It’s just like you be with your family, be a present parent, be a good parent, and also do your best for your clients and your business, but also understand you physically cannot be a present parent and a good parent and also working 100-plus hours a week. That’s just, you can’t be present and working 100 hours a week. You can’t do that. 

0:47:50.7 Mike Vacanti: Period.

0:47:51.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:47:51.9 Mike Vacanti: Great question.

0:47:52.7 Jordan Syatt: Thoughts on nicotine patches?

0:47:54.1 Mike Vacanti: Oh, this came up. You brought this up to me recently saying that it’s become so much more prevalent and mainstream, and people commenting to you… 

[overlapping conversation]

0:48:02.7 Jordan Syatt: Dude, people are asking me about this all the time now.

[overlapping conversation]

0:48:06.8 Mike Vacanti: And I’ve seen…

0:48:07.3 Jordan Syatt: It’s the number one thing on my Q&A right now.

0:48:09.7 Mike Vacanti: Probably at least in the last three years, some of the scientific podcast people—Attia, Huberman—I remember in like maybe as early as 2021 but definitely 2022, were talking openly about nicotine usage and the benefits and kind of… For the first time openly discussing the fact that nicotine as an isolated compound doesn’t have the negative health consequences that tobacco has, essentially.

0:48:42.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:48:43.7 Mike Vacanti: And now you’re seeing it from all sorts of people asking you about it.

0:48:47.9 Jordan Syatt: Constantly asking me about it. It’s funny. I’ve even gotten nicotine companies reaching out. “Hey, can we send you our nicotine?” It’s like nicotine is now becoming a fitness product.

0:49:02.0 Mike Vacanti: It’s wild.

0:49:02.9 Jordan Syatt: Which is, to be honest, it’s very cool from the perspective of… We’ve seen so many things progress throughout our careers. And if we think about real people who’ve had real careers, I’m talking about the people who worked in the same place for 50 years, 60 years, the amount of time we’ve been in this industry is nothing. We’re just, we’re newbies, we’re babies. But it is cool to have been in the industry for about 20 years now and have seen so much progression and so much like, “Hey,” something that was completely outlandish to say is now like, “Oh, that actually makes sense. Now let’s discuss it.” So it is cool to see that. And it is cool to see that science is always progressing and we’re trying to learn more. From the nicotine perspective, I think the vast majority of people hear “nicotine” think immediately bad, in the same way that for a long time and even still today, the vast majority of people hear “strength training” and they think of Arnold Schwarzenegger. They don’t want to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Right? It’s like the immediate image that you have is bad, but it is, the way that you phrase it, isolating nicotine as a specific compound separate from tobacco. Cool. And now we can look at it.

0:50:17.2 Jordan Syatt: And what it does appear is that it’s actually very similar, not in terms of how it works, but similar in characteristics to caffeine. And that caffeine, if you do too much is, number one, obviously bad. Caffeine is addictive. Caffeine, if you stop using it, you get withdrawals. There are issues with caffeine, but it’s also, if you look at the research in caffeine and athletic performance, the literal only sport that I’ve seen in the research that caffeine is not good for is a sport that has anything to do with shooting—shooting long distances, like sniper shooting, biathlons—because when you’re sniper-shooting, you shoot in-between heartbeats. And so if your heartbeat is going faster from the caffeine, then it’s more difficult because literally your heartbeat can impact where the bullet is going to go. That little bit can make a big difference at long, long, long distances. So that’s the only sport in the research I’ve seen that caffeine is not good for. Everything else, caffeine massively improves your performance athletically in terms of your conditioning, in terms of power output.

0:51:35.9 Jordan Syatt: Then also the cognitive improvements from caffeine, right? Your ability to think better, all this stuff, mood enhancement, blah, blah, blah, blah. It appears that nicotine is very similar in terms of the potential for cognitive enhancement, the potential for potential performance enhancement. There is, seems to be, potential for neuroprotective benefits, protecting against degenerative diseases. These are all relatively preliminary, but it is very cool to see something that has been demonized because of what it’s associated with, is now being like, “Oh shit, there might actually be some benefits to this that we were unaware of before.”

0:52:13.2 Mike Vacanti: I am highly skeptical.

0:52:16.9 Jordan Syatt: Okay. That’s good.

0:52:18.2 Mike Vacanti: I haven’t gone deep on the research. I guess I haven’t thought about it enough for other people, only for myself. And I know my personality. And the one major downside that even people who are the most pro-nicotine admit is that it’s highly addictive.

0:52:37.7 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super addictive, like crazy addictive.

0:52:40.8 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know how to compare the addictiveness between caffeine and nicotine.

0:52:45.0 Jordan Syatt: I think it’s massively… I think nicotine is way more addictive.

0:52:48.7 Mike Vacanti: I’ve gone 30 days no caffeine before and been relatively fine. Whereas I see people who even when they quit cigarettes, can’t get off nicotine pouches, can’t get off nicotine gum. It’s extremely addictive. So, as someone who doesn’t have a nicotine habit, I’m not looking to pick up another thing, even if it’s a little bit neuroprotective, even if it might be a little bit cognitive-enhancing. You getting anything good on comparing caffeine and nicotine addictiveness?

[overlapping conversation]

0:53:28.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. I Google-searched, and the AI came up right away and I said, “What is the difference between caffeine and nicotine in terms of addictiveness?” And the AI overview is, “Nicotine is generally considered more addictive than caffeine, though both can cause dependence. Nicotine is a highly addictive substance found in tobacco, and it significantly alters brain function, making it difficult to quit. Caffeine, while it also leads to dependence, has a lower potential for addiction compared to caffeine.” So, yeah, it appears that nicotine is substantially more addictive, which would make total sense. People willingly go out of their way and spend a fuck ton of money to light tobacco on fire and inhale it into their lungs, along with how many other hundreds or thousands of chemicals…

0:54:19.9 Mike Vacanti: Because of the nicotine.

0:54:20.8 Jordan Syatt: Because of the nicotine.

0:54:21.9 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Yeah. I drink a half a cup of coffee per day. I drink between 100 and 200 milligrams of caffeine per day. And I know many people who have a tin of ZYN or Rogue or whatever, [laughter] whatever the Amazon knockoff, every day. [laughter] They have a tin every day. And by the way, I know people who drink eight to 10 cups of coffee a day too. So maybe, but I also…

[overlapping conversation]

0:54:48.9 Jordan Syatt: And have like four Monsters and da, da, da, da, da. Yeah.

0:54:52.0 Mike Vacanti: Dude, I don’t know anyone who has four Monsters a day for… I think four Monsters a day for multiple years is a death sentence, actually.

0:54:58.9 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree, because the caffeine. Yeah.

0:55:01.7 Mike Vacanti: Yeah. Because of the amount of caffeine. It’s very interesting. It’s very interesting. And we’ll see how it plays out over the years and decades. I think people who can use it in moderation and are currently using it in moderation and are benefiting from it, more power to you. Phenomenal. And I have no moral judgment against it. I think, awesome.

0:55:29.8 Jordan Syatt: You know what I would be really interested to see? What’s more addictive: Nicotine or behaviors around highly palatable foods? [laughter] Right? I would be very interested to see…

0:55:49.0 Mike Vacanti: I think those are closer together…

0:55:51.1 Jordan Syatt: …than caffeine.

0:55:52.0 Mike Vacanti: …than caffeine. 

0:55:53.2 Jordan Syatt: I think you’re right. I completely agree.

0:55:55.1 Mike Vacanti: I think maybe nicotine is more addictive. First, I think it depends on the person.

0:55:59.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

0:56:01.5 Mike Vacanti: But if we take large-scale population data, I would say that nicotine—just guessing, like gut-feel—is more addictive than highly palatable foods. But I think it’s close. And I think caffeine is decently far away from both of those two.

0:56:15.7 Jordan Syatt: Now, that’s purely addictiveness. What about detrimental effects when over-consumed? Highly palatable foods. It’s not even close. Hands down.

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0:56:27.2 Mike Vacanti: Yep.

0:56:28.0 Jordan Syatt: If we isolate nicotine away from tobacco so it’s just pure nicotine, highly palatable foods, and caffeine…

0:56:34.0 Mike Vacanti: 100%.

0:56:35.0 Jordan Syatt: Highly palatable foods is the most dangerous. 

0:56:37.3 Mike Vacanti: Unfortunately, Jordan, I’ve been on highly palatable foods since I was just a young buck. We’re talking 30-plus years, and I don’t have that nicotine exposure yet. I’m a big proponent of, if you aren’t with anything, if you haven’t tried it yet and there’s potential for negative outcomes and there’s potential for addictiveness depending on your personality and your makeup… I guess, just for myself, I’m a big proponent of, if you haven’t picked up that vice yet, don’t try it. Don’t test it and be like, “Hey, can I use this thing in moderation that some people can and some people ruins their lives a little bit?” Like, “Should I just test it to see if I can?” “Should I do heroin once? Maybe I’m the exception.”

0:57:23.9 Jordan Syatt: “I just want to try it.” [laughter] [laughter]

0:57:26.0 Mike Vacanti: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you raise a very interesting comparison there because, yeah, the negative health consequences of overconsumption of highly palatable foods have to be worse from a longevity and health span, right? So, functionality, even if you’re alive, how good are you from 70 to 90? How much can you do? Yeah, highly palatable foods have to be worse.

0:57:55.9 Jordan Syatt: Because we’re looking at essentially, we know which ones are… Nicotine is almost undoubtedly the most addictive. But then again, dude, anyone who’s interacted with someone who considers themselves to be addicted to certain foods, man, some of the amounts that they eat and the levels, from the wake up till bedtime, it’s all they fucking think about. They can’t eat other foods because it doesn’t taste as good as that. The addictive behaviors around highly palatable foods are debilitating. So either way. But then when we look at, let’s say, someone is overdoing it on these three, the overdoing it on nicotine and overdoing it on caffeine, I think caffeine might actually be more dangerous than nicotine in terms of the effect on the heart. I don’t know nicotine’s effect on the heart yet.

0:58:45.9 Mike Vacanti: I feel like with nicotine, there’s a… You get used to it. Right?

0:58:52.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah.

0:58:53.0 Mike Vacanti: I don’t know if that same phenomenon exists with caffeine.

0:58:56.1 Jordan Syatt: I think up to a point. I think up to about 400 milligrams a day is where it’s deemed to be safe. But after that, that’s when it can really negatively affect blood pressure. But also nicotine can negatively affect blood pressure. I think it’s a vasoconstrictor. It can have negative side effects as well. So it would have a negative impact on the heart. But I would actually… My point is, overall, someone who’s addicted to or their behaviors are addictive around highly palatable foods, overconsuming, when you have highly palatable foods, you end up feeling like shit, far less likely to exercise, gaining excess body fat, the downstream effects. Whereas generally nicotine and caffeine, “I feel better! Yeah, I’m moving! Feeling good! I’m productive!”

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0:59:36.0 Mike Vacanti: Appetite’s suppressed, you got energy, you’re taking steps… [chuckle] Yeah.

0:59:40.6 Jordan Syatt: “Oh-ho-ho, hey, let’s go socialize!” All bad. You don’t want to overconsume either any of them. But I would bet of those three, highly palatable foods is the most dangerous to overconsume. 

0:59:53.0 Mike Vacanti: Agreed.

0:59:54.2 Jordan Syatt: Yeah.

0:59:54.8 Mike Vacanti: I agree. That being said, if you haven’t started nicotine, just because it might not be as bad as highly palatable foods in outcomes, [laughter] isn’t like, “Oh, good. Why don’t I pick up this habit and get on like… “

[overlapping conversation]

1:00:07.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:00:08.9 Mike Vacanti: What do ZYNs cost these days?

1:00:10.2 Jordan Syatt: I have no idea.

1:00:11.0 Mike Vacanti: Between $4.30 and $10.19 in the US, location dependent. So we’ll call it seven to eight bucks a tin. People consuming a tin a day, which is on the high end, obviously, of users, 15 pouches a day, is, what did I just say? That’s like 50-plus a week, $200 a month. That’s a real expense.

1:00:32.2 Jordan Syatt: It’s a real expense. Yeah. All right. We’re live…

1:00:35.8 Mike Vacanti: Fascinating. 

1:00:36.7 Jordan Syatt: Sales’ live. Sales’ live.

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1:00:38.0 Mike Vacanti: Sales’ live. Go sign up.

1:00:40.0 Jordan Syatt: Apply. We’ll see. We’ll see.

1:00:43.0 Mike Vacanti: That’s true.

1:00:44.2 Jordan Syatt: We’ll see if we’re a good fit. [laughter]

1:00:46.7 Mike Vacanti: And if you didn’t listen to the last episode, listen to the…

1:00:49.3 Jordan Syatt: …last five minutes, yeah.

1:00:50.8 Mike Vacanti: …where we talk about people who are trying to make $600K in six hours, trying to get…

[overlapping conversation]

1:00:57.0 Jordan Syatt: We’re looking for two men between the ages of 28 and 29 making six figures. [laughter]

1:01:02.7 Mike Vacanti: Exactly. And just, the thing that I love about almost everyone, if not everyone, in the mentorship right now is the hyperfocus on wanting to help their current clients on getting better, getting healthier, getting them positive outcomes, not on “How can I have as many followers as possible so that I can be famous and feel good about myself, etcetera, etcetera?”

1:01:29.0 Jordan Syatt: Yeah. Love it. Love it. Amazing. Link to apply is in the show notes. Have a wonderful week. We’ll talk to you soon.

1:01:35.8 Mike Vacanti: Goodbye.